Florida Principal, Teacher Face Jail For Praying In School, Student Banned From Speaking At Graduation “Because she’s a Christian and might say something religious”

Students, teachers and local pastors are protesting over a court case involving a northern Florida school principal and an athletic director who are facing criminal charges and up to six months in jail over their offer of a mealtime prayer.


“I have been defending religious freedom issues for 22 years, and I’ve never had to defend somebody who has been charged criminally for praying,” said Mathew Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, the Orlando-based legal group that is defending the two school officials.


“The defendants all admitted wrongdoing,” said Daniel Mach, director of litigation for (ACLU’s) freedom of religion program. “For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to ’embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.’ “


In January, the Santa Rosa County School District settled out of court with the ACLU, agreeing to several things, including a provision to bar all school employees from promoting or sponsoring prayers during school-sponsored events; holding school events at church venues when a secular alternative was available; or promoting their religious beliefs or attempting to convert students in class or during school-sponsored events.

Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school’s May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

… read the full story at the Washington Times article School prayer charges stir protests

Something tells me the ACLU wouldn’t do very well in Barbados

no-prayerI lived and worked in the United States for a decade, in a small community in New Jersey and then in Brooklyn, but I will never understand the outright idiocy of the American courts in trying to regulate and curb every behaviour and opinion that some folks might find offensive. Part of being free is having the right to hold opinions and say things that some people might consider offensive.

Think about this folks… Can you imagine what would happen in Barbados if the court decided there should be no Christian prayers by anyone at any public function? That a student would be banned from speaking at a graduation ceremony because she is a known Christian and “might say something religious”?

Many of our youths aspire to go to the United States for a variety of reasons, most of them good. As people who have “been there, done that”, Shona and I know that life in the USA is quite different from life in Barbados – and not every difference is an improvement over living near, for instance, Grape Hall.


Filed under Barbados, Crime & Law, Culture & Race Issues, Religion

65 responses to “Florida Principal, Teacher Face Jail For Praying In School, Student Banned From Speaking At Graduation “Because she’s a Christian and might say something religious”

  1. Godless American

    Did you read the entire article? Or more articles on the matter?

    The principal was repeatedly warned to stop pushing religion in school. The school board issued a warning to him. Then, in front of school board members, he asked for prayer to be given at a school lunch function. He wasn’t praying by himself, he was trying to involve the school.

    Yes, that is criminal. Whatever your religion is, don’t push it on school children. I’m a teacher, I don’t tell students I’m atheist. I don’t tell them I think their god is a fairy tale. It’s not my business, and it isn’t this principal’s.

  2. BFP

    Bloody right, Godless American…

    Can’t have those Christians talking about religion in front of children. It interferes with the educational agenda of the leftist, Godless Americans!

  3. Godless American

    What’s disturbing is that you think it has to be one or the other. How about no one talks about their religious beliefs at all at school, hmmm. Then you can raise your children how you’d like, and I can raise mine how I’d like.

  4. BFP

    Totally right, Godless American,

    Let’s eliminate all values teaching from school!

    Oh… you don’t want that, do you? You only want the values eliminated that flow from Christianity.

    You also fail to acknowledge/admit that atheism is merely another religion where certain ideas must by held by faith because they cannot be proven.

    So how about EVERYONE talks about their religious beliefs at school?

    I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, won’t we?

  5. Godless American

    Oh, I’m open to that. I’d love to argue atheism at school. I’d love to assign papers asking students to give support and evidence for their assertions. Then, I could fail every single Christian student because they couldn’t give anything but the bible which isn’t a reliable source. Yeah, your way works so much better.

    As many Christians do, you falsely believe that values must be rooted in religious beliefs.

  6. Richard

    People should keep their irrational childish fantasies to themselves. Wow. Atheism is another religion. WTF. What smug pseudo intellectual hogwash.

    Exactly how backward can you be? What my dear intellectual are the tenants of Atheism, whom do aheist worship ? Whats the name/identity of the supernatural deity? What are are atheists morally obligated to do flowing from this “religion” ? Do all atheist “believe” the same thing?

  7. canadian

    BFP , I see you quote Mathew Staver a few times. Very colourful character .All part of the Jerry Falwell clan and one of the characters behind Sarah Palin’s ” death panel” claims …. this religious freedom thing..interesting.. I wonder if verses of the Quran could have been offered on a Friday at a PUBLIC school. btw Mr. Lay. the principal, is a Baptist deacon.

  8. Religious Atheism

    I see where BFP is coming from.

    If one cannot prove that God exists, it stands to reason that one cannot prove that God does not exist.

    Therefore it takes a certain amount of faith to hold either position.

  9. Jack Bowman

    Dear BFP folks,

    With all respect (I mean that sincerely; mostly I think you’re doing a grand job) …

    You say: “you also fail to acknowledge/admit that atheism is merely another religion where certain ideas must by held by faith because they cannot be proven.”

    Look … you can’t prove a negative (though there’s some interesting thinking on the more abstruse fringes of string theory). The onus is not on non-believers to prove that there is NOT an invisible guy in the sky. On the contrary, the onus is on believers to prove that there IS an invisible guy in the sky.

    Until that’s proven (and we’re at several thousand years and still counting), there actually are many people who would prefer it if their children’s impressionable minds were not filled with the picturesque creation myths of mostly illiterate desert nomads from the Bronze Age.

    Is that really too much to ask?

  10. BFP

    Hi Jack,

    Marcus here.

    We appreciate your support and always appreciate folks who disagree with us and make us think. Not every BFP staffer agrees with everyone else at BFP, especially on issues where there is a wide spread of opinions anyway, and I know that George especially doesn’t agree with the tone of this article. (hi George!)

    In response to your comments, I would respectfully point out that a real atheist is sure that God does not exist – just as sure about the issue as are those folks who say that God does exist. Therefore, according to your criteria, an atheist should be charged with proving that God does not exist, just as you state that someone who believes in God should be put to the test of proof.

    That is why I say that because of the limits of science and observation, it takes some faith to be an atheist because the position cannot be proven.

    An agnostic simply doesn’t know if God exists, but is open to both possibilities with more evidence.

  11. Jack Bowman

    Hi Marcus,

    Many thanks for your very gracious reply. This is an issue that tends to enervate people on both sides to the point that they lose all reason and become not only dismissive but also abusive (or, in some parts of the world, pathologically violent).

    In the end, I suspect that it’s a debate that will always be with us, until our sun goes supernova and the world as we know it really does disappear.

    In that light, I really don’t want to clog up your threads with pointless modern-day observations that our great-great-great-to-the-power-of-“x” grandchildren will still be debating ten thousand years hence. But I can’t help making a comment of staggering mundanity.

    If what you say is true (“because of the limits of science and observation, it takes some faith to be an atheist because the position cannot be proven … An agnostic simply doesn’t know if God exists, but is open to both possibilities with more evidence”), then I must ask a question …


    Why, in all the dentistry schools worldwide, don’t we offer an option on the Tooth Fairy? I believed completely in the Tooth Fairy for too many years. My parents, bless them, told me that the Tooth Fairy exists. All my friends at the time believed completely in the Tooth Fairy.

    Nobody has ever demonstrated, irrefutably, to my satisfaction , that the Tooth Fairy is nothing more than a quaint tale. Nobody has ever given me clear proof that my folks, with the best intentions, were lying to me.

    Next time I need very distressing root canal work, should I say to the alarming man in the face mask with the drill: “You know? I’ve had second thoughts. I think I’ll just leave this to the Tooth Fairy.”

  12. Godless American

    That is a common misperception of agnosticism. Agnostics believe that the human mind cannot know something like that, which by your definition would also take a considerable amount of faith.

    Furthermore, by your definition of faith and atheism, all atheists have to do is simply not call themselves atheist but say, “I don’t believe in god,” and then the onus is once again on the believer’s shoulders. Either way, Theists can’t prove there’s a tooth fairy, or bearded man in the sky, or whatever else they believe.

  13. BFP

    Hi Jack

    Yes, the debate God/No God/Dead God has been going on for a few weeks or so. 😉

    As for me, the question is complicated by my lack of faith…

    You see, I just don’t have the faith it takes an atheist to look at the world and the universe and say “Everything created itself out of nothing, with no plan or physical laws, no engineering and for no purpose.”

    I just don’t have enough faith to believe that, so I believe in God.

    Your mileage may vary… 🙂

  14. Jack Bowman

    You might be right. I was at the Bridgetown Market for Kadooment Saturday a few weeks ago. Someone had taken time to staple a lot of fliers to all the poles along Spring Gardens. Every single pole.

    These assured that the world will end in October next year. Now, I wish I’d taken one of them because they had an actual date and I can’t remember it. Could have been the 12th, possibly the 10th. I just can’t remember. Anyway, apparently, at some point in the first week of October next year, we’ll either be raptured or doomed.

    As one of the doomed, I want to say … Couldn’t they have made it a couple of weeks later? I’d planned a visit to Florence 20 October and I’ve already paid for the tickets.

    The whole situation is extremely disheartening. Do they have a ticket-return policy in purgatory?

  15. J

    No Jack. No refunds. Sorry.

  16. Richard


    You believe in god because you were indoctrinated as a child to believe in god. You would have believed in something else if you were raised in another part of the world or in another time.

    We don’t now know the original cause, what made something out of nothing, or if there even was a nothing. We do know that if we posit that complex objects (cars, computers) have a maker/designer (and they do) we will eventually regress backward to the ultimate maker, god. Unfortunately we can’t stop there, the next obvious question would be who made god. Don’t tell me, he was always there… right, that is satisfying.

    A century ago the list of things we didn’t know were much greater, with time, after we are long gone there will be answers to our questions now and to questions now that we cannot even pose due to our current knowledge. God will recede as knowledge advances. I can never understand how credulous scientifically illiterate people find it so difficult to say I don’t know, or we don’t know, or we don’t know yet but we are working on it.

    For whatever reason some humans need an answer to every question regardless of how absurd that answer is. Here is the answer for all seasons. God did it. Yes he did, you know why? I would rather have a stupid non-answer that invites an even bigger question than to have no answer at all – its what makes me human – that and my thumb.

    I for one live in Barbados as embarrassing as that is seeing the last few weeks’ comment pages in the nation newspaper. I will not allow my children to be indoctrinated by this infantile, retarding fairytale called religion. Not in anyway. The default position at birth is non-belief. Humans would continue through life fine like that had not for childhood indoctrination by parents. You would figure that god would have a more robust strategy, maybe a god gene or something…

    The idea that morals come from the bible or any other holy book is bullshit. Humans only discovered it was not a good idea to rob, rape and steal after they read the bible, yea… This is not to mention that the bible encourages and often mandates murder, rape, genocide, slavery etc. Good book you say; it sure is, once you cherry pick out the bad parts as society on its own changes and dare I say “evolves” to a more moral disposition.

    I am unclear about what faith is required to be an atheist. Does it take faith not to believe in fairies or trolls? Does it take faith not to believe in the thousands of gods that mankind dreamed up over the millennia? Does it take faith to not to believe that I am at Bubba’s having a beer with Obama? No it doesn’t.

    The fact is that skepticism is the default position, the starting point; well the sensible starting point anyway. It’s the sensible starting point for everything and every situation besides religion. Atheists generally don’t believe because they can see no reason to believe just as you can see not reason to believe in fairies, what’s so wrong about that.

    god did it! amen

  17. Jack Bowman


    Doubtless you’re a fine person.

    But it’s a little hard to take you too seriously when you become so abusive as to ask: “Exactly how backward can you be? What my dear intellectual are the tenants of Atheism.”

    Richard: if you want to speak on behalf of the invisible guy in the sky, at least learn the difference between a “tenant” and a “tenet”.

    Surely the Blessed Lord Jesus knew the difference.

    Bless you, child of Christ.

  18. Religious Atheism

    If there is no god, then how do I know if my actions are moral or not?

    If what is moral is to be defined by majority vote or discussion, what if I am in the minority?

    Would my actions then be immoral?

  19. Mugaffy Allamby

    Rapture is very good. It is EXACTLY what one needs to feel closer to creation and world love.

    Which is the reason for the word ‘wrapture’, without the ‘r’.

  20. Mugaffy Allamby

    But, if you are visiting ‘Florence’, then you should hope for rapture, so the poster is right.

  21. Mugaffy Allamby

    Prove that the Sun will go Supernova. Are you 100% sure? How?

  22. Richard

    thanks Jack

    either bad spelling, not paying attention or simply not knowing the difference, either way i got my point across for the most part. one could argue that the lord is a tenant ( of heaven…)

    anyway, it keeps you busy and thats a good thing

  23. PiedPiper

    Excellent, Richard.

  24. Richard

    a couple things, keep in mind i certainly dont have all the answers – after all i am not a christian..

    morals are usually in the context of the society. everybody was “moral” 100 years ago when they kept slaves for example…

    Today we acknowlege (some of us at least) that keeping slaves is not moral)

    i suppose you are talking about absolute morals that transcend time and culture like not killing, raping etc.

    Humans have an inate sense of what is right and what is wrong, giving and abolute edict that thou shall not kill for example is certainly not a moral statement. suppose you have to kill an atacker to save your family. would you be immoral then ? I dont think so…

    I can well understand what you mean by having a some kind of law to compare the action to. why not define moral as an action that causes no harm to a third party or in some cases the least harm.

    if your question is a sincere one there are a some books out there that will give you thoughts on this and other questions.. It doesnt call for you to suspend logic, reason etc or depend on accepting obscure “facts” from the bronze age.

    Finally (because i am in a hurry) it certainly isnt moral to be moral because you are in fear of being punished by god. morality is not only action, its intent. so sure, the thought of going to jail may stop someone from comitting murder, he/she is certainly less moral than someone that doesnt commit murder because he thinks its wrong to kill for no reason.

    PS. if i have any typos or bad spelling, try to get the point (if theres any) of what i am saying… its just easier that way. 🙂

    see the forest for a change !

  25. Jack Bowman

    There are sound reasons for thinking that what you term “moral” conduct confers an evolutionary advantage. Since evolution selects for the fittest, “good” behavior increases your survivability and makes it more likely that you will pass on your genes to a new generation. Even if that were not true, consider this …

    The Israelites have been wandering around the dunes for decades. They’re getting a bit annoyed with Big Moses and there’s no Chefette in sight. Not even a KFC. So Moze goes up the hill for a brief chat with his secret friend, Mr. God. Comes back down with a shortlist. Ten neat bullet points. Let’s call them commandments.

    Coming in at number 6 (not Party Monarch, but a decent runner-up): “Look, don’t kill people, okay? It’s not nice and it takes ages to get the stains out of the carpet.”

    Now tell me … do you really think that until Moze had his chat with the flaming shrub and got the bullet points, did your average Israelite wake up in the morning and think “You know? I think I’ll take the day off. It’s a nice morning. I’ll have some breakfast and then I’ll go out and whack someone. Nobody says I can’t, so I will. Then in the afternoon I’ll have a glass of wine and covet my neighbor’s ass.”

    Since time immemorial, most members of humankind have preferred to live in communities, not alone. Communities have rules, written and unwritten, that are understood, that ensure the survival of the community, and that have nothing to do with an invisible guy in the sky.

    The notion that I am “immoral” because I don’t believe in the guy in the sky is both preposterous and insulting.

  26. 1. “Who Made God? ” is not a trump question. The answer is simply, “We don’t know. ”
    2. To assume that theists are scientifically illiterate is to ignore the long and continuing list of profoundly theistic scientists whose work provides the foundations of modernity. The higher proportion of theists to atheists is significant among the world’s scientists. The giants in western thought, from Newton, LeMaitre, Mendel, Polkinghorne, and a number of Nobel Prize winners are among them. Einstein, who was critical of traditional views of God, made it clear that he was not an atheist, and was intrigued by the mind behind the order in the universe.
    3. Even if one is not particularly “religious” a belief in God is not irrational. Work in theoretical physics and quantum physics points to consciousness in the universe.
    4. Read Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness by Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner. Perhaps this will help readers distinguish between imaginative figures like the Tooth Fairy, trolls etc. and the profound realities that make physical existence possible.

    5. Science and theology are not incompatible disciplines. Brilliant scientists includingFrancis Collins, John Polkinghorn, Gerald Schroeder, Ken Miller, and many others working to make human life better through their discoveries, believe in God and are among the most rational people on the face of the earth.

    6. Philemon Pormont would be shocked at the developments in American schools and the case against the Florida school personnel. Since his students included some of the most important American statesmen ever, it might be significant to revisit the vision he had for education in this country.

  27. Jack Bowman

    Hi Marsha. May your god bless you. And may I wish you well in all sincerity.

    A few points …

    You say: “The higher proportion of theists to atheists is significant among the world’s scientists.”

    First, you have to define “scientist.” Does that include marine biologists, and biochemists, and astrophysicists, and mechanical engineers, and the guy who gives me my prescription for the old and endless football injury to my knee? Plus, what is your source for this data?

    Second, and I’m really sorry about this, you have to define “the world.” Does “the world” include Saudi and Iranian and Pakistani “scientists,” whose livelihoods depend on their overt profession of “faith”? (Just as the livelihoods of Cuban scientists depend on their constant and overt profession of loyalty to the now decrepit Bearded One.) Again, what is your data source? Are the data reliable, have they been tested, and can they be cross-referenced?

    Third, it would be untrue to claim that most US “scientists” believe in a god. Every respectable survey conducted in the past quarter-century shows the contrary to be the case.

    Fourth, you claim that: “Work in theoretical physics and quantum physics points to consciousness in the universe.”

    Could you provide some data from ANY (just ONE) respectable theoretical or quantum physicist to support that assertion? Thanks.

    Fifth, what Drs. Collins, Polkinghorn, Schroeder, Miller and “many others” choose to believe is of concern to nobody but themselves. Perhaps they are cruel to animals. Should we all, therefore, be cruel to animals?

    Sixth, if the “Philemon Pormont” you refer to is the same as the one whose work I know backwards, then he is one of the worst arguments for theism that I have ever encountered. Quite apart from the ludicrous turgidity of his prose style, the man was born in 1600. Should we still give leeches to cancer patients?

    All best wishes.

  28. Jack Bowman

    There are sound reasons for thinking that what you term “moral” conduct confers an evolutionary advantage. Since evolution selects for the fittest, “good” behavior increases your survivability and makes it more likely that you will pass on your genes to a new generation. Even if that were not true, consider this …

    The Israelites have been wandering around the dunes for decades. They’re getting a bit annoyed with Big Moses and there’s no Chefette in sight. Not even a KFC. So Moze goes up the hill for a brief chat with his secret friend, Mr. God. Comes back down with a shortlist. Ten neat bullet points. Let’s call them commandments.

    Coming in at number 6 (not Party Monarch, but a decent runner-up): “Look, don’t kill people, okay? It’s not nice and it takes ages to get the stains out of the carpet.”

    Now tell me … do you really think that until Moze had his chat with the flaming shrub and got the bullet points, did your average Israelite wake up in the morning and think “You know? I think I’ll take the day off. It’s a nice morning. I’ll have some breakfast and then I’ll go out and whack someone. Nobody says I can’t, so I will. Then in the afternoon I’ll have a glass of wine and covet my neighbor’s ass.”

    Since time immemorial, most members of humankind have preferred to live in communities, not alone. Communities have rules, written and unwritten, that are understood, that ensure the survival of the community, and that have nothing to do with an invisible guy in the sky.

    The notion that I am “immoral” because I don’t believe in the guy in the sky is preposterous and insulting.

  29. Jack Bowman

    Actually, my comment is not “awaiting moderation”. It’s awaiting someone to make a decision.

    BFP folks: it’s been a blast. All best wishes to you. I bid you adieu. Now I’m left with the laugh-out-loud subliterate racist dickheads on Barbados Underground, one of whom has said this:

    “I sure you are a Jew … Every time you post a message you are traceable down to the street and building you in. I WILL GET YOU. And I don’t waste my time making idle threats.”

    Quotes from Mr ROK on August 7, 2009 at 8:36 and 12:09 AM.

    It’s important to record that, because the mildly subliterate owner of Barbados Underground fails to comment on the unspeakable racism and threats to violence that he freely chooses to publish.

    All the best.


    It is regrettable to see what Copernicus et al has done to the thinking of mankind for most to believe there is no God…

    Paul C. Anagnostopoulos provides us with his own favorite hilarious quote from Guattari, in his “Chaosmosis” – which title is – in itself – a minor titter.

    Writes Guattari:

    “We can clearly see that there is no bi-univocal correspondence between linear signifying links or archi-writing, depending on the author, and this multireferential, multidimensional machinic catalysis. The symmetry of scale, the transversality, the pathic non-discursive character of their expansion: all these dimensions remove us from the logic of the excluded middle and reinforce us in our dismissal of the ontological binarism we criticised previously. A machinic assemblage, through its diverse components, extracts its consistency by crossing ontological thresholds, non-linear thresholds of irreversibility, ontological and phylogenetic thresholds, creative thresholds of heterogenesis and autopoiesis. The notion of scale needs to be expanded to consider fractal symmetries in ontological terms.”

    Bear in mind that this gobbledygook is actually intended to be serious work from a real scientist, folks.

    Can you imagine how convoluted it can get when this poor man tries to make a simple request?

    I’ll bet he can improve on this post-modern version – which I have created – of, “Please pass the salt”:

    “If your satisfaction factor is met sufficiently, I would be edified upon your eventual temporary, mechanically-implemented, digital (“hand”-referenced) transfer of the observed and indicated container of natrum muriaticum, in my direction.”

    Hey, that’s not bad at all! It’s unclear, muddy, overdone, and complicated.

    Maybe I can now say I’m a real scientist…?

    (Thanks for that Randi)***

    What a JOKE!!!

  31. Mugaffy Allamby

    Faith, firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

    By definition, Theists can only have faith in what they ‘know’, even without having what is labelled as ‘proof’.

    Also, Atheists cannot know of that which they have no ‘proof’ and no faith, because they do not ‘know’.

    Thus, Theists and Atheists cannot have common ground, they are by definition, distinct.

    Proof, something that induces certainty or establishes validity.

    But, the inherent requisites of ‘proof’ may be subjective, not objective, because all measures used are within established parameters that themselves are subjective, not objective.

    I submit, there is no such thing as ‘proof’ as an absolute.

  32. Mugaffy Allamby


  33. Mugaffy Allamby

    Well? Will the Sun go Supernova as you have submitted?

    If so, when exactly?

  34. Tell Me Why

    Breaking News: Bico is on fire.

  35. BFP

    Actually Jack, the computer grabbed your comment because it contained the word “dickhead“, “ass” but the moment I came on and saw it, I approved it.

    While we sometimes have jobs and real lives, we do the best we can to moderate comments as soon as possible.


  36. Tell Me Why

    BICO is on fire. Ice cream lovers might be on hold.

  37. No ice cream

    Bico still smoking as of 10:53 pm Bajan time.

  38. Richard

    Hi Marsha,

    I can only assume you are joking. If you are indeed serious, you need to read actual studies and from credible sources and not the religions versions of “science” and “scientists”. Sure what you said there sounds impressive but a lot and I suspect much more is demonstratively false. Einstein, sorry to say was, if not an atheist certainly not a theist. Too bad some readers will accept your submission just because of how it sounds… They will take in on faith, shall we say…

    Who made god certainly is not a trump question, it’s an honest, sensible question that even a 5 year old would ask. It’s a question that deserves an answer in the context of the claims that religion makes.

    I don’t assume that every atheist is scientifically literate and believers are not. I for one simply could never find a reason to believe. I went to church every Sunday from childhood but it simply never took. I had too many questions that all had the same answer: god did it, its too strange for our simple minds to understand; god works in mysterious ways…etc. You have to suspend too much rationality, logic and common sense to accept the doctrine. It simply does not make any conventional sense.

    There was a time when religious people were just content to say that it’s a faith thing. I am fine with that. They argued that science cannot answer every question and that there are things that exist outside of the natural world that are not testable by science. If it’s supernatural it cannot be tested by science. I personally have not read the book but I suspect that the credulous mind will see whatever it wants to see in whatever.

    Jack Bowman, maybe the right approach is not anger or ridicule. I will give you that. At the same time I don’t think the right approach is to be patronizing. That said, that’s a fine response to Marsha’s comments if I ever saw one.


    Please forgive any typos etc…

  39. Richard

    I get the distinct impression that Jack Bowman is a dawkins-hitchens guy. hmmm…

    Say it aint so Jack, say it aint so.

    “The fool has said in his heart, there is no God” (Ps. 53:1).

    For all the skeptics, naysayers, atheists, so-called scientists and others – PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR FORMULATION OF OUR UNIVERSE (“multiverse”, in other places) and provide your mathematical equation based on randomization theory and blatant conjecture…

    See if your matchbox brain can fathom the following:-

    Scientists’ quantification of the size of our solar system and galaxy may not be an exact determinant but doing the same with the universe is a much more difficult task—in fact, its actual size is unknown.

    All that can be measured is the visible universe (and even this value is not completely agreed upon). Generally speaking, it is thought that the visible cosmos is approximately 93 billion light years in diameter.

    Since each light year is 5.879 trillion miles, the diameter of the visible universe is 546,747,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles—546 billion trillion miles!

    It is impossible to fully comprehend a number of such proportions.


    How is this “simple” phenomenon to be explained by the “match-box” brains of humans?

    Well the answer is indeed SIMPLE – (A CREATOR)!!!

    “If you shrink our universe to a more manageable scale by reducing the Earth to the size of a grain of salt, making our planet 42.5 billion times smaller, at this scale, the diameter of our solar system shrinks to less than 600 feet and our galaxy reduces to nearly 14 million miles across. Even at this scale, the visible universe is still 12.9 trillion miles wide.”

    “If we could shrink our solar system from the Sun to Pluto down to the size of a single grain of salt, the Milky Way galaxy would be 24 miles in diameter—an easy distance to visualize. This still leaves the universe’s span at an incredible 22 million miles—about two-thirds the distance from Earth to Mars.”

    “If the Milky Way galaxy (in reality, nearly 600,000 billion miles in diameter) was reduced to the size of a grain of salt, the visible universe would be just over 915 feet wide—about the length of three American football fields.”

    HAVE YOU GOTTEN A PICTURE YET! (didn’t think so)…

    “What is lost in this analogy is the sheer mass of the Milky Way galaxy and how much reduction is needed to reach this result. In fact, this manageable cosmic scale would mean we have reduced the universe 3.2 Septillion times—or 3.2 trillion trillion times. Our solar system, never mind the Earth, would be smaller than a single hydrogen atom!”


    Astronomers state that there are countless numbers of solar systems. 9 planets revolve around our sun in our solar system and our solar system is approx. 6 billions across.

    Put in dollars & cents:- a $billion spent at a rate of $10K per day would deplete in 274 years & 7 months.

    Our galaxy called The Milky Way contains approx. 400 billion stars – and each star is a sun and each of the closest or nearest sun’s is 26 trillion miles away – and there is approx. 400 billion suns which has a family of planets and moons.

    Let’s assume each sun has planets at an average of 15 planets per sun, but a more conservative figure of 5 would be realistic given that our solar system has 9 planets.

    Therefore, if there are 400 billion suns per galaxy × 5 planets would be 2 trillion planets in (1) galaxy.

    It is estimated that there are 100 billion galaxies like The Milky Way. So can we conclude that if each galaxy contains approx. (a conservative estimate) of 2 trillion planets – then the number of planets within any given MILKY WAY system would be 200, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Septillion planets…

    No matter the scale, science is left with more questions than answers. The source of the universe, the way it is held together and many other facets are left unanswered because the true Source of the cosmos is ignored.

    The great Creator of all things, from atoms to galactic clusters, does everything for a purpose: “For thus says the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He has established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited…” (Isa. 45:18). The Creator of the heavens and Earth designed them to be “inhabited.” They had a special and distinct purpose.

    Notice: “For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible…all things were created by Him, and for Him” (Col. 1:16).

    For those who lack wisdom, turn to back of the Bible – the glorious book of “REVELATION” of JESUS CHRIST reveals what we will one day inherit, if we are faithful.

  41. art

    Dear Jack
    I have not recently been as interested in the blogs as many people around here, except concering their roles (not necessarily BFP but more the BU in terms of its promotion of xenophobia and a breading ground for local left wing Black Rock wannabes)

    but I find what you have written above to be somewhat disquieting. Can you please supply an actual documentary link to what is above?

    I would also recommend that you post the same link on the current thread on BU that the same person has been given, or on their ‘about us’ page.

    Thank you sincerely for taking the time to do this for me.

  42. Jack Bowman

    My sources say October next year. Probably in the first two weeks. Could be the 10th, possibly the 12th. I can’t remember the exact date, but I’m bringing my holiday plans forward, drastically.

    What can I tell you? If you go down to Spring Gardens, some of the fliers might still be stapled to all the poles there. My suggestion: buy heavily on credit immediately. Just go out and buy that Mercedes you’ve always wanted. Enjoy it. After October next year, I’m told, nobody will ever send you a bill.

  43. Jack Bowman

    @ art

    You asked a question above.

    I don’t know how to code hypertext on BFP, so I have to give you a reference long-form.

    If you cut and paste, search for “you are a Jew.” It’s at 12:09 on August 7 this year.


    I have to look for the second reference.

    All best.

    PS. My sincere apologies to Richard on this thread. I didn’t mean to offend, brother.

  44. Richard

    Yes Terrence,

    Ah yes… the argument from personal incredulity/ignorance… I can’t wrap my mind around it therefore God did it. We didn’t at one time understand germ theory, and countless other things that we do now. Fortunately, some people were not satisfied with just dying from things that could have been prevented.

    Instead, they did research, experiments etc and made discoveries that improved our lives. Thank god for those minds, for those people not content with darkness, superstition and ignorance.

    Maybe one day we will get the answers to the “Big” questions. We will however never have the answers to all questions. We can only pose certain questions when we have reached a certain threshold of understanding. What I will say though is that an answer that answers everything answers nothing.

    Why are you so sure your god is the true god? I am willing to bet you have your parent’s religion. Yes the one that was imposed on you before you had a chance to decide or consider the other options (you don’t usually buy the first car, you shop around). There are thousands of gods, can you tell me why you are sure you happened on the correct one?

    If the answer to you is that a creator, and not just any creator, baby jesus made all this I salute you. I am not even going to bother to ask who made the creator, since he would have to be much more complex than what he created. I wonder what a muslim or a hindu say about creation. God did it… yea I hear yah but which one!

    Anyway, I have grown tired of this now. Good luck everybody, Jack Bowman, no offence taken. Maybe we can discuss another topic in the future.

    god speed everybody and always remember, god did it because he said he did it. the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is….

  45. Jack Bowman

    @ Richard

    Quoting Richard: “I get the distinct impression that Jack Bowman is a dawkins-hitchens guy. hmmm… Say it aint so Jack, say it aint so.”

    It ain’t so. I’m a Sagittarius, but I’ve been thinking about conversion to Aquarius. Aquarians are SO much cooler. I’ll keep you posted.

  46. Richard


    You are certainly right Jack, Aquarians are much cooler, i should know, i am one. Jan 27!… Checking my chart horoscope now…. you know… for guidance….

    If you really are not a dawkins-hitchens guy and you have a bit of time and a dictionary handy i suggest having a look at the god delusion and the blind watchmaker… If you are looking for a bit of fun check online for Mr. Deity – there are some on youtube but there also mrdeity.com…
    Start here… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ieW__BbjHU. That one if really funny

    let me know your thoughts…

  47. @Richard –

    Your skepticism, doubts and even fears will do nothing to change the inevitability of what has already been established…

    I admire guys like you – it sure takes a lot of faith to believe that the Universe can be attributed to some random act of chance or some discombobulated Darwinian hypothesis which has made “fools” out of so-called intellectually versed individuals…

    The African-American maxim – “a mind is terrible thing to waste” surely applies to many of my astute and learned colleagues who remain blinded, trapped in scientific psycho-babble – guessing their way through a shallow, meaningless and unfulfilled life…

    BUT TO EACH HIS OWN!!! (or something like that)…

    If the evidence does not speak for itself – then nothing will…

    No one is knocking the “GOD-GIVEN” wisdom that has caused men to seek out new theories, inventions and discoveries which have been instrumental in easing the maladies which afflict human civilization…

    What is regrettable is that so-called great human minds relegate their knowledge and ability to the empirical formulas hashed out in the “hallowed” institutions of academia and learning. No credit is even given to the fact that God is the “ONE” is who inspires men and has built into our cerebral cortex “god-centered” greatness.

    But with the propensity for greatness – man has had 6000 years where all he has done is ruin planet earth…

    The time is almost up and what is coming down the train tracks many in our world are not prepared for even in the slightest…

    In the end, we will all see who is right and who is on the wrong side of the equation…

  48. art

    Dear Jack

    Thanks. I went and did it- here are the comments in their entirety. For documentation and historical reference:


    ROK // August 7, 2009 at 12:09 AM

    “be careful Bowman. You called me an amateur pornographer. let me paste it in for you. Your quote. “Quoting Mr ROK, amateur pornographer…”

    Negroman do you agree with Bowman that Mr. ROK is an amateur pornographer?

    let me fill in Mr Bowman because he obviously feel that he is staining or hurting my character. There is an NGO called the Gays and Lesbians, so it is not right for the leader of an NGO to be a Gay or Lesbian?

    but I sure you are a Jew. Just like foolbert if not foolbert himself. Don’t feel too safe behind your pseudonym because every time you post a message you are traceable down to the street and building you in. I will get you.”


    ROK // August 7, 2009 at 8:36 AM


    I am not going to tell you again, but when you see a man fishing in a dry pond, he knows what he is doing. Retract what? Did I speak an untruth when I told him that he is traceable?

    The next time he come, he embassy job may be in jeopardy. He come here threatening me and you telling me foolishness. Is that because he white or you sense that he white?

    So we must continue to be bullied and threatened in our own country and we should shut up like idiots? The same way he free to threaten me I free to threaten him too; only I don’t waste my time making idle threats.

    He want war? This is war. I got he lined up already, you wait.”


    I personally interpret this as someone threatening someone else with death.

    In other words, a death threat.

    Whether or not he would actually do it, I feel he would like to. And that is insane== because no one has done him anything…

    Maybe BU take this lightly and nothing unusual, all in a day’s work; but I think it borders on the criminally insane… yes, I do agree with you it requires address, ,redress, whatever. Will it happen. No!

    And that part about: ‘I feel you are a Jew’, and: ‘I got you lined up’; well what can someone Jewish say. Maybe this is his version of the ‘Jewish solution’, or maybe a desperate gamble at gaining the upper hand with terminal lack of confidence and/or self-esteem.

    In any event his is insane extrapolation, even trying to be understanding to his issues.

    Jack, you don’t get anywhere in Barbados this way. I know, have lived here all my life. It like it will get worse. On the other hand although many comments on BU, it is only a few people, so I feel also could really be a shriek of a slow death knell. While BFP eases out of existence, BU fireballs.

    Maybe like the Nazis though, so one should be careful.

    Be careful. He might actually do you something, and Bango also has lots of weird friends. There’s something going on there that he and BU probably know together.

    I hope people who could actually care are looking at them, people like Mr. Wishing in Vain, who can if they wish see after their brothers’ peaceful enjoyment, whichin is we people who does work and respect all their peers, regardless of their groupings and/or origins.

    Does that responsibility to care for others apply to Bajan Jews and other minorities, or do we live a propaganda facade on these DLP blogs for the sake of power?


    Don’t answer that.

  49. Anonymous

    And so you should be “disquieted”, art. I can assure you that Jack quoted a direct post from BU, saw it with my own eyes. BU is the cradle of xenophobia where there is precious little honest debate.

  50. Richard

    Hi Terrence,

    You really dragging me into this… You are cutting into my sinning time. Lets go:

    Your first line about what has already been established. I am lost please explain.

    Admiring guys like me… you don’t know me, what am I like? Are you…… Terrence! Are you….. Are you JUDGING me? WELL I NEVER!!

    We don’t have an answer for how the universe started. Darwinian evolution explains diversity of life it does not explain the original cause, nor does it seek to.

    Indeed, a mind is a terrible thing to waste. We agree on something, maybe we can have a beer sometime…

    Right, once I don’t believe what you believe (and your particular version of what you believe) I cannot have a fulfilling life. Ok. If you were a true Christian (By Christian I mean all the nice bits about loving thy neighbor etc.) you would not gloat about my unfulfilling, miserable and meaningless life, you would offer me kind words and pray for me. When you start wishing for my death etc. Then I will know you actually read the entire bible and not just the nice parts…

    Evidence of what exactly? That the sun is a man on a chariot and evil spirits causes sickness? Please explain further…

    Mankind existed before Christianity, god waited quite late to let us know he existed and to inspire us to seek “discoveries”. Too bad the first humans didn’t get that chance, just does not seem fair to me.

    Right, empirical formulas, academia, learning. All the bad stuff, so worldly. The next time you get sick go to your pastor, the next time you need to get to another country make your own plane out of matchsticks and pray it flies. Don’t bother with all that mumbo-jumbo science crap. You just need faith.

    A minute ago you said that god inspired men to do blah… now it turns out that man destroyed the earth… do you see where I am going with this Terrence? Whatever mankind is polluting the earth with came from the earth. That means god put it there and that means he gave us the “inspiration” to use it. That’s some design god!

    Yes, time is almost up. And you can’t wait for that, can you. You can’t wait for your fantasy revelation to come and millions and millions and millions of your fellow creatures are burned and killed. Burned in everlasting fire for having a different opinion, or not being baptized, masturbating or being gay, or being a witch, or being black (Mormons) or working on the Sabbath. Indeed Terrence, indeed…

    Yes, Terrence, we will see. It’s all just a game to you, a challenge. You are right and I am wrong and one day we will see. Ha! Richard, look at me in the garden while you are burning in the lake of fire. Spare me a thought when you are in heaven, spare us unfortunate ones a thought.

    I realize this is not a very spirited rebuttal, but it was a long day at work, I am tired. I think I am entitled to a little sin this evening…I worked hard today… What shall I do…hmmm, decisions, decisions… Oh s###, I just sinned by thinking about sinning…


  51. Mugaffy Allamby

    The blog referred to appears to have some good topics to discuss. Sadly, when one reads the discussion, apart from a few commentators, the blog is coming across to readers as being frequented and dominated by cranks and fringe lunatics and very few new commentators, possibly as a result.

  52. @ Richard (permit me to call you “RICH”) – I feel as if I know you…

    Let’s clear up some misconceptions:-

    (1) I am in no position to judge you or to inspect your fruit (that’s the J.O.B. of Christ Himself)…

    (2) Whatever choices an individual makes – will be based on what has been given them, in terms of light and how they have lived up to it, i.e. “to him that much is given, much is required”…(NO EXCUSES)

    (3) My beliefs, convictions or religious persuasions cannot and is NOT to be imposed arbitrarily on anyone in the hope to wean them away from their established position. The reality is simply that NOT even God CAN* change the heart or mind of anyone, unless they choose to – (it is called free moral agency)…

    (4) My belief in God is based on “One Man” called and named “JESUS THE CHRIST”*… (For no man has seen God and lived to tell)… Jesus reminds us that “if we have seen HIM” – we’ve seen the FATHER”!!!

    (5) I agree with you wholeheartedly that “LOVE THY NEIGHBOR” is more than an age old maxim – it must be a lifestyle!!! Sadly, to quote Mahatma Gandhi – ” “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    (6) We agree that 2000 years of Christianity has been an abysmal failure in “almost” every sense of the word… (It certainly isn’t what Christ inaugurated during the 3 & half years of His prophetic and Messianic ministry).

    (7) Finally, HELL* is as real as HEAVEN*** will be… The fire and brimstone hell of Revelation 20:10 is not as many have interpreted. The fire will consume all that goes in there and when the fire has made ashes of its content – IT* will go out.

    Finally, we look forward to EDEN restored. A NEW HEAVEN (a completely renewed galaxy) and a NEW EARTH wherein “righteousness” will dwell.

    I can’t wait BRUV*….

    God bless you…

  53. Are you seriously questioning the credibility of Bruce Rosenblum or Fred Kuttner? Do you not know who they are? Have you read any of the current works in theoretical physics? Do you know the names of Kaku or Greene? These people certainly are not pushing a religious/theistic agenda, but their work is pointing toward what even they call “weird” and unexpected evidence of consciousness. This does not have anything to do with promoting religion but about the nature of the universe itself. If that is not of scientific concern, then what is? I for one certainly care what they think in this regard. If you bother to read Quantum Enigma, you will find all the data you ask for. Don’t be lazy. I have given you a fantastically good starting point if you are interested in exploring hard data. Anyone interested in the these topics ought to stay abreast of the developments in physics and leave the smirking to those who don’t want to be bothered with facts. You want the bumper sticker version of physics, but I am suggesting the work of Kuttner and Rosenblum as highly accessible work even for those with no background in physics. ( By the way, my son graduated from one of the top U.S. schools for nuclear physics. We have some high standards for what we consider science in my house. )

    The reference to old Philemon Pormort is to lay some groundwork for encouraging an examination of the history of American education. I mentioned him simply as a first American public school teacher in case anyone was interested in the history of the tension between religion and purely secular concerns in education. I was not holding him up as a model of modernity, but as an instance of precedent for going back for centuries.

    The “world” includes everyone and it includes the ideas those who have gone before who helped shape it. ( I am not an elitist who thinks only people in the West matter. )

    Since Polkinghorne, Schroeder, and Collins are writing some terrifically good books on both science and theology – and people are buying and reading those books – clearly their ideas are of interest to others besides themselves. Thanks for this opportunity to plug Quantum Physics and Theology by John Polkinghorne and The Hidden Face of God by the highly regarded MIT trained physicist, Gerald Schroeder. The geneticist,Francis Collins is former head of the Human Genome project. These men are among the leading scientists in the entire world. Collins’ book, The Language of God, is also one that is full of the data you asked about. Once again, I don’t have a bumper sticker for you, but these are fact based books that I highly recommend.

  54. Richard


    You can call me Rich if you want, I don’t have a problem with that… I have to be honest. First of all, none of what you say makes any sense. Christian babble simply never does. The more deep the diatribe, the more the faithful nod and feign understanding. Its pretty much speaking in tongues to me, and I suppose to most people, including the speaker. Making any sense in English is optional it seems, discouraged I am sure.

    You need to come to grips with your own mortality; no amount of self-deception and wish thinking will save you. You will not survive your own death. Get over it, embrace reality, enjoy life, have fun. There is a passage by Richard Dawkins that I like, hopefully it can bring you the same feeling that it brings me, I mean that sincerely:

    We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.

    Richard Dawkins

    I can’t help but to believe that you are someone that is just making fun at me, taking the piss as the English would say. What you are saying I find so incredible. You seem positively brain washed and closed minded. Not aware of reality. You are so sure of what you believe, that frightens me a great deal. Absolute certainty is not a virtue by any stretch of the imagination. Absolute certainty breeds suicide bombers, terrorists, abortion doctor killers etc.

    I understand that I am not changing your mind here; you aren’t open to reason, not susceptible to logic. Its almost like you are a zombie, completely brainwashed, completely not in control, completely not thinking straight. I am incredibly afraid of Christians, I am. Not the casual Christians, the ones like you (from your writings, I don’t know you). I think that a person that makes decisions based on voices in his head is incredibly dangerous. People like that are capable of anything, any whim; right and wrong does not factor into their minds, its just gods capricious will, whatever that is at that time.

    I have seen what people are capable of when they seriously and honestly and soberly believe what they believe. Luckily I have not experienced it myself but I am close to someone who has. There simply are no limits, any and everything can be done in jesus name. It’s like when Jippy Doyle was convicted and people in the courtyard were chanting, make way for the king. Not a thought was spared for the little girl. In the US a couple weeks ago someone shot an abortion doctor, in jesus name mind you, and in a church.

    If you in your submissions substituted another name instead of jesus, and took out anything that would let the reader know you were a Christian, any person reading that would think you were insane. I personally, think you are, or at best you have a mental condition. You cite me by name therefore I assume you are responding to what I wrote but there is no response, its just for the most part a rant, a talking point, incoherent. I don’t know man.

    I made some fun of you in a previous post. I would like to apologize for that. I feel badly now.

    Hang in there,


  55. Law School

    To the atheist who attempted to quote one of the commandments, the correct translation is murder. And, you should know from history that “might makes right” was typically the way things worked. Even in our current state of affairs, might makes right in a good portion of our world. It’s not something that was a given. Obviously you have never ventured outside the modernized areas of the world.

    To the Christians posting on here: Why are you so upset? If you are a follower of eschatology you should be content with this, knowing that these things are a natural progression of the plan. Be at peace that God will protect you and strive only to preach the message in a peaceful way. Should you boast because you are a believer? Certainly not. By the grace of God alone are you saved. Not your hand, but his. Be at peace my siblings and pity those who are deceived. If your message is received with contempt or hatred, do not attempt to fight against those who persecute you. Give your message and move on. Those who want the message will take it. Those who don’t, won’t.

  56. Richard

    My bible says kill, i checked. You are cheating. You get to change words to suit yourself.

    Traditional translations of this phrase into English have tended to use the word kill. Certain scholars have suggested that this is not the most accurate translation. The key phrase, often translated “to kill” (rasah), began in the twentieth century to be translated “Thou shalt not murder,” is seen in newer translations of the Bible such as the New Revised Standard Version.

    Common tactic among you types. There are tons more examples of this, virgin vs young girl i think is one… Its an attempt to make the good book less brutal and less ridiculous as it attempts to keep pace with civilization… There is also a commandment about my slaves and the sabbath… yea.

    Your argument is as folls:
    Either my understanding is wrong and yours is right. I am reading it wrong, or i am using the wrong bible.

    No i have never ventured out of the modern parts of the world, i am sure you have though. Even though i do not get why that would change anything…

    I take it that by modern you mean high speed internet etc. I am sure by some standards the caribbean isnt modern. Maybe you should define what you mean by modern… Modern ideas, modern legal systems, gender equality etc. or do you just mean high speed internet?

    By the way, either you or terrence can take this up, what will happen to be eventually. I take it you all have noticed that i dont share your worldview, I am not going to say i am necessarily an atheist (i hope i didnt say that earlier 😦 ) but what will happen in the end to people like me?


  57. @Richard

    All is forgiven.

    The wisdom of God is foolishness to men…

    My pray is that you have a Saul on the road of Damascus experience…

    Only then will you know and find God for yourself…

    You see Rich, this is not about me – this is about Christ…

    Beyond on that my friend – ranting and raving, exercises in meaningless verbosity solves precious little…

    And I’ll give you the last words….

  58. Richard

    Hi Terrence,

    Ok, i guess i will sign off here until next time. Good luck and take care.


  59. Richard

    hey Mr Law School. You may want to read the Nation News paper of 04-Sep-2009 Page 19 Best Selling Version of Bible being revised….

    Note the changes being made to it, well some of them, who gets to decide what interpretation is the correct one ? You? dont think so… Unfortunately you will not get the point of what i am saying so suffice with the fact that the bible language and god knows what else changes with the changing zeitgeist… its just a few centuries behind though…

    Good Luck!

    And good luck with law you should do well in that field in barbados, you obviously have the correct attitude and obvious eruditeness to be successful. PS i am planning to do law next year so maybe we will meet sometime.

    forgive any spelling errors


  60. Mugaffy Allamby

    And how do YOU propose to prove that God does not exist?

    Go ahead Einstein, prove it.

  61. Mugaffy Allamby

    That was for the blogger titled ‘ Godless American’.

  62. Mugaffy Allamby

    Your sources? Or faith in your sources?

  63. Godless American

    Yes, again the false claim that it is the unbeliever’s responsibility to prove there is no god.

    There is no evidence of a god. More important, there’s no evidence that supports one god’s existence anymore than some other god’s existence; both lack evidence.

    You have a book. A poorly written, repeatedly edited, multiple version, translation of a book. A book that contradicts itself, that makes continuous errors of fact, and yet is supposed to have been written by (or under the instruction of) your god.

    Yes, yes, Mugaffy, it is up to me to prove there isn’t a god.

    Oh, I believe in god. He’s an invisible, mean tempered god that’s actually sitting right next to you. He doesn’t like it when you worship other gods before him. Quick, guess the right god or you’ll worship the wrong one and he’ll smite you. LMFAO!

  64. = D happy to hear you have a bible richard, i was surprized you knew alot of it. i’ll probably never come to this place again, just doing research but yeah, at least someone is being persecuted just like Jesus did they would be cause of Him in the last days, this story was a good example of it ; ).
    godbye everyone, take care, and God bless you all.


  65. Zach

    According to the dictionary, Religion is a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held with faith. Evolution is a principle that cannot be proven, it is based on faith as much as any religion. Until it can be “proven” I rest my case.