American Baptist Missionary Says Bajans Easygoing And Friendly, But “Apathetic” Towards The Gospel

Missionary Richard Dukes In Barbados

Missionary Richard Dukes In Barbados

American minister Richard Dukes and two friends spent a month in Barbados this past June helping out missionaries Rick and Cindy Jenkins – working at the day care center and doing door-to-door preaching.

The local paper where Dukes lives in Eufaula, Alabama has just published a very positive article on his impressions of Bajans and Barbados. If we want to see what folks around the world think of us, never mind what the politicians say. Ask the ordinary people.

Minister Dukes and his friends are welcome to return to Grape Hall anytime.

Just don’t expect BFP’s George to get too excited about the bible anytime soon. Auntie Moses? Well… that is a whole different story!

Eufaula Tribune: Youth Director, Youth Visit Barbados

171 Comments

Filed under Barbados, Barbados Tourism, Religion

171 responses to “American Baptist Missionary Says Bajans Easygoing And Friendly, But “Apathetic” Towards The Gospel

  1. CENTIPEDE

    There are three ‘things’ that Bajans ALMOST only follow up: 1. dressing up and looking pretty 2. partying and 3. going to church. Not necessarily in this order.

    All these are essentially social activities.

    The sky pilot is right ~ most Bajans are “Apathetic”
    Towards The Gospel. “Going to Church” is the ‘right’ thing to be seen doing. But living the Gospel Life is way, way on the back burner for most of them.

  2. Pablo

    The majority of the human race is apathetic to religion of any kind. I did not say agnostic or atheistic. Most people just want to look after themselves and their families and have some enjoyment in life without the often irrational dictates of religious institutions.

    I think missionaries are much more needed in the USA or Europe in particular where church attendence is very, very low.

  3. Thomas Gresham

    I went up to London earlier this year with a family friend. I thought he would be wowed by the dinosaur exhibit at the Natural History Museum as he had not been out of Barbados before, so I took him there with my kids. He was very silent and as we were exiting the exhibit I asked him what he thought about it. He said that all the fossils were all fake because the Gospel says that the world is only a few thousand years old, not the hundreds of thousands of years that the carbon dating said the dinosaurs lived and if dinosaurs were real there would be no people left……etc. I was shocked and a little ashamed of our schools. It would seem to me that too many Bajans are following the Gospel too closely and literally.

  4. Happy To Say

    Minister Dukes and his friends sound like yet another set of bible thumping “wear it on your sleeve” “God botherers”.

  5. Jason

    The world is a better place for people like Minister Dukes. I have found Bible thumpers will help where others don’t or won’t. They usually do no harm either not like other people who try to “help” and tear down instead.

  6. Anon27

    Why should should Bajans care what an American preacher from Alabama thinks about them? When will Bajans stop defining themselves and their culture by the standards of other nations and in particular the U.S.?
    Mr. Dukes efforts would be better served in his home state of Alabama which has a drug epidemic with crystal meth being rampant in the white, middle class.

  7. Eddie

    Thomas,
    Like religion, a lot of what is passed for “scientific fact” is based on conjecture.
    The Christian world calls it faith.

  8. J

    Dear Thomas:

    Re: your friend who thinks that the dinosaur bones are fake. Rest assured that your family friend did NOT learn the “dinosaur bones are fake” story in a Barbados public primary or secondary school. He likely learned that nonsense in a fundamentalist “Christian” church or Sunday school.

    My children, my many, many siblings and I have all been educated in many of Barbados primary and secondary schools from 1957 until the present and I can assure you that none of us were taught at school that “dinosaur bones are fake”

    Barbados public primary and secondary schools strive manfully (ok, ok, maybe womanfully) to open the minds of the children in their charge. But unfortunately the schools are not always able to undo the brainwashing imposed by ignorant fundamentalist pastors.

  9. Anon27

    Barbados does not need to get messed up with ultra right wing religious fundamentalists, which I strongly suspect this fella Richard Dukes is one of. These people, with Geroge W. Bush as it’s leader, currently control U.S. government politics and policies and has led to a steep decline in the world’s respect for the U.S. It has taken the U.S. into a dishonest and deceitful war that has cost the country trillions of dollars and more importantly, thousands of lives, both American and Iraqi.
    Barbadians, as a whole, still hold strong Christian beliefs and don’t need anyone to tell them how to practice their beliefs as a peaceful nation.

  10. Georgie Porgie

    Pablo though church attendance is very, very low in Europe, but there are many mega churches in the USA that are filled to capacity weekly.

    Barbados needs missionaries like every where else on the globe….and more than ever.

    Thomas Gresham opines that It would seem to me that too many Bajans are following the Gospel too closely and literally.

    How does one interpret or follow Skakespeare or the Nation? Literally.

    How does one interpret or follow the Bible? Literally.

    When it says They got in a boat and went over to the other side; that is what it means.

    When it says that the peace of God that passes understanding shall keep your hearts and minds through Jesus Christ, it means literally that the peace of God that passes understanding shall keep your hearts and minds through Jesus Christ.

    If you read the text in its context you will further realize that it is saying that the Bible is a powerful anxiolytic! Something that all serious stupid Fundamentalists know to be a fact!

  11. Georgie Porgie

    J
    Like you I was educated in Barbados, and even won a Barbados Exhibition. At no stage in my primary or secondary schooling including HC were we taught about dinosaurs. Nor did I learn about it when I was an Anglican, nor in any fundamentalist “Christian” church or Sunday school that I have attended anywhere in the World.

    I have also read the Bible extensively and hold a DMin. I also believe that the “dinosaur bones are fake.” Dinosaur bones is a non issue and there existence can not be proven.

    What is wrong with a fundamentalist “Christian” church or Sunday school?. Kindly define what an ignorant fundamentalist pastor is?

    I have been preaching since I was 17, and have read widely the literature about the Word of God. I find that teachings about dinosaurs is not relevant for salvation. I learn that there is none other name given among men whereby you must be saved than the name of Jesus.

    @ Anon27
    Whereas Bajans should not care what an American preacher from Alabama thinks about them, and whereas Bajans should stop defining themselves and their culture by the standards of other nations and in particular the U.S. we need to know and abide by the tenets of the Word of God- something from which we have departed.

    Whereas there is crime in Alabama of the sort you describe. The same crimes are practiced in Barbados. Mr. Dukes was within the teaching of the Great Commission to engage in a missionary trip to Barbados.

    Do you have any idea of the number of Bajans who preach in evangelical churches in the USA. There are more Bajans preaching the Word in the USA, than they are Americans preaching in Barbados.

    Barbados does not need to get messed up with ultra right wing religious fundamentalists, but they do need to establish a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ before his imminent return at the Rapture!

    Barbadians, as a whole, are very religious but most Bajans have not really studied the Bible, nor can they rightly divide it. Bajans really do need to know and understand what the Bible says about current events and those to come.

    Whereas it is true that Geroge W. Bush might have taken the U.S. into a dishonest and deceitful war that has cost the country trillions of dollars and more importantly, thousands of lives, both American and Iraqi, perhaps God has used this error as part of his chastening of that nation, and as part of his plan to revive the Roman Empire prior to the Great Tribulation as predicted by the prophet Daniel.

    Look at what is happening to the north of Israel with Iran & Russia.
    Look at what is happening to the east of Israel with the rise of Nations like India China and Japan.
    Look at what is happening to the south east of Israel with the rise of muslim Nations.
    Look at the resurgance of the Revised Roman Empire to the west of Israel.

    Compare this with the prophesies of Ezekiel and other prophets on the endtimes, and think about it.

  12. Rohan

    Christianity:
    The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in all humanity because a rib-woman (you know it had to be a woman) was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree…

    hmmm not for me. But thanks.

  13. J

    Dear Georgie Porgie:

    Where did you earn the DMin?

  14. J

    Dear GP:

    I said that the “dinosaur bones are fake” story was NOT taught in any Barbados public primary or secondary school.

    I did not say that anything about dinausaurs was taught in the schools.

    And I was talking about the period 1940 (not 1957) to the present when I had a sibling, child, niece or nephew in the system.

  15. J

    But I have heard from some of my fundamentalists friends that the “dinousaurs bones are fake” story is taught in their churches.

    I have no reason to believe that these good fundamentalist people are telling lies on their pastors.

    Pastors should stick to teaching theology and leave the teaching of the paleontology to the scientists.

    If pastors have no scientific training then they can be described correctly as an ignorant fundamentalist pastors.

    Ignorant of the science of paleontology.

    Agreed?

    Since you were a Barbados Exhibitioner I am sure that you understand that the medical students are not taught medicine by legal luminaries. Nor are medical luminaries permitted to teach law to the legal students etc.

  16. J

    And GP I did NOT say that the teaching about dinosaurs is relevant to salvation.

    Even though I am no Exhibitioner I understand very well that dinosaur bones can neither get me into nor keep me out of the Kingdom

  17. Thomas Gresham

    So, let me get this right.

    There is more than one Bajan who feels that dinosaur bones are fake. That the hundreds of thousands of bones found, carbon dated, corroborated by other bones found elsewhere by others, displayed in the Smithsonian, Natural History Museum, and around the world are fake; who believe that the scientific method of falsifiable theory, interrogated with evidence, is a matter of faith? And they are not ashamed to make this belief public. And they believe this because the gospel tells them so, and somehow our education system allows them to believe this unquestioningly. We need to invest more in education and travel.

  18. Anonymous

    It appears to me that salvation is conditional (for many christians) on the belief that the Earth is about 5000 years old and that there were never dinosaurs.

    A poster writes “Look at what is happening to the north of Israel with Iran & Russia.
    Look at what is happening to the east of Israel with the rise of Nations like India China and Japan.
    Look at what is happening to the south east of Israel with the rise of muslim Nations.
    Look at the resurgance of the Revised Roman Empire to the west of Israel.”

    So what! Iran (Persia) and Russia have clashed and collaborated before. India, China and Japan have always been great civilisations, Muslim nations have been through periods of dominance and subjugation…(not really sure what revised Roman Empire the writer is referring to). So what’s different at this time?

  19. Happy To Say

    These mind controlling churches have no place in my Barbados. However, these jokers are given the all clear by our immigration department to enter our country at will and to brainwash a 100s of minds on each visit. Additionally they extract an unimaginable amount of tithes from persons who can ill afford it. This is the equivalent to the reverse brain drain.

    We have to be strong and reject with ALL OF OUR MIGHT:
    1. These God botherers
    2. These fundamentalist
    3. These anti-Obamas
    4. These Republican supporters
    5. These anti-black Christians – i.e. they will worship with me but they will never allow my son to marry their daughter
    6. These sons of Jim Jones
    7. These anti-right-to-choice
    8. These south of the Dixie line residents
    9. These pro-McCain supporters
    10. THESE COLOUR PREJUDICED SOBs

  20. art

    As someone who has been very interested in evolution, specifically archaebacteria and the evolution of the genetic code (which is hhypothesised to have come from a 2 base beginning)….but also religious I can only say that it is hard for us to reconcile the literal with the evidence of the fossil record. Look at the shells and corals in the rocks of Mount Hillaby. How did they get there? When?

    One can explain this in 2 ways if one seeks a religious avenue:
    1) The Lord created them in 6 days the way it is, or
    2) The Lord created the world via evolution over a time that was different and the 6 days s a parable that teaches us the need for rest from work.

    I choose 2) because I do not think that the logical diversity and adaptation justifies an illogocal beginning as in 1).

    Rohan, why are you so insulting? Are you a minority group and feeling inadequate about something else? Why the put-downs? Called stirring the pot. I say we should respect all persons and things without insult. Polite discussion is stimulating, but insults turn people like me away from the blogs. Is that what you wish?

    I love to see the diverse creatures in the world, but that is secondary to my next post, which is more relevant to the topic.

  21. art

    Growing up on an island, playing and studyng with people of the broadest spectrum possibly i the world I learnt that we all love and insiide we are the same, despite our phenotypes and religions, or our geographic origins.

    I can recall an American student in Barbados secondary school suffering abuse from his classmates for no reason except that he was from the USA. That was in the 1970s, many years before George Bush, so the anti-Americanism is really quite longstanding in this island. In fact even our teachers are/were guilty. People think now about this.

    If it were in my realm I would have all Barbadians of all walks, classes, creeds and colours embrace each other. If it were within my realm I would ask for all to seek ways to meld/cooperate rather than to differentiate and/or dominate. Yes it is an old idea.

    So today I want you to remember perhaps the greatest preacher in history who said, “I have a dream”, Rev Dr. Martin Luther King, an American.

    You can read his “I have a Dream” speech on line by doing a search.

    One love, one heart to all. Despite our differences we are more than similar.

    art.

  22. Anon27

    I did not find Rohan’s post insulting in any way. He has only expressed what many people have asked. Are we, as intelligent people, in the year 2008, expexted to believe a fairy tale that is equivalent to Alice in Wonderland?
    Christianity came about as a way to control and subjugate the masses. A tool,if you will, that allowed a small number of people to have control over the masses and shape how society would evolve.

  23. CENTIPEDE

    It’s a battle for your mind. Advertising agencies, political parties, religions … are hard at work to hook you; they known that once they get in your head ~ you belong to them.

    One day (and it’s happening in many countries) people will awaken to the fact that they have been duped and this whole ‘god thing’ is only a superstition.

    Until then, expect to see the continuing effects on people who give away their power.

  24. art

    That may be your opinion, so I shall respect it. However, could I politely ask why, since one thinks it is a battle, that one fights a batttle against the battle? I find this unusual logic from a couple of posters.

  25. Eddie

    Dinasaurs – If these creatures lived or not has nothing to do with Evolution.

    I am sure that there are species of animals that used to roam the earth that have now become extinct

    The problem comes with carbon dating; when scientists declare that fossils found are millions of years old.

  26. Eddie

    BarB/Jinmy,

    Your terse comments make interesting reading.

    Can you please expand on what makes Barbadians ignorant?

  27. 329.18

    ALL churches and religions are mind controlling.
    Some more subtle than others
    some less so.
    Stop fooling yourself!

    People Kontrol started with Religions and various beliefs in various Juju,
    and now rests in the hands of Governments and other social mechanisms.

    Religion was the basic unifying, civilizing influence to get us out of the caves, and start behaving ourselves in something other than an animal manner.
    But it’s starting to wane very nicely,thanks.

    ————————
    The world is a worse place for people like Minister Dukes…and others
    who see the influence of religions(ALL of them) dwindling
    as people get smarter,
    learn to stand on their own 2 feet psychologically
    and face the realism of their own mortal demise
    from which there is no escape
    -and certainly no need to invent silly coping mechanisms
    in order to fool yuhself that there is an escape in the form of a ‘Magical Afterlife’ of sorts
    to save your sorry soul!

    Get with the program, dreads.
    You have three score years and ten dowm here..
    Enjoy it, and start checking the VERY REAL dinosaur bones
    — the antithesis to the BornAgain Christians’ “need” to prove every single word of their MaleJewish-written,make-believe bible to be true,
    up to and including the preposterous story
    that Lot’s wife turned around to look over her shoulder
    -naughty girl- and was immediately turned into a pillar of Sodium chloride??
    Give me a BREAK!

    2K yrs.later, my intellect now demands something a bit better than that!
    At least try to convince me the earth is flat.
    You might score a lil better on that one (although not too likely).

  28. JC

    I am of the believe that had not for this ‘faith’ named religion either two things would happen!

    1. most people would have gone mad!
    2. Everyone would be DEAD!

    Persons can choose which one they prefer to believe!

  29. Thomas Gresham

    Dear JC.

    Beliefs can play a positive role – depending on what they are and what they encourage people to do. A belief which says that war is just and that the foot soldiers will enter heaven surrounded by vestal virgins is probably not helpful. Beliefs that say it is good to turn the other cheek and chase the money lenders from the temples are probably more helpful, though sadly few Christians I know follow this particular belief.

    Except for Hinduism, the major religions of today (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) are relatively recent in mankind’s history – say the last 2000 years. Yet prior to these religions not everyone was dead or mad – though quite a few were. Indeed, for most of the time most of humanity went around with a collection of superstitions. So, your proposition that without these religions we will all be dead or mad is a little suspect, unless you were saying without belief in something.

    You see, this is the problem with faith versus science which too many believers do not appreciate. A scientific theory is one that can be disproved by evidence. A theory that cannot be disproved by evidence is one of faith.

    Because science is about questioning and trying to disprove, the biggest obstacle to science in our history has been religions that believe they are the holders of truth such as the Christian-Islamic-Jewish tradition. Darwinian evolution being a case in point. Darwins theory offers up a number of predictions that can be disproved or proved with things that can be tested – like there will be many species that have become extinct, like that separate a species long enough and it will adapt differently to its environment. The reason why evolution is the dominant theory of how we came about is because it has passed hundreds of these tests.

  30. Rohan

    ART said:
    Rohan, why are you so insulting? Are you a minority group and feeling inadequate about something else? Why the put-downs? Called stirring the pot. I say we should respect all persons and things without insult. —

    It’s only insulting because it stands in the face of your worldview. Why should I have any more respect for someone who believes in a talking snake and a magic man in the sky than someone who believes in Santa Claus?

    Actually, I can have more respect for people who believe in Santa Claus…. at least Santa Claus never advocated for anyone’s death or for the subjugation or rape of women.

    Read what I wrote and you will see everything is 100% true. That’s what you believe. I guess if I lacked the curiousity to try to figure things out for myself, I would feel insulted as well.

    And what does me being a minority have to do with anything?

  31. fx6y5e7

    It’s like insisting on still believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny
    despite the fact you darned well know they DO NOT exist
    (but for convenient reasons you still cling to the belief?!)

  32. John Holmes

    Art,
    Who is this ‘Lord’ dude you refer to??

    He sounds like something out of a book you were forced to read and believe,
    perhaps as a small child..
    some form of early-life brainwashing perhaps?
    And now you take it seriously?

    Many books were written by male Jews,
    and then pronounced “holy”
    by folks needing something to ‘believe’ in.

    Those who have got over the (inculcated)Fear of Death no longer need fairy-stories/religions/coping mechanisms. They are now the majority,
    as religions so well know and realize these days
    (dwindling market share).
    You’ll come to see it.

  33. The scout

    Too much education is destroying the lives of too many people, and I’m dealing about right here in Barbados. Call me a right wing christian if you want to but I believe in the Bible and it’s teachings. God wouldn’t hold me responsible for your disbelief, all I can do is to encourage all who think they have a better way of life is to examine themselves.Whether you believe there is a heaven or a hell is up to you; whether you believe it’s up in the air or under the ground, it is also up to you. It is how you live that would determine where you go on the GREAT GETTING UP MORNING. I know there is a special place because I when very close there with an old friend, who was on the journey home, she thanked me for the good that I had done for her and told me she can see the others on the other side waitng for her. With that she told me I expect to see you joining us over here and with that she squeezed my hand, smiled and moved to a better way of life. Even though it was my mother and I grieved her passing, I felt contented that she was happy. Yes, I intend to join her someday, I’m not perfect but when I stumble I ask for forgiveness. Call what ever you like, it is what my God knows of me that matters

  34. art

    Hi Rohan
    You seem to have anger, tremendous anger.I respect your view though it is different from mine. I would like to understand this anger please. There is lots of anger on the blogs, but you are an individual who can respond in this thread.

    If you will only please re-read above you could get the impression that your respect-giving, perhaps only seemingly as writ, is conditional.

    Are the blogs outlets for sadism, repressed anger form other sources?

    Can we accept differing opinions with respect? I have tried to entertain yours quite respectfully, one hopes.

    Do unto others?

  35. 175

    The only anger Rohan and I have
    is at the voluntary stupidity of people who believe stuff.
    ——————————-
    There are more people gone mad
    because of religion
    than any other cause!

  36. 175

    Isn’t it funny how the God-Fearers always insinuate that the non-believers have “anger issues”?
    I find this quite funny,really!

    If only you knew and understood the overwhelming relief
    and release from all the juj-belief krap that I have enjoyed over the last 5-10 years …you wouldn’t talk anger
    you’d want to know where all that JOY and freedom came from.

    But you keep on pretending.
    It works for you(or so you believe)

    Investigate what coping mechanisms are.
    Try Google.

  37. Anonymous

    The shells and corals in the rocks of Mount Hillaby. …are part of the chalky Oceanic Series of uplifted deep-sea sediments that now constitute this highest point of the island.
    (It’s not calcium carbonate=coralline)

    How did they get there?
    Tectonic uplift – Western Atlantic plate pushing Westward against an Eastward-moving Caribbean plate

  38. art

    So anon, response stems solely from an expressed regret of “voluntary stupidity” by persons for choosing religion/the Lord as a source for their inspiration?

    We do not think you are stupid. I am not mad.

    But I’m hearing you say that you think that those believing in religion are stupid. I respect this view, even though you have called me stupid by association. I personally forgive you for that.
    Turn the other cheek.

    Can we hear from Rohan too?

  39. Georgie Porgie

    @ Rohan

    Your scoffing at the way of salvation and about the promises of God were predicted in 2 Peter 3. Your scoffing, and that of others tend to reinforce my belief that the Word of God is indeed true.

    You are of course entitled to your view, but what if the Bible record is indeed true?

    @ J

    I am glad that you are aware of the tenets of Acts 4:12 and related passages.

    @Thomas

    I consider myself to be both a theologian and a scientist, but I don’t believe the chat about the dinosaurs. That is to me a matter of faith, just as much as the Word of God. I am not ashamed to say that I don’t believe in dinosaurs nor am I ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Nowhere in the gospel message is there any teaching about dinosaurs. It is uneccessary to talk about dinosaurs while proclaiming the Word. There too many sweet nuances in the Greek or Hebrew to share in the exposition of the text, to descend to irrelevant discussions about palaentology in the church. A knowledge of or belief in palaentology is definitely not necessary for faith and practice.

    We certainly need to invest more in the science of Biblical interpretation (hermeneutics) before we spout goo about the Word of God.

    It is written about the Word….”STUDY to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH”

    How can folk discuss a book that they have not studied?

  40. Georgie Porgie

    Anonymous

    Salvation is NOT conditional on the belief that the Earth is about 5000 years old and that there were never dinosaurs.
    Christians who believe thus was learn to separate the ESSENTIALS from the INCIDENTALS.
    Palaentology has no eternal value to believers or unbelievers.

    It is written……..Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. That is the essential!

    Re the revised Roman Empire. In Daniel 2 & 7 the prophet predicted that the Persian, Greek and Roman empires would follow the Babylonian empire. He also predicted that the Roman Empire would not be destroyed as its predecessors did, and that at the end time the revised Roman Empire would appear, from which one, the Antichrist will appear, who would make a peace treaty with Israel and then break it after 2.5 years.

    Theologians have believed this for years, and certainly believe that the European grouping of nations is/will be the revised Roman Empire, signified by the ten toes of Neubuchadnezzers dream of Daniel 2 & 7.

    Whereas you are quite correct in your opinion of the events of history pass, what’s different at this time is that the eastern nations never had the POWER numerically or economically or militarily as they do now. Also the things you describe did not all occur simultaneously while Israel were in their own land for a generation as predicted in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24.

  41. Georgie Porgie

    art

    The genetic code revolves around three bases not two.
    It is quite possible that the shells and corals in the rocks of Mount Hillaby got there as a result of consequences of the FLOOD! That similar fossils have been found in places on mountain tops all over the world tend to support a universal flood. I see nothing illogical in the Genesis record of creation. In fact the ex nihilo record of creation accords well with Paul’s statements in Hebrews 11:3 & Romans 1:18 and what scientists believe about kinetic theory and the theory of the atom.

    In the creation record I see order and power and purpose.

    Anon 27

    How are we in 2008 any more as intelligent people than before? In fact with all our technology we have failed to keep God in our thoughts, and he has indeed given us up and given us over, as described in Romans 1. In his grace, he allows one such as you to refer to the Gospel message as a fairy tale that is equivalent to Alice in Wonderland.

    I can assure you that more books and commentaries have been written, and more poems penned and songs sung about the old old story than any other issue under the sun.

    Before Christ came to Earth to die for our sins, the control and subjugation of the masses was well entrenched. Subjugation of the masses continues today in every sphere of life. Just think about it. JUST THINK!

    Hitler, Idi Amin, even the last BLP government were tools that were examples of tools that allowed a small number of people to have control over the masses and shape how society would evolve. Ah lie? JUST THINK!

  42. Georgie Porgie

    Centipede
    Just maybe this whole “God thing” is true and not just superstition.
    Then one day many who scoff now will indeed be awaken in the second resurrection to the scene described in Revelation 20”11- 15

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    ART said:

    Actually, I can have more respect for people who believe in Santa Claus….

    It is indeed unbelievable what people will believe in order to remain unbelievers!

    JC wrote I am of the believe that had not for this ‘faith’ named religion either two things would happen!
    1. most people would have gone mad!
    2- Everyone would be DEAD!

    Your post reminds me of this text in Philipians 4:7

    And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

  43. 175

    The bible(and the Koran and the Talmud) are all so inconsequential and becoming increasingly irrelevant to modern life,
    -unless you chose it to be..(have you tried other hobbies and head games? stamp-collecting? bird-watching? internet?)

    Please stop quoting from dusty ancient tomes.
    Ancient mutterings impress only the easily impressionable.

    Can we talk science? Like why fossilised marine organisms are to be found at lofty atmospheric heights?
    And whether science has indeed found fossilised dinosaur remains.

    and why Barbados has obviously-fossilised corals(examine the stones at your feet)
    – it’s not some mystical process…these are all proven scientific planetary processes,
    not someone’s wild imaginings and mumbo-jumbo about burning bushes and disobedient wives turning into pillars of salt.

    We have electricity, these days
    and America and Australia actually exist,now.
    For goodness sake modernise your thinking! PLEASE!

    You really should not waste your life pretending your way into an imaginary afterlife!
    It doesn’t make any sense, and there is ZERO empirical scientific evidence
    even though I reckon it’s a great idea (if it ever happens) but I’m certainly not worried about my life coming to a finite end in 30-40 years time or whenever, and neither should you be!

    GET OVER your inculcated Fear of Death.
    That’s how you’re being controlled – via Fear!
    Fear of this fear of that.

    Every ‘good Bajan’ is afraid of SOMEthing!!!
    It’s “Good for the soul” – helps to keep you intellectually-undeveloped and believing

    *****************

    Barbados Free Press Say…

    I guess I’m just mind-controlled then. I have the inability to picture the creation of the universe without God.

    You see, I just can’t see the science in your belief that the world, the universe – everything – created itself out of nothing, with no external energy, no design, no materials. Your view is that everything created itself out of nothing, for no reason.

    Sorry… I’m just too stupid to be able to accept that, so I’ll have to continue to believe in God – and upon God.

    Even Satan believes IN God. Believing UPON God is something else.

    And with that, I’m off to night shift…

    See you tomorrow morning friends!

    M.

  44. Geo.

    I believe you’ll find that Hillaby’s Oceanic Series (at 1,116 ft. elevation)
    is made up of compressed (microscopic) diatomaceous material
    -few(if any) shells and corals.

    You’re thinking Pleistocene material,sorry.

  45. Geo.

    “How are we in 2008 any more as intelligent people than before? ”

    Oh we’re probably dumber than ever.
    That’s how evolution works.
    Backward. (???)

    We now know about electricity,
    and Uranium thorium-dating
    (Radioactive C14 is yesterday’s tech)

    we now understand that the Earth revolves around the sun, we have planetary landers on Mars and the Moon,
    but oh no, the bible dudes were smarter than we are.
    Go figure, dummy!
    Sheeeeesh

    grooaannnn

  46. Geo.

    Found a website once, about Jehovah Witnesses success ratios in various places.

    Know where they have the most success in penetrating people’s minds?
    SMALL ISLANDS.

    And the smaller the island, the better the penetration ratio of success.

    can you add 2 and 2?
    Or is Barbados a continent?

    We are small island dummies susceptible to any rubbish Controllers want to feed us.
    WE ARE GULLIBLE

  47. Thomas Gresham

    BFP’s point is becuase we do not know the answer to everything, there is probably a god. Well that is quite a giant leap of logic because the fact that we do not know all the answers tells us nothing about the nature of this god, whether it is the selfish, vindictive god of the old testament or not. Whether it is “alive” or not. All knowing or not. It tells us nothing as to whether there is one god or many gods, whether it is a christian god or one of the hindu gods.

    The argument that we do not know who/what started the big bang is not an argument for believing in one of many books, especially a book that says things that have been disproven, such as the age of the Earth, that says nothing about what we now know about human evolution or about things we have discovered today about the solar system and the stars that god could have told us about, but didnt. Interestingly in his teachings this christian god seemed to have as limited a view about the world that he created as the average humans of 2000 years ago. Funny that.

    You need to live a good life, treating people as you wish to be treated, not deceiving people, not harming living things, advancing knowledge by questioning all things and believing in evidence over blind faith. Tenets that are common to many religions and the beliefs of non-religious people. And if there is a god, but he is a selfish, vindictive god that strikes you down for being good but not believing in him, then one has to wonder whether he is worth believing in.

    ********************

    BFP says,

    We’re happy that you now realize that much of what you call science is based upon your personal faith. It is also your act of personal faith that God did not create everything and that there must be another explanation for the existence of matter.

  48. Anonymous

    Georgie,
    Remember when the world was flat?
    Remember when only the earth, sun and moon existed?
    Remember when the act of sneezing was believed to be the soul trying to escape the body?
    Remember when anyone who didn’t conform was though to be either a witch or someone possessed by the Devil?

  49. Georgie Porgie

    We now know about electricity, and Uranium thorium-dating(Radioactive C14 is yesterday’s tech), So What ?

    we now understand that the Earth revolves around the sun, we have planetary landers on Mars and the Moon. So What ?

    This dummy is an island scholar and a physician. What are you? Who are you to call me a dummy?

    Why am I a dummy because I have found no reason to stop believing the Bible because I have numerous diseases, and after 40 years studying science.

    Do you know that the Bible predicted in Daniel that knowledge will increase exponentially towards the esheton as men move to and fro (i.e there will be increasing travel such as we see today?

    What evolution what? How could an elephant or a giraffe evolve. How could you have evolved? Could the complex interrelationships in molecular and cell biochemistry have evolved? If it was not perfect the first time there would be no life as we know it? Have you ever heard of a disease involving the Kreb’s cycle?

    To the one who wrote that the Bible is so inconsequential and becoming increasingly irrelevant to modern life unless you chose it to be. Well I chose it to be so for me. Stamp collecting and bird watching I did as a boy. But when I became a man, I put of childish things as Paul opines in Corinthians.

    Not only is the Bible not a dusty ancient tome, it is still the best seller among books. It remains the world’s most translated book, and as we speak there are men and women all over the globe engaged in their hobby seeking to translate into to other tongues and dialects.

    Is Shakespeare not an ancient tome, often quoted today?

    We have electricity, these days. Great. Just as the Bible predicted! You see the Bible is up to date. We only found out about DNA in 1950. What do you suppose the phrase “after its kind” in Genesis really means? Or the greek word sperma in I John 3 :9?

    That America and Australia actually exist now means what exactly? That they recently evolved?

    I don’t pretend that there will be a life afterwards. I KNOW that there will be one! There was no empirical evidence for much of the science we accept today before it became known.
    I am not worried about my life ending. In fact I expect to go up fairly soon at the rapture without dieing. Just as folk looked for Enoch and Elijah after they were caught up, people will look for the believers after the rapture occurs.

  50. Rohan

    Thomas Greshan wrote:

    -And if there is a god, but he is a selfish, vindictive god that strikes you down for being good but not believing in him, then one has to wonder whether he is worth believing in.-
    ———–
    Thomas, quotes like this is why I always read your entire posts. This sums it up.
    Peace

  51. Rohan

    Thought this was great.

    ————Science vs religion—————–

    BTW, I’m far from angry. If I were you, I would be angry though. Angry at the bill of laden you’ve been dealt. In exchange for the mistakes you make in your life ~100 years, your God will punish you by burning you alive for ~100000000000000000000000000000 years (eternity). Sounds like a fair and loving God doesn’t it?

  52. Rohan

    BFP SAYS
    You see, I just can’t see the science in your belief that the world, the universe – everything – created itself out of nothing, with no external energy, no design, no materials. Your view is that everything created itself out of nothing, for no reason.
    *********
    So the universe coming into existence without a maker is impossible and the explanation is an all powerful entity that came into existence WITHOUT A MAKER?

    Oh and it can read your mind and make time stand still and be everywhere at once? Much more likely right? Makes sense…

    *******************

    BFP says

    Hi Rohan,

    Peace be unto you. There is much I will ask God after I die, for there is much I do not know.

    But you seem very very sure in your faith, with no need for open questions to anyone.

    And I don’t mean that in a nasty way.

    But for now… Is it past 8am? Ohhhhh Yessss… time for a Banks!

  53. art

    OK.
    I am a believer in the Lord. My personnal belief instills in me a tolerance of others with different views. Therefore I will discuss, but in the end I am probably non-negotiable in this respect. However, I accept that there are aetheists present, whose views I also accept.

    GP- above you have misquoted someone else as me- I was not that clause about Claus- it was the guy above me in the thread.

    Geo, I passed by Farmers and think I saw what I thought were rocks the other day. Perhaps there is some kind of geological interface in that area? Where does St. Thomas limestone end and the Scotland District actually begin. I guess I was incorrect there. Thanks for correcting.

    My beliefs are my own. They instill and inform my wishes and my actions. For example: to do good things, and by doing so others benefit and pass good on. Also, a sense and a belief in acts of charity, especially those unknown. This is a part of my own life, and my beliefs inform this aspect of my personnal life.

    It is my opinion that ones acts create a ripple effect. Whether one is a believer or not, if one achieves good and places good into the community, good things are multiplied by a ripple effect.

    It is well with my heart.

  54. Hard driver

    Arguing over ones beliefs of God or an afterlife is a futile exercise and I try to keep far away from it. But organized religion is another thing. It’s like people arguing over the best way to visit a foreign country … by ship, plane, chartered tour, back pack ..it’s all personal preference. The major religions are the big tour companies and they put out books (Bible Koran etc) to try to encourage people into “traveling” with them … And they use scare tactics ” if you travel with those other people, you may not reach your destination”…..people that travel with the big tour companies like to take the easy way … not much research needed just follow the instructions and everything is done and prearranged for you, just come to church every week and don’t forget to give … and give more … I could take this analogy on forever but basically organized religion is big and often corrupt business.

    I believe there are many ways to make that journey and in the end, we are all going the same place anyhow…..

  55. Geo.

    Art,
    good to see you’ve been doing some observations in the Farmers area.
    Indeed that is where the thin coral cap gives way to the underlying Oceanic Series(the 1,500ft.thick aprox.) ‘interface’ between the coral cap and the Scotland Series thought to be of South American origin.

    The coral cap of Barbados is a large fossilized coral reef,
    less than one million years old.
    Sure evidence of fossils we walk upon every day, that we see in the cut rock if we scrutinise it closely.
    Just like the fossilized dinosaur skeletons to be found in BMNH
    in South Kensington,London and elsewhere.

    ————————–

    What would happen to your mind,Art,
    if you stopped believing?
    Would you go mad?
    Would you crumble into a nervous breakdown?

    No. none of that would happen.
    You’d simply say, Aw shucks, they conned me for fifty years,
    I was a sucker, now it’s time to enjoy the huge psychological freedom from Organised Cri.. sorry Religion!
    and get on with the rest of my life!

    Big Deal.

    It’s an admission of Being Suckered many people come to, once they can let go of all the old tomes that essentially promise zilch,
    and proceed into the brave new world!
    Hohum. Life goes on
    just like it always did,
    but without the ‘dependence’ on false promises!

    You’re probably also dependent on coffee “to start your day”.
    You can kick that habit too
    but I’d much rather you kick the other one.

  56. Geo.

    God is any intellect superior to Homo sapiens
    “Man The (Allegedly!) Wise”.

    She doesn’t live in a bible, or in your mind.
    She’s tangible, an actual living being.

    She probably drives a verra cool spaceship,
    technologically FAR-beyond our stone-age aircraft(sorry Robert)
    and she’s capable of flying in from QX-145.06 in under eight minutes.

    She understood and harnessed anti-gravity and that sorts stuff several hundred earth-years ago.

    She is ‘God’ because she is technologically and intellectually superior to Cave Man(H.sapiens)
    here on Planet Earth.

    There may be millions, maybe Billions of such God’s on her planet
    just as there are 6.4 Billion of us backward Cavemen on this planet, where we’re so incredibly dumb we’re gleefully fouling our own nest/planet ad infinitum!!

    She and her millions of other Godlike cohorts are probably past that stage now.
    They’re also past the stage of having to burn stuff
    to make heat
    to make shafts rotate.

    They are more clever than we are,
    in the same manner that we are far more clever than the ants we crush every day.
    Or are we?
    Ants run a clean planet -we don’t.

    I hope there’s a God out there
    bcoz if we’re the smartest thing in the Universe,
    the Universe in in bad shape!

    And when She/God arrives in her spacecraft how does Man The Wise react? Belligerently?
    Attacking with bullets?
    Shoot her down?
    Is this Wise behaviour?
    Or is this Fear-based/Ignorance-based behaviour from the Stone Age?

  57. Exodus 22:28

    Georgie Porgie wrote “Hitler, Idi Amin, even the last BLP government were tools …”.

    That is a contemptible comment worthy only of a christian.

  58. Rohan

    BFP says

    Hi Rohan,

    Peace be unto you. There is much I will ask God after I die, for there is much I do not know.

    But you seem very very sure in your faith, with no need for open questions to anyone.

    And I don’t mean that in a nasty way.

    But for now… Is it past 8am? Ohhhhh Yessss… time for a Banks!
    ****
    BFP, ahh you know I love you guys.

    Just a quick point of clarity, I do not subscribe to faith. Faith is belief without evidence. As for being sure, I’m not quite sure about much to be honest…but I can see an illogical argument from a mile away.

    Basically, the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the required evidence should be. I’m actually quite open to considering a change in my outlook on anything as long as I am presented with compelling evidence (and in the case of whatever God(s) people worship- any evidence whatsoever). Until then…;)

  59. Georgie Porgie

    @ Thomas Gresham
    My study of Molecular Biology, Cellular Biology & Biochemistry makes it very clear that the big bang theory is utter nonsense. In other words I am saying that what the scientists have discovered and believe about Molecular Biology, Cellular Biology & Biochemistry indicate that both evolution and the big bang theory is utter nonsense.

    There is no Scripture passage that points out the age of the earth. None. I have been collection verses that refer to the creation in the margin as I have read the Scriptures over a period of more than 50 years, and am still to find one verse that speaks about the age of the earth.

    The purpose of the Genesis record and the Bible appears not to have been to tell us about the solar system or the stars (it does say in Genesis that he made the stars also). The grand message of the Bible story is that God sought to have a relationship with mankind.

    I agree that one needs to live a good life, treat people as they wish to be treated, be truthful, be harmless, and by advancing knowledge by questioning all things.

    I also know too that much of the SCIENCE we say we know, we believe it by BLIND FAITH too.

    I also know too that much of the SCIENCE we say we know and believe IS EVER CHANGING. That includes the various theories of evolution that I have had to be aware of in science classes!

    You point out that a god, who is selfish, vindictive, and who strikes you down for being good but not believing in him is not worth believing in, is a non secquitur.

    Many mortals believe in other mortals with the same traits that you mention and condemn. Ah lie?

  60. Georgie Porgie

    @ Exodus 22:28
    Yes, I repeat “Hitler, Idi Amin, even the last BLP government were tools …”.
    Everyone is a tool; either a tool for good and the right, or a tool of the evil one.

    @ Geo. Who wrote …I hope there’s a God out there bcoz if we’re the smartest thing in the Universe, the Universe in bad shape!

    At last! You have said something of substance!

    The coral cap of Barbados is a large fossilized coral reef, less than one million years old.
    Sure evidence of fossils we walk upon every day, that we see in the cut rock if we scrutinise it closely. THESE FOSSILS WERE VERY VERY LIKELY DEPOSITED BY THE FLOOD? EVIDENCE OF IT’S UNIVERSAL NATURE ?

    @ Geo. Who wrote
    Hohum. Life goes on just like it always did, but without the ‘dependence’ on false promises!

    Do you realize that this exact attitude was foretold in 2 Peter 3:3 et scq many years ago?

    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    Geo wrote too

    It’s an admission of Being Suckered many people come to, once they can let go of all the old tomes that essentially promise zilch, and proceed into the brave new world!

    Yes indeed. I look forward to the brave new world as promised in Revelatation 22

    For my DMin Thesis I read the Bible through to see if God had made any promises, and where he made them in the Bible. I read also to find where it was recorded that any of these promises were indeed kept. I found that the only promises in the Bible that have not yet been kept ALL relate to what theologians call Eschatology or the Doctrine of the Second Coming.

    My opinion on what is written in the Word is a function of my personal study. What is your opinion based on?

    Hard driver wrote I believe there are many ways to make that journey and in the end, we are all going the same place anyhow…..

    Interesting view. Hmmmm
    Proverbs 14:12 says “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.

    I agree with you that much organized religion is big and often corrupt business. That’s sad. But real Christianity is about a personal relationship with a person- CHRIST.

    I have never been personally guided by scare tactics, nor do I use them when I present the Word. I just read the text, and explain what the text says as best as I can.

    @ Anonymous
    I have read that men once thought that the world was flat, even though there at least two passages that clearly state that the world was spherical.
    The rest of your ramblings does not arise from a right division of the Word of truth.

  61. Exodus22:28

    GP
    Why not say “all government”? My contempt for your statement is because of your malicious juxtaposition of the former administration with that of Hitler and Amin.

    Didn’t Paul believe that Jesus was coming back in his lifetime? If so, how come he got it wrong and others think they have it right (i.e Jesus coming in the near future)? Also as it is written in the Bible that no one knows when Jesus is returning then will Georgie Porgie admit that he can only be speculating (even if hopefully)?

    Is Georgie an expert in cosmology? If not then his “utter nonsense” label as applied to the Big Bang “theory” can be disregarded. In true scientific fashion, the Big Bang idea is being modified in the light of new evidence. Unlike religion, scientists can say “hey we had it wrong! Here’s what the data tells us” without their world coming to an end.

    By the way, Barbados is rising by about one mm each year. It has been measured (can’t put my hand on the paper detailing the measurement, right now). This is just one tiny bit of evidence for plate tectonics and the other geological processes which explain the position and nature of the coral cap.

    Take care Dr GP that you don’t write “bovine excrement”.

  62. The scout

    I promised myself long ago, not to get into an arguement over religion. All I would say to all you unbelievers is “I’ll remember you in my prayers, and hope that soon you will come to your senses. GOD BLESS

  63. Thomas Gresham

    Here are five examples of evidence taken from a lecture by Dr. Stephen Law in London, that the world is millions of years old as predicted by evolution theory and not the 6,000 or so years that many creationists believe:

    ( i ) Astronomers have observed objects from which it would take light many millions of years to reach us. Millions of years must therefore have elapsed in order for that light to reach us.
    ( ii) Look at the moon and you will see thousands of craters. Yet these craters are produced by impacts that occur only infrequently. In order for the moon to have that many craters, it would have to be many millions of years old, not six thousand.
    ( iii) The surface of the Earth is made up of continental plates that drift. We know, for example, Africa and South America were once physically connected. The very slow rate at which the plates drift means, again, that the earth must have been around for.many millions of years, not just six thousand.
    ( iv) The surface of the Earth is made up of rock strata. Given the rate at which strata are laid down, it would take many millions of years for that depth of strata to form. So the Earth must be many millions of years old.
    ( v) These rock strata contain fossils. And the fossils are ordered in a way that shows evolutionary progression. For example, they show that man evolved from earlier primates. But if creationism is true, then all species were created at the same time just six thousand years ago. In which case we should expect to find creatures fossilized in a fairly random way throughout the strata, rather than in the very precise and specific way required by evolution. Yet even today, after countless millions of fossils have been discovered not one single well documented example of an out of place fossil has been found (for example, not one single fossil of a large mammal has been found down in the dinosaur layers). Isn’t that, from the point of creationism, a quite unbelievable coincidence?

    ****************

    BFP says,

    Hi Thomas,

    You have a lot of FAITH that the geological processes you speak of have always been occurring at the same rate – and you have a lot of FAITH that the speed of light has always been the same even when recent studies show it is changing (!).

    You also have a lot of FAITH that our shrinking sun has NOT been shrinking at the same rate over time. (For it is shrinking and has been accurately measured as shrinking for about the last 300 years and if the rate of shrinking has been constant, then the earth was too hot to have supported life only 30,000 years ago or so. – Ref: Ian Wilson – In The Minds Of Men)

    You also have a lot of FAITH that the moon craters were not all formed in a short time due to a large event, and that only a few of them have occurred “over time”.

    You also have a lot of FAITH that the dust on the surface of the moon as lands there from space (and on earth) has NOT been accumulating at a constant rate for billions of years… as the shallow depth of dust on the moon is way too shallow to have been accumulating at the current rate for millions of years. At the current rate of dust accumulation, the depth should be over 8 feet in the past ten million years, but in 1969 when Armstrong and Aldrin walked on the moon, it was less than 1/2 inch.

    You have a lot of FAITH in a lot of unsupported suppositions, Thomas!

    And… in order to maintain your FAITH in your belief system that you call “science”, you must be selective in choosing which natural processes have continually occurred at uniform rates, and which have not.

    Essentially, you disregard any natural process where the currently observed rate of change does not suit your belief system.

  64. Georgie Porgie

    Exodus22:28

    Yes Paul believed that Jesus was coming back in his lifetime, as all believers have done throughout the Church age. This is because the Bible teaches that Christ’s second coming is imminent…. it can occur at any time.

    The reason why contemporary believers believe that Jesus’ coming is in the near future is because of their interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, which was given by Christ himself and is thought to be the key to interpretation of Bible Prophecy.

    If you follow the course of the unravelling of Bible prophecy, you will find that Bible prophecy is most easily explained when it is fulfilled. At no time previous to our time are facets of end time prophecies happening simultaneously as foretold in the OT prophets and in the Olivet Discourse.

    The Bible does NOT say anywhere that no one knows when Jesus is returning. It says that NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR HOUR. And it says this in the same Olivet Discourse that gives us instruction concerning the general time frame in which the second coming will occur Sir!

    I said that a study of basic Biochemistry (and Molecular & Cellular Biology) discredits the
    the Big Bang “theory”. I am not an expert in cosmology but in the other subjects listed. If you take one simple metabolic pathway (without even considering how the pathways are controlled by enzymes, and again controlled by hormones & other factors ) you will conclude that the Big Bang “theory” is statistically unfeasable. And I am speaking here as a scientist, not a theologian now! LOL

    You cant modify the Big Bang concept really. There was a big bang and substances from ex nihilo was organized in complex ways. You have to accept that by faith just as I accept the Genesis record and the Bible.

  65. Georgie Porgie

    Thomas Gresham

    Where in the Genesis record or the Bible does it state that the world was created six thousand years ago?

    Why must the world have been created six thousand years ago for creationism to be true?

    Since evolution is supposed to be by random selection, then we should expect to find creatures fossilized in a fairly random way throughout the strata. Not so?

    There is nothing that is very precise and specific about evolution. Not according to what I was exposed in College.

  66. art

    I find the comments of Geo and TG stimulating. The study of geology is intriguing and parallels the biological sciences with its chronology. I have not once wished to refute facts stated above re geology-I can happily welcome and embrace these things- it is so, so interesting.

    In my own way I have tried to delve into evolution during my lifetime. At a younger point in my life I was a self-described agnostic. That changed.

    Now I am a believer in both religionism and evolution as complementary and necessary together. Many scientists will rejet this, ut many will also accept it. Please add to what I am about to say in a constructive way. Especially if someone has factual scientific knowledge to contribute.

    The theory of natural selection is one that says the differences in phenotype (that result from the internal genotype) make variations inside a species. If there is a case where environmental conditions change, over a very, very long time certain phenotypes (and therefore the genotypes also which are in the cell inside the DNA) are selected naturally, i.e. natural selection. Over a very long time this results in evolution of species, or differences, eg Darwin’s Finches, The Caribbean’s tiny snakes.

    OK. That is not a hard concept to grasp and not hard to accept given the evidence.

    For my own efforts I have gone deeper into the cell. Part of what I did was to look at DNA, the substance which is the key to the genetic code, and wonder how a cell, and such a thing as DNA could reproduce, becaue of the early cell, the first cell, from which everyting is postulated by evolution to have come from, it would have to reproduce, or the line would die.

    Of course there are no fossils or record of these things. The closest things on the planet Earth are called “Archaebacteria”, fossil algae.

    I am not a physicist, but the Second Law of Thermodynamics states that ‘matter’ always tends towards a state of maximum entropy (disordered state) due to energy flows.

    So I began to ask myself how, at some stage, as I thought about how DNA was said to have been formed, how would it have found its way into a cell, and found something like RNA to help it to copy itself and to create more cells? Bearing in ind the law of entropy. Can you see where I am going with this? I believe you may, even of you do not agree. It’s a valid train of thought in my mind.

    There is much more, but this post is already very long.

    Reiterating: You have a force that creates a reproduceable ordered living entity, but emanating from a state of entropy and disorder.

    Are you synching with me or is this just too much to handle?

  67. Exodus 22:28

    from wikipaedia under the heading “The second law of thermodynamics”:

    The second law of thermodynamics has been proven mathematically for thermodynamic systems, where entropy is defined in terms of heat divided by the absolute temperature. The second law is often applied to other situations, such as the complexity of life, or orderliness.[7] In sciences such as biology and biochemistry the application of thermodynamics is well-established, e.g. biological thermodynamics. The general viewpoint on this subject is summarized well by biological thermodynamicist Donald Haynie; as he states: “Any theory claiming to describe how organisms originate and continue to exist by natural causes must be compatible with the first and second laws of thermodynamics.”[8] This is very different, however, from the claim made by many creationists that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. In fact, evidence indicates that biological systems and obviously the evolution of those systems conform to the second law, since although biological systems may become more ordered, the net increase in entropy for the entire universe is still positive as a result of evolution.[9]

    A measurement of entropy is that portion of energy unavoidably lost as nonuseful heat.

  68. Exodus 22:28

    GP
    You would have me accept that contemporary Christians have a superior understanding of those teachings contained in the Olivet Discourse than those who were actually in physical contact with Jesus! Yet we follow their instruction. Ok Paul may not have actually met Jesus (i.e before crucification) but he was in contact with Peter and other disciples. I would think that if they felt that Jesus was returning in their lifetime then it would be as a result of analysis of the Old Testament prophesy plus they had the advantage that contemporary Christians do not, of actually having conversed with Jesus. They got it wrong but you do not!?

    I remember a discussion with a Catholic seminarian on eschatology. One comment that shocked me was this: Jesus did not actually resurrect, it was an eschatological event. I repeated this to an Anglican student at Codrington College, who to my amazement agreed. I admit that I remain baffled by the comment to this day. Have you ever heard this in your studies?

  69. art

    My use of the law of thermodynamics stems from order/disorder of the chemicals within a cell. And begs a question as to how they arose in that form. Above post does not address this.

  70. Thomas Gresham

    Dear GP,

    You mentioned this is not what you learned at college, so may I ask which college you went to?

    It is creationists who argue that evolution is wrong because the world is only about 6,000 years old. What leads creationists to this ignorance of the evidence is really not for me to say, but if you do a web search you will find it relates to their estimates of the length of time god took to make the earth and the line of descendents from Adam and Eve. The creationists principal argument against evolution is that the earth is not old enough.

    Evolution is not about random selection. For you to say so, explains a lot. The prediction of evolution theory is that species evolve in relation to the environment they are in – natural selection. Today’s species have evolved from their ancestor species.

    GP. I regret to be the one who has to say to you that are not a scientist. A scientific theory is one which has a testable prediction. A testable prediction of the theory of evolution is in the fossil record and its ordering in the layers of the Earth’s strata. The evidence supports the theory. I have given other testable predictions about the age of the earth above. This is why respectable scientists support evolutionary theory. You will not find a single Nobel Laureate in Biology who is a “creationist”.

    What testable prediction does creationism come up with? One is the fossil record, if creationists were right, the fossil records would be random and we would find fossils of humans in the same strata level as dinosaurs etc. We do not. Another testable prediction is the age of the earth (young versus old). Creationism fails these and countless other predictions which is why it is not science but belief.

  71. Rohan

    BFP, that rant about faith in science was weak. Again: Faith is the belief in something with no good reason to believe it. i.e belief without evidence. This is the foundation of religion and the antithesis of science. So to purport that belief in scientific theory is somehow related to the belief in fairy tales is ridiculous.

    Claim: Dragons exist and there is one in the attic.

    Scientist or even just a critical thinking person: “Let’s examine the evidence!”
    1) Can we detect the presence of anything at all in the attic?
    2) If we do find something in the attic can we determine that it is indeed a dragon?
    3)Do we have previously collected dragon DNA to come to a conclusion?
    4)Can we compare the DNA of whatever we find against all other known animals to be sure?
    5) Can whatever tests we perform to determine that there is a dragon be replicated independantly by other experts?
    6) Are there secondary tests that we can run parallel to be certain?
    7) Does the claim we make, given the evidence stand up to peer review?
    8) Can we make testable predictions with our results? Example: Here are three attics. One of them contains a dragon. Can we use our dragon detection technique to determine which attic contains a dragon?

    Only after an exhaustive set of work like this, and after years of peer review, will the Theory of Attic Dragons be widely accepted in the scientific community.

    Compare this with religious thought:

    Biblical Claim: Dragons exist and there is one in the attic.

    Religious belief: Wow, there is a dragon in the attic. How big is it?

  72. Facts

    Thomas Gresham,

    I think what folks don’t understand is that Evoultion as promulgated by Darwin and others is a “theory”. It is the “Theory of Evolution”. It is not an exact science. It is theory based on hunches (or should I say, theory based on theory).

    I always get a laugh at people who espouse evolution as fact and redicule Christianity based on faith.
    The Christian’s belief is based on faith, what he can’t see. The Evolutionist bases his beliefs on faith too – hunches, and what he feels to be right.

  73. Geo.

    UNbelievable how a book,
    written by Jewish males
    2-3,000 yrs ago
    widely purported to be “The Word of God”
    can still be madly influencing allegedly-intelligent people today!

    There are obviously many deliberately-un-enlightened people still around,
    still clinging to Snake Oil beliefs in the hope they can somehow escape their mortal existence and demise, and proceed on to an afterlife of sorts!
    What a GAS!

    biblical quotes do absolutely Nothing for unbelievers.
    They prove Zilch.

    You are wasting your time and effort quoting from ‘here’ and ‘there’.
    Tomic Quotations mean NOTHING to us – only to you,a believer.

    You think they help support your various claims
    in that..”It is written” (oh so solemn)
    but who gives a shirt about that stuff any more?
    It’s no more meaningful than the Readers Digest of Oct. 1967.

    HAVE YOU READ what was written on page 117, of that edition??
    Have you studied and absorbed it?
    translated it, and figured out what was REALLY meant?
    as opposed to what was actually written?
    Do you derive fun and satisfaction reading-between-lines?

    Aren’t you tired of having to defend the imaginary Tooth Fairy,
    so long after you became adult?

    biblical quotes “prove” This and That to believers
    but not to the Modern Intelligentsia
    who have now evolved past the need for spiritual ‘support’ as a way to get thru a dreary life
    (a life made dreary -on purpose-
    by the religions and churches?
    -so you’d need this false-solace?)

    Realists know we’re gonna die.
    We accept that – Big DEAL!
    We’re not afraid any more.
    What are you going to do with people who are not afraid any more?
    How will you control us? if you can’t wield the Fear Spear any longer?

    Religions are head-games.Nothing more!
    In some cases(fundamental Islam) they have driven people mad.
    To wit, Sept. 11th. 2001 where one “religion” ran amok with aircraft from the Money Religion,
    flying them into the Holiest of Holies. Unthinkable in more ways than one!

    Religions have now become dangerous to the planetary health,
    to all societies
    – and they must be banned.
    Art et alumni must be brought, kicking and screaming,
    into the light and the new realization of the 21st. Century
    devoid of silly idiotic beliefs that continue to hamper human social development and progress.

    All parasitic church organisations and raving-lunatic “religions” must be done away with
    and alternative therapies and re-education provided to ailing intellects in need..
    and no we don’t give a damn if you consider the enlightened to be “Anti-Christ” for we are entirely anti-religious!
    (it’s far far worse than you or your dusty tome ever imagined: – isn’t that “scary”?)

    ——————————
    Now: your task is to search-up in The Tome
    to find the passage that solemnly and direly “predicted” this kicking-of-butt against the whole silly Snake Oil Belief Show that you so fervently cling to
    in the belief that if you let go, you’ll drown.

    You won’t!

    LET GO,man
    it may save what’s left of your life.
    You only have another 20 yrs. to go.

    Oh ye of little courage!

    I stopped sleeping with Teddy Bear when I was 12..and that was probably too long(dummy that I am)

    Can you let go of yours NOW?

  74. Thomas Gresham

    Facts.

    I am getting really ashamed about this mumbo jumboism coming out of our education system.

    You clearly do not understand the difference between science and hunch, theory and faith.

    It is not the same. You think it is the same because your beliefs do not stand up to science and so you want to think it is the same rather than to change your beliefs or admit you are not scientific.

    Let me explain for the upteenth time.

    A scientific theory is one which has testable predictions.

    Do you get that? TESTABLE PREDICTIONS.

    Darwin’s theory HAS testable predictions and the tests support the theory.

    When tests do not support a theory scientists junk the theory and look for a new one with testable predictions. Einstein’s theory of relativity was a theory with testable predictions.

    I have been a professor in the UK in a social science and a member of our governing body and we have many theories with testable predictions that are then disproved by the tests and so we move on, looking for better theories that can make predictions that can be tested and supported.

    This is a world of difference from creationism. The theory of creationism has failed what little testable predictions there are (age of earth, fossil record) and so creationists end up resorting the things that are are not testable and so it is not science. BELIEVING IN ANYTHING WITHOUT A TESTABLE PREDICTION IS FAITH.

    Darwin’s theory is NOT FAITH, BECAUSE IT HAS A TESTABLE PREDICTION. These predictions have been tested and support the theory which is why scientists believe in the theory hundred and fifty years later.

    This is basic scientific method. Your attempts to equate faith and theory and science reveals a very poor understanding of science. Laugh away as much as you like. You may have spent too much time laughing at school at not enough time learning.

    You shaming my country’s schools man.

  75. Thomas Gresham

    Dear BFP, please release my post. Thank you.

  76. Georgie Porgie

    Facts
    Is correct in pointing out that the “Theory of Evolution” is not an exact Science
    It is also very true that the Evolutionist bases his beliefs on faith just as the Christian.

    Thomas Gresham
    I can assure you that all believers do not think that the world is only about 6,000 years old. Many theologians believe in the Gap theory, and some, like me just don’t care, simply because the age of the earth is irrelevant to the claims of Christ, and the teaching of the Bible, or a right division thereof. You see the age of the earth is not an essential to believing the Bible.

    Natural selection is random selection. It depends on environmental factors which are random so that a genetic mutation can occur.

    Oh yes “A scientific theory is one which has a testable prediction”. So explain to me how giraffes evolved! Explain to me how the giraffe is the only mammal with valves in their carotid arteries. Explain how those valves evolved. And how giraffes drank before they evolved.

    Maybe no Nobel Laureate in Biology is a “creationist” but all the great scientists like Newton, Faraday etc were known believers in Christ. Did you know that? Your argument there is shallow.

    Any serious knowlegeable believer will tell you that the Bible is not a text book of Science, but whenever the Bible makes a scientific statement it can not be disproved.

    You seem to wallow in the fossil record and its ordering in the layers of the Earth’s strata. Don’t you know anything else?

    Do you know anything about Glycolysis? Can you explain why more than 1 hexokinase enzyme evolved? Can you explain why we have hexokinase 1 & hexokinase 4? What happened before these evolved? Do you have fossil records for that too?

    Can you explain why it is necessary for PFK 1 ( the enzyme that controls glycolysis) to be controlled by PFK2 which is again controlled by another enzyme. Can you explain how the hormones insulin and glucagon control these controllers. Can you explain what happened to organisms prior to the evolution of these enzymes and controlling enzymes? How does fructose and galactose fit into glycolysis.

    How is milk made in the female mammal? What happened before the mechanisms were evolved that cause the switch over from no milk production to milk production. What happened before that very peculiar enzyme evolved?

    What happened before anaerobic glycolysis evolved? Why is it that there are no diseases involving the Krebs cycle? How does evolution account for the difference in the enzymes that begin the urea cycle and the pyramidine nucleoside synthesis? What happened before compartmentalisation in cells EVOLVED? And before the very complex sequences in DNA replication, transcription and translation EVOLVED?

  77. Thomas Gresham

    GP,

    You are clutching at straw men.

    Evolution is not a theory of everything. It is a theory of evolution of species. Evolution has testable predictions and the reason why it is the dominant theory after 150 years is that it is the theory that best meets the evidence. That is what science is about. Maybe one day there will be a theory that better meets the evidence. Until that day I support evolution. That is the scientific method.

    Evolution is not anti-religion per se. It is anti-creationsim, believed by many American fundamentalists – the beginning of this thread.

    Many christians believe in evolution and reject creationsim, an alternative theory about how mankind arrived on earth and a theory which has failed its testable predictions.

    Evolution however is a science, not a matter of faith. It is the theory that so far stands up best to the available evidence and tests.

    Do giraffe’s disprove evolution? Is this the conclusion of the learned journals of animal biology? No. Do molecular cell biologists conclude in the journals that they have disproved evolution? No.

  78. Georgie Porgie

    Exodus 22:28
    You ask a good question. You say …..you would have me accept that contemporary Christians have a superior understanding of those teachings contained in the Olivet Discourse than those who were actually in physical contact with Jesus! Yet we follow their instruction.

    Yes. It is clear that the disciples did not understand a lot of what Jesus said to them when he was in thier presence!

    Let me ask you a few questions. Although the apostles and the Jews in Jesus’ day knew the OT scriptures well, did they understand them fully? Did they understand that Jesus would come to suffer before he would come to reign? NO they didn’t. And why not? Because these concepts appear in the OT often in the same sentence.

    A good example is seen by comparing Isaiah 61 with Luke 4. In the incident in Luke 4, Jesus read from Isaiah 61, and stopped at a comma in the text and said that he had fulfilled that section preceding the comma.

    There are other such prophecies in which the events of the first coming seem to merge into the second coming as the individual hills in a mountain range seem to do.

    The OT prophets and the NT writers did not understand everything they were predicting. They wrote as they were led by the Spirit as related by Peter in 2 Peter 1:18-19. Even Peter admits this in 2 Peter!

    With the passage of time it is clear that there is a big valley between the first coming and the second coming which we call the church Age.

    Why do we believe prophesy? Because of the fact that we know of OT prophesies that have been fulfilled to the last detail.The more OT prophesies that have been fulfilled, the more we believe. Thus we can say now that all the OT prophesies have been fulfilled except those that relate to the second phase of the second coming of Christ.

    The concept of the rapture is not off course taught in the OT. It is how ever alluded to in the “catching up “ of both Enoch and Elijah

    The NT saints were quite correct in believing and teaching the doctrine of imminence, as we do still today. That Jesus did not come in their day does not make them wrong because imminence means he could come at anytime soon. Remember his timing is not ours. We often forget this.

    I have not heard the incorrect statements about the resurrection made to you by the Catholic seminarian or the Anglican student at Codrington College in my studies.

    The resurrection of Christ is a completely different doctrine to that of eschatology. However, the rapture of the believer will involve a resurection as clearly taught in I Cor 15; 52ey sec and I Thes 4:14-18

    1 Corinthians is on the whole a serious discussion on the fact, and meaning of Christ’s resurection and relates it to that of ours, as the chapter ends with a great cresendo!

  79. Rohan

    Let’s make it simple for the believers in gods.

    For one, your arguments AGAINST science does nothing to advance your argument FOR religion. So give it up.

    If evolution were disproven TODAY it would not advance the argument for a magical being in the sky one iota.

    Instead, make a solid argument FOR your belief in God. Show ONE instance of proof. Note, I’m not asking for two, but just ONE set of non-anecdotal evidence that advances your argument.

    The bible doesn’t count, that would be a circular argument: “I believe in the God of the bible because the bible tells me to”.

    So show us something. One piece of evidence FOR your belief. If you have none, and you just believe, then that’s fine. But if you want to argue that your belief is rooted in reality then show evidence. Just one set. Go ahead. I’m waiting……

  80. Georgie Porgie

    Art
    You have grasped the concept of natural selection as it relates to the variations within a species . Note that natural selection has never been shown to occur across a phylum! We can breed dogs with dogs but frogs and fish don’t become men!

    DNA replication, translation and transcription has been well described and elucidated. But there is no proof that the big bang produce a single cell which has evolved into all the plant and animal species we know. And regardless to what one believes NO ONE can get around the Biblical maxims of Genesis that all the plant and animal species REPRODUCE AFTER THEIR OWN KIND! That is a scientific statement that can not be refuted EVER!

    Your understanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics is also correct.. And your reasoning about how DNA was said to have been formed, how would it have found its way into a cell, and found something like RNA to help it to copy itself and to create more cells? Bearing in mind the law of entropy. Your argument is one of those commonly used to refute evolution theories.

    It is simply statistically staggering!

    To do the protein synthesis for the enzymes of one biochemical pathway alone by a random process beginning with a big bang requires as much faith, as it does to believe the Genesis record.

  81. Georgie Porgie

    art

    You are of course very correct when you opine…………….
    My use of the law of thermodynamics stems from order/disorder of the chemicals within a cell. And begs a question as to how they arose in that form. Above post does not address this.
    You are of course very correct here!

  82. art

    Ha ha GP, that’s a good one. Got me there! Even though the one referred to was the post that was 2 above my own. Touche! We should be friends IMHO.

    Rohan, sorry to say IMO you have brought zero scientific or other evidence to the table to justify your claims– except maybe the extreme penman’s adjective and bold refute. Now I think it is time for you to come out and to come clean about your belief. I will also give you a joke in a next post.

    TG that giraffe thing is an example mostly used for the old pre-Darwin Lamarckian theory. We are getting closer, and I enjoyed you last post, hoping not to offend others.

    Recall Gallileo, who was in two minds over his faith and his dicoveries. He made people at the time very angry, but his heart was true.

  83. art

    a guy walks into a bar, sees a man sitting talking to the barman. He’s big, he’s about the hairiest, most wrinkled, ugliest person. His arms are long and hanging down at the sides of the stool. He’s talking to the barman about his life and an issue he is having at his church.

    So the incoming guy says,”Wow, that’s absolutley stupid!”

    “What?”

    “That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard!”

    “Huh?”

    “You’re a moron!”

    Wuggadung!!!

    Which one would you say was stupid?

  84. Rohan

    Rohan, sorry to say IMO you have brought zero scientific or other evidence to the table to justify your claims
    *****
    I have made no claims. I simply do not believe in the christian God or any other one for that matter. You don’t believe in most of them either, but you don’t have to provide evidence for why you don’t believe in Zeus, Krishna, or Xenu.

    The burden of evidence is on the person making the affirmative claim i.e that Jesus, rather than Zeus or Xenu is God. So, again, provide one piece of evidence.
    One.

  85. Rohan

    On another note, why isn’t there a test that proves that prayer works. It would be very easy to set up.

    I just thought this one up in like 10 seconds:

    Have a set of 300 seeds of the same plant. Plant them in exactly the same conditions (maybe indoors so you can perfectly match the lighting and water conditions)

    Divide these plants into 3 groups of 100 each.-Let’s call them group A, B, and C

    For Group A
    Have a set of religious folks pray for the plants in group A to grow TWICE the normal size for that plant.

    For Group B
    Have another set of religious folks pray for the plants in group B to grow HALF the normal size for that plant.

    For Group C
    No one prays for the plants in Group C. (or better yet, let’s have the non-believers pray that the plants just grow to their normal sizes haha)

    What do you think the outcome will be when you take the average size of the plants in each group after a predetermine length of time?

    My prediction: Group A, Group B, and Group C will all be the same size within a reasonable margin of error. The normal size that we expect for that plant. Know why? Prayer does not work. Know why? The thing you’re praying to is in your head.

    Trials like this are easy to set up…we know how to run these types of trials to come to reasonable conclusions about things. That’s why we can create vaccines that work. Why hasn’t there been irrefutable test like this on prayer?

    I know, you’re going to say, “God does not like to be tested.” Well, he allowed the devil to test him by killing Lot’s family to prove that Lot would still be faithful. (Helluva guy isn’t he?)

    So, we’re all smart people here, do a test of your own. You know science works (I just typed this on a computer in the U.S and you can read it instantly around the world). Conduct a test on prayer.

  86. art

    did you read my posts?

  87. Geo.

    Art, your posts are generally too full of Victorian mumbo jumbo and biblical rubbish for us to wade thru.Sorry.
    U’re not cutting the mustard.

  88. Geo.

    If U could just get your head out of the bible, and give us one original metaphysical thought of YOUR OWN, we’d be delighted, but everything you say relates to a dusty tome.
    Not working.
    We want to hear what YOU think about any kinda God/Superior-Being process whuh gyne on, regardless of if Moses, Jesus and/or the bible ever existed or not.
    Can you manage that one?
    be brave.

    NO bible rote.
    we want YOUR thoughts on the matter.

  89. bp

    I know where the photo was taken.

  90. Georgie Porgie

    Thomas Gresham
    I am not clutching at straw men. I am bringing arguments from Science to which you have not responded properly.

    I have not set out to show that giraffe’s disprove evolution. Nor do I care whether this is the conclusion of the learned journals of animal biology. I do understand that if giraffes evolved that it would be necessary for them to have had the valves in their carotid arteries the first time that they bent down to drink! Or the pressure of a column of blood 14 ft long would have caused havoc in their circle of Willis! All I am asking you to do is to think about it.

    Elephants are the only animals that have a nose so highly modified as to need 312 different muscles in them. The evolution of the elephant’s nose/trunk is certainly remarkable evidence of evolution I would think.

    You say that evolution is not a theory of everything. It is a theory of evolution of species.
    So you mean when these living species evolved they evolved perfect right away? Right?

    Thomas can you explain why the pathway leading to the biosynthesis of a compound are distinct from the pathway leading to its breakdown? And how it evolved? Can you explain why and how compartmentalization evolved?

    Can you explain how the following themes in metabolic regulation evolved? All of this is Science? There is evidence for all this?

    • Allosteric regulation
    • Covalent modification
    • Control of enzyme levels
    • Compartmentalization
    • Metabolic specilaization of organs

    • Typically associated with enzymes that catalyze irreversible reactions
    • Allosteric regulators can cause feed back or feedforward regualtion
    • Allosteric regulators are often related to the energy state of the cell
    • This type of regulation allows for immediate response to changes in metabolic flux (milliseconds to seconds)
    • Functions at local level

    • Covalent modification of last step in signal transduction pathway
    • Allows pathway to be rapidly up or down regulated by small amounts of triggering signal (HORMONES)
    • Last longer than do allosteric regulation (seconds to minutes)
    • Functions at whole body level

    Thomas what is the probability that the ten enzymes in the metabolic pathway that converts glucose to pyruvic acid evolved so that they act in the correct sequence? What is the probability that this occurred correctly THE FIRST TIME when the big bang occurred to form the first primordial cell from which all living things evolved?

    What is the probability that PFK 1 would evolve to control this sequence going in the forward direction, and the probability of PFK2 evolving to control PFK1? I wont even talk about how the system works backwards.

    I do not care two hoots whether molecular cell biologists conclude in the journals that they have disproved evolution or not.

    It is one thing for species to evolve, but for them to function after their evolution certain things had to have evolved simultaneously, don’t you think?

    I am not trying to prove anything here because I wont convince you to change your position. Your beliefs are entrenched. I am asking you simple scientific questions that must arise in a reasonable logical mind in the light of the known scientific EVIDENCE cited above.

    I know that I am not a Scientist as you said. I know that I am a fool to believe the Genesis record, but I wonder why it is that the facilitated transport of glucose is mediated by a family of at least five glucose transporters (isoforms) in the cell membrane, designated GLUT-1 to GLUT-5. I wonder why it is that the pentoses, pass across the intestinal barrier by simple passive diffusion. But that the other sugars, notably D-glucose, can be transported against a concentration gradient, and that the last traces of these sugars are absorbed from the intestine in spite of higher concentrations existing in the blood.

    I wonder why it is that the glucose transporters show significant homology in their primary sequence but display a tissue-specific pattern of expression. for example, GLUT1 and GLUT3 are present in the plasma membranes of nearly all cells.

    I wonder why GLUT-1 is abundant in the erythrocyte and brain but low in muscle. I wonder why it is that GLUT-1 has a high affinity for glucose (Km, 2 to 5 mM) and why GLUT2 (Km for glucose about 15 mM) is the glucose transporter in liver, kidney, intestine,and pancreatic beta-cells

    I wonder why it is that GLUT4 is the insulin-dependent isoform that is abundant in skeletal muscle and adipose cells, and why the number and activity of GLUT-4 transporters in adipose tissue and skeletal muscle at the plasma membrane are increased by insulin.

    I wonder how and why these things evolved. Can you help me? If you cant please say so.

    Now I am not honestly trying to prove anything. here.

  91. Geo.

    God loves to be tested.

    It’s man’s addiction to a concept-God that doesn’t appreciate being tested.

    “God not liking to be tested” is yet another defense mechanism the believers invented
    to stop you rocking their fragile boat.
    Don’t you shake their carefully-tuned “faith” now..! That’s not allowed.
    They see themselves as being all-powerful
    after all they “have God” on their side.
    Who do YOU have,Rohan?
    only common sense and science — ROGL!

    Read Dawkins’ THE GOD DELUSION and great big smiles break out all over your face!!

    here’s a few samples of stuff he says
    quotes from here and there within the first 2 chapters ………………………………………………..

    Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful..
    without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?

    ——————————

    To the vast majority of believers around the world
    religion all too closely resembles what you hear
    from the likes of Robertson, Falwell or Haggard
    Osama bin Laden or the Ayatollah Khomeini.
    These are not straw men, they are all too influential,
    and everybody in the modern world has to deal with them

    ———————————-
    I never tire of drawing attention to society’s tacit acceptance
    of the labelling of small children with the religious opinions of their parents!

    This is an anomaly:
    religious opinion is the one kind of parental opinion that -by almost universal consent-
    can be fastened upon children who are, in truth,
    too young to know what their opinion really is!

    There is no such thing as a Christian child: only a child of Christian parents.
    There is NO SUCH THING as a Muslim child: only a child of Islamic parents!

    ——————————

    Fundamentalists know what they believe in
    and they know that nothing will change their minds.
    A quotation from Kurt Wise says it all:
    “…if all the evidence in the Universe turns against creationism,
    I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a Creationist
    because that is what the word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand.”

    It is impossible to over-stress the difference between
    such a passionate commitment to biblical fundamentals
    and the true scientist’s equally passionate commitment to evidence.

    The fundamentalist Kurt Wise proclaims that all the evidence in the universe
    would not change his mind.

    The true scientist, however passionately he may ‘believe’ in evolution,
    knows exactly what it would take to change his mind: empirical evidence.

    ————————–

    If the ‘comfort’ that religion seems to offer is founded on
    the neurologically highly-implausible premise
    that we somehow survive the death of our brains..
    do you really want to defend it??
    In any case, I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone at a funeral
    who dissents from the view that the non-religious parts
    (eulogies, the deceased’s favourite poems/music)
    are more moving than the prayers!

    —————————

    I suspect that, for many people,
    the main reason they cling to religion is not that it is consoling
    but that they have been let down by our educational system
    and don’t realize that non-belief is even an option!!

    ————————

    I prefer to say that I believe in people, and people,
    when given the right encouragement to think for themselves
    about all the information now available
    very often turn out to not believe in God
    and to lead fulfilled and satisfied -indeed,liberated- lives!

    —————————

    I suspect that there are a lot of people out there
    who have been brought up in some religion or other..
    are unhappy in it
    don’t believe it
    or are worried about the evils that are done in its name/s
    …people who feel vague yearnings to leave their parents’ religions
    and wish they could
    but just don’t realize that Leaving is an option!

    If you are one of them,
    Richard Dawkins’ book THE GOD DELUSION is for you
    – if you can get a copy to buy in religiously-backward Barbados!

    ——————————

    To be an atheist is a realistic aspiration
    and a brave and splendid one.

    You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced,
    normal, moral and intellectually fulfilled!

    You don’t have to believe in the fairies
    down at the bottom of the beautiful garden.

    ———————————

    I was delighted with the advertisement that (UK) Channel Four put in the national newspapers.
    It was a picture of the Manhattan skyline with the caption
    “Imagine a world without religion”

    What was the connection?
    The Twin Towers of the World Trade center were conspicuously present.

    —————————-

    Imagine, with John Lennon… a world with no religion.

    Imagine no suicide bombers,
    no 9/11
    no July 7th (London Underground Bombings)
    no Crusades (yeah but that was such FUN,man!)
    no with hunts (NO WITCH HUNTS? -WHAT are you SAYING?)
    no Gunpowder Plot (Nov. 5th. – Guy Fawkes et alumni)
    no Indian partition
    no Israeli/Palestinian wars
    no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres
    no persecution of Jews as “Christ-Killers”
    no Northern Ireland ‘troubles’
    no idiotic ‘honour killings’
    no shiny-suited bouffant-haired Televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money
    (“God wants you to give til it HURTS!”)

    Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues
    no public beheadings of “blasphemers”
    no flogging of female skin for the “crime” of showing an inch of it.

  92. Geo.

    In the same way the Koran is utterly irrelevant to you,art,
    the Xian bible is utterly irrelevant to me and most realists
    who have intellectualised themselves beyond religions and the need for psychological ‘support’

    That stuff is for girls
    who always need someone ‘to be there for them’

    Maybe that’s why they go to the bathroom in teams.
    – ‘Support’…poor feeble things.

    Stand on your own 2 feet, like a man.
    Fearlessly face the reality of your inevitable death.

    It’s merely the last bodily function you’ll ever be called upon to do.
    Lie down and die.

    People do it every day!!
    C’mon, art!

  93. Geo.

    There is no evidence in the geological record from a global flood.

    There is however evidence in the geo. record that supports a rather large flood event
    in the Black Sea area, that involved (and may have created) the narrow waterway we now call the Bosphorus
    – think Turkey.

    In those days(when Barbados and Australia simply didn’t exist in the 500-mile-dia. “world” that was the Middle East and nowhere else!)
    ..yes ‘the whole world’ as they knew it.. flooded.

    While Barbados and Australia were in a parching Dry Season, no doubt.

  94. art

    Hey Geo, thanks. Victorian eh? Hmmm, starting to smile.

    I feel maybe you refuse to discuss/refute some postings. It’s easier to shred GP than me?

    Maybe you guys should bone up from Wikepedia?

  95. Georgie Porgie

    Thomas Gresham
    I am not clutching at straw men. I am bringing arguments from Science to which you have not responded properly.

    I have not set out to show that giraffe’s disprove evolution. Nor do I care whether this is the conclusion of the learned journals of animal biology. I do understand that if giraffes evolved that it would be necessary for them to have had the valves in their carotid arteries the first time that they bent down to drink! Or the pressure of a column of blood 14 ft long would have caused havoc in their circle of Willis! All I am asking you to do is to think about it.

    Elephants are the only animals that have a nose so highly modified as to need 312 different muscles in them. The evolution of the elephant’s nose/trunk is certainly remarkable evidence of evolution I would think.

    You say that evolution is not a theory of everything. It is a theory of evolution of species.
    So you mean when these living species evolved they evolved perfect right away?

    Thomas can you explain why the pathway leading to the biosynthesis of a compound are distinct from the pathway leading to its breakdown? And how it evolved?

    Can you explain how the following themes in metabolic regulation evolved? All of this is Science?

    • Allosteric regulation
    • Covalent modification
    • Control of enzyme levels
    • Compartmentalization
    • Metabolic specilaization of organs

    • Typically associated with enzymes that catalyze irreversible reactions
    • Allosteric regulators can cause feed back or feedforward regualtion
    • Allosteric regulators are often related to the energy state of the cell
    • This type of regulation allows for immediate response to changes in metabolic flux (milliseconds to seconds)
    • Functions at local level

    • Covalent modification of last step in signal transduction pathway
    • Allows pathway to be rapidly up or down regulated by small amounts of triggering signal (HORMONES)
    • Last longer than do allosteric regulation (seconds to minutes)
    • Functions at whole body level

    Thomas what is the probability that the ten enzymes that convert glucose to pyruvic acid evolved so that they act in the correct sequence? What is the probability that this occurred correctly THE FIRST TIME when the big bang occurred to form the first primordial cell from which all living things evolved?

    What is the probability that PFK 1 would evolve to control this sequence going in the forward direction, and the probability of PFK2 evolving to control PFK1?

    I do not care two hoots whether molecular cell biologists conclude in the journals that they have disproved evolution or not.

    It is one thing for species to evolve, but for them to function after their evolution certain things had to have evolved simultaneously, don’t you think?

    I am not trying to prove anything here because I wont convince you to change your position. Your beliefs are entrenched. I am asking you simple scientific questions that must arise in a reasonable logical mind in the light of the known scientific EVIDENCE cited above.

    I wonder why it is that the facilitated transport of glucose is mediated by a family of at least five glucose transporters (isoforms) in the cell membrane, designated GLUT-1 to GLUT-5.

    I wonder why it is that the pentoses, pass across the intestinal barrier by simple passive diffusion. But that the other sugars, notably D-glucose, can be transported against a concentration gradient, and that the last traces of these sugars are absorbed from the intestine in spite of higher concentrations existing in the blood.
    .
    I wonder why it is that the glucose transporters show significant homology in their primary sequence but display a tissue-specific pattern of expression. for example, GLUT1 and GLUT3 are present in the plasma membranes of nearly all cells.

    I wonder why GLUT-1 is abundant in the erythrocyte and brain but low in muscle. I wonder why it is that GLUT-1 has a high affinity for glucose (Km, 2 to 5 mM) and why GLUT2 (Km for glucose about 15 mM) is the
    glucose transporter in liver, kidney, intestine,and pancreatic beta-cells

    I wonder why it is that GLUT4 is the insulin-dependent isoform that is abundant in skeletal muscle and adipose cells, and why the number and activity of GLUT-4 transporters in adipose tissue and skeletal muscle at the plasma membrane are increased by insulin.

    I wonder how and why these things evolved. Can you help me? If you cant please say so.

  96. Geo.

    http://www.flamewarrior.com/
    for assertive atheism,that is…
    don’t go there Art…to scary.
    might change U sorry.

  97. Geo.

    Gresham worries that..
    Your attempts to equate faith and theory and science
    reveals a very poor understanding of science.
    Laugh away as much as you like.
    You may have spent too much time laughing at school
    and not enough time learning.

    You shaming my country’s schools man.

    but that’s not the case, G.

    BornAgain/fundamentalist Christians see the diminution of market share, the reduced interest, the onslaught of science daily weekly proving and disproving things that are getting ‘a little too close to home’ for their comfort!

    There is a HUGE movement on
    to prove the bible correct and accurate,
    to the point where bible prophecy is to be made to come true
    even if it kills us all!

    Armageddon must be made to come true,
    and the Geo. W. Bush camp is a big part of that.
    Those tanks MUST roll down the A. Valley and soon,
    (Jan. 20th. is the deadline, when W gives way to whoever!)
    this is seriously-bent-out-of-shape religious bible prophecy stuff
    lurking in History’s wings,
    and imminent,too!

    Gird thy loins, den!

    Look out.
    The shirt gyne hit de fan jes’ now.

    ————
    Doan worry..
    They all went to school, and learn as good as me an’ you
    -they know exactly what Science you talkin bout,
    but these dudes GOT AN AGENDA
    a deadly serious bible prophecy agenda.

  98. Geo.

    I shred no-one in particular.
    I shred ole fashioned deliberate stupidity
    and beliefs in Obeah of all sorts,
    black magic and white magic!

    All gyne get shred by me
    and by science and rational human intellect
    thinking outside the bible box.

    We are no longer thinking the way we were trained to think, in Harrison College and at Lodge
    back in the 50s and 60s!

    We are now thinking/deliberating for ourselves,
    figuring it out rationally….

    and the bible talmud and koran (and other allegedly-holy tomes)
    contain little rational stuff..unless you prefer to maintain the emotional attachment to this thinking of yore.

  99. Geo.

    Western civilization is hamstrung by an ancient fable – one which is certainly not true and appears more preposterous the more closely it is examined. In any fair examination, one would need to contrast the alleged incidents with known human behavior modes and compare the alleged events to human nature and well-understood laws of physics, as well as to logic and reason. We can step back a little and examine the big picture in an attempt to strip away the facade of superstition, urban legend, hearsay, and pure bullshit. Given the late date – long after the alleged incidents – at which the alleged events were committed to paper, AND given that it was not recorded by actual witnesses, AND given the propensity for tales to get better and more detailed with every telling, AND given the apparent lack of adherence to any recognizable standards for the review and validation of evidence, AND given the depths of ignorance and superstition in which the world was generally steeped on that day, I think it is fair to assume that we do not have a true and accurate account – and certainly not a factual account – of events depicted in the bible. With a clear eye and a little perspective, it appears that any convergence with fact is purely coincidental.

    To gain a more realistic picture of the period covered in the bible, we can, for the sake of argument, start with the assumption that the players were living, breathing human beings, driven by the same survival requirements as current humans as well as the same basic social pressures which have been common to humans since we started living in groups. We can also make certain reasonable assumptions about the existence of magic and the practice of flim-flam, both forms of fakery still in common use today. Armed with this knowledge, we can make certain rational assumptions about characters claiming to operate under special rules and “supernatural” forces. In this age we know them all to be hucksters, charlatans, and televangelists, and all – ALL of them – to be 100% full of shirt and ill purpose. Follow the money.

  100. Geo.

    Bearing all that in mind, we can start to look at the biblical fables in a more realistic light. We come up with the following:
    Around 2000 years ago, in the Middle East, there may have been a traveling preacher, who we currently refer to as “Jesus”. He was one of thousands of assorted preachers, seers, shamans, and mystics roaming that part of the world seeking a following and a career. He, like the others, was a product of his environment. Education was generally unavailable. What education was available was of very low standard compared to what is available today. The general population was highly illiterate, highly superstitious, and highly gullible.

    The first aspect of his alleged deism that needs to be brought back to reality are the highly suspect circumstances surrounding his birth. Much has been made of the miraculous virgin birth. As is increasingly widely held among biblical scholars, “virgin” is a mistranslation – one of xianity’s founding principles is a mistake from the git-go. Also, considering that his mother was married to his father, it is even more unlikely that the mother was a virgin. If, however, the mother found herself inexplicably pregnant under circumstances where the father would have reason to doubt his own contribution to the situation, then blaming it on some supernatural intervention might have worked, thereby proving my point about rampant gullibility. If we saw it happen today we would know that the mother was caught screwing around. But despite the ironic humor of that scenario, it is far more likely that the two married parents were completely responsible for the normal birth of a human child. Certainly no reasonable person would give much credence to supernatural claims.
    We know better now,art.

  101. JC was psychotic?

    The occasional human mind is bothered by what we know in laymen’s terms as the “god complex”.
    It is a euphoric/psychotic state in which the individual believes his own mind to be omnipotent and omniscient.
    It is somewhat context specific – its manifestation depend on the religious background of the individual
    – In Christian cultures, the afflicted claim to be God or Jesus,
    while in other cultures they claim Allah or Buddha or Vishnu.
    The level of incapacitation covers a spectrum – from minor and manageable
    to complete and debilitating.
    Some of these people operate at a high level.
    Some are a real threat.

    Today we recognize this malady for what it is
    – a dangerous disease –
    and we either medicate or hospitalize the afflicted.
    The one thing we do not do
    …is believe any of them!

    Havelock Ellis said, “The whole religious complexion of the modern world
    is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum.”
    To this I say “Amen”.

  102. Geo.

    The Failure of Faith.
    _______________________
    Faith represents the primacy of wishful thinking over reason.
    It is a corrupt paradigm and, as such, must necessarily fail in the sense that
    the more closely it is examined,
    the more its contradictions with reality are exposed
    and the more it’s practitioners are forced into more convoluted and ridiculous defenses.

  103. Georgie Porgie

    Thomas Gresham
    I am not clutching at straw men. I am bringing arguments from Science to which you have not responded properly.

    I have not set out to show that giraffe’s disprove evolution. Nor do I care whether this is the conclusion of the learned journals of animal biology. I do understand that if giraffes evolved that it would be necessary for them to have had the valves in their carotid arteries the first time that they bent down to drink! Or the pressure of a column of blood 14 ft long would have caused havoc in their circle of Willis! All I am asking you to do is to think about it.

    Elephants are the only animals that have a nose so highly modified as to need 312 different muscles in them. The evolution of the elephant’s nose/trunk is certainly remarkable evidence of evolution I would think.

    You say that evolution is not a theory of everything. It is a theory of evolution of species.
    So you mean when these living species evolved they evolved perfect right away?

    Thomas can you explain why the pathway leading to the biosynthesis of a compound are distinct from the pathway leading to its breakdown? And how it evolved?

    Can you explain how the following themes in metabolic regulation evolved? All of this is Science? NO?

    • Allosteric regulation
    • Covalent modification
    • Control of enzyme levels
    • Compartmentalization
    • Metabolic specilaization of organs

    • Typically associated with enzymes that catalyze irreversible reactions
    • Allosteric regulators can cause feed back or feedforward regualtion
    • Allosteric regulators are often related to the energy state of the cell
    • This type of regulation allows for immediate response to changes in metabolic flux (milliseconds to seconds)
    • Functions at local level

    • Covalent modification of last step in signal transduction pathway
    • Allows pathway to be rapidly up or down regulated by small amounts of triggering signal (HORMONES)
    • Last longer than do allosteric regulation (seconds to minutes)
    • Functions at whole body level

    Thomas what is the probability that the ten enzymes that convert glucose to pyruvic acid evolved so that they act in the correct sequence? What is the probability that this occurred correctly THE FIRST TIME when the big bang occurred to form the first primordial cell from which all living things evolved?

    What is the probability that PFK 1 would evolve to control this sequence going in the forward direction, and the probability of PFK2 evolving to control PFK1?

    I do not care two hoots whether molecular cell biologists conclude in the journals that they have disproved evolution or not.

    It is one thing for species to evolve, but for them to function after their evolution certain things had to have evolved simultaneously, don’t you think?

    I am not trying to prove anything here because I wont convince you to change your position. Your beliefs are entrenched. I am asking asking you simple scientific questions that must arise in a reasonable logical mind in the light of the known scientific EVIDENCE cited above.

    I wonder why it is that the facilitated transport of glucose is mediated by a family of at least five glucose transporters (isoforms) in the cell membrane, designated GLUT-1 to GLUT-5. I wonder why it is that the pentoses, pass across the intestinal barrier by simple passive diffusion. But that the other sugars, notably D-glucose, can be transported against a concentration gradient, and that the last traces of these sugars are absorbed from the intestine in spite of higher concentrations existing in the blood.

    I wonder why it is that the glucose transporters show significant homology in their primary sequence but display a tissue-specific pattern of expression. for example, GLUT1 and GLUT3 are present in the plasma membranes of nearly all cells. I wonder why GLUT-1 is abundant in the erythrocyte and brain but low in muscle.

    I wonder why it is that GLUT-1 has a high affinity for glucose (Km, 2 to 5 mM) and why GLUT2 (Km for glucose about 15 mM) is the glucose transporter in liver, kidney, intestine,and pancreatic beta-cells

    I wonder why it is that GLUT4 is the insulin-dependent isoform that is abundant in skeletal muscle and adipose cells, and why the number and activity of GLUT-4 transporters in adipose tissue and skeletal muscle at the plasma membrane are increased by insulin.

    I wonder how and why these things evolved. Can you help me? If you cant please say so.

  104. Magic Man

    GP.

    I have the answer to all your scientific questions;

    A Magic Man in the sky did it

  105. Magic Man

    GP.

    Your posts honestly are rather pathetic.

    You think by listing a litany of biological processes and asking how they evolved is impressing anyone? (other than yourself)

    This is known as the argument from personal incredulity or similarly ‘argumentum ad ignorantiam’

    Just because you dont understand it, the claim it is invalid is a logical fallacy.

    Like you say you “do not care two hoots” what “molecular cell biologists conclude in the journals”
    After all they are only leaders in the field and a whole lot cleverer than you, so why listen to them. Continue your “appeal to ignorance”

    Somehow I doubt you did well in debate. The argument from personal incredulity is a poor strategy and wont get you any points.

    Left to you there would be no point studying evolutionary biology, why “a magic man did it” would be your whole text book.

    Anyhow keep up the appeal to ignorance, I am having a good time reading it.

  106. Magic Man

    By the GP, enlighten me, what exactly are those fossil specimens in museums worldwide if not dinosaurs ?

    what are they?

  107. Davy de Verteuil of Trinidad and Tobago

    Re-colonisation if you may. Thanks for your fist part-compliment-no thanks to you 2nd part re-colonisation suggestion. We aren’t apathetic we are just not interested. So keep your foreign gospel Americas need it more.

  108. Thomas Gresham

    Dear GP,

    I do not know where to start and I am reluctant to give you an excuse for another long winded, confusing, and irrelevant note.

    Unlike you I do not pretend to be an expert in every department of science, but I know where to find what the experts think.

    Please find us an article in one of the leading peer review journals of science that debunks evolution.

    Journals, as you know, because you know everything and nothing at the same time, have rankings. The leading journals in the field are: Cell, Annual Review of Biochemistry, Nature and Science. Find us a single article written over the last 20 years in one of those journals that debunks evolution.

    Please find me the name of a single Nobel Laureate in Physiology and Medicine (this is the category that biologists win) who has debunked the theory of evolution.

    Hopefully this search will keep you quiet for a while…….but know, you will probably have an explanation as to why every Nobel Laureate and leading peer review journal are ignorant and must bow down to you.

    While clutching at straws you said that famous scientists like Newton and Farraday were believers in faith, intimating that they were not believers in evolution. Difficult for Newton really as he lived 1642-1727 and “The Origin of Species”, Darwin’s testable proposition was published in 1859. Its like saying that Einstein’s 1905 Theory of Relativity isn’t what it is cracked up to be because Newton didn’t believe in it. At the time these great works came out they were theories based on observations with testable predictions which other independent people could carry out, discover, validate or debunk – that’s science not faith. 150 years later, the Origin of Species is still standing.

  109. art

    Good morning! I’ve spent the night happily as a Victorian. My daughter says Victorian is as portrayed in “The Princess Diaries”, i.e. watch out for snakes when riding side-saddle, do archery badly (while playing Nintendo DS same time). On the other other hand my wife says if it is Victorian I’m Phileas Fogg. For myself I see want to be King of Siam, humbled by a “”mere”” educated woman of Victorian England. So dreams were sweet.

    Still torn- Don Szechuan versus Phileas Fogg- an Olympian struggle, but in the end we compromised and gave the meddles away.

    Geo says: “”That stuff is for girls
    who always need someone ‘to be there for them’
    Maybe that’s why they go to the bathroom in teams.
    – ‘Support’…poor feeble things.””

    That’s you’re story Geo, stick to it. It’s written down now up the thread- even if you deny it I’ll think you’re a liar. Unless this is a role play I would have to logically conclude that Geo is either 1) Gay, or 2) a Male Chauvinist Pig. But that does not mean his opinions are invalid, nor does it prevent me from respecting one’s sexual pref. Au contraire. On the other hand, I’m still trying to understand the anger above at religion.

    It’s the Sigmund Freud in me, you see.

    Nextoffly, using female adjectives in a derogatory sense as quoth does not seem to be something that this modern “Victorian” (you may call me phileas) human can let pass. I humbly put it to the blog that all sexes are equal, and equally discerning. Nuff said? Can we hear from a woman as to whether she thinks that the Geo statement, if bothered to be read, is a balanced one? Maybe we should let this be.

    Away to another area: an anonymous blogger above has pasted in a derogatory site towards Gays. It is quite offensive and I cannot bring myself to even print its words, far less click on it. One can only say that all three beliefs: religion, scientific theory and sexual preference have this in common: the indivisual is free to choose what he/she wishes. We live in democracy, and should be free to enjoy our lives without reprisals.

    My Victorian self loves this! Vive la Revolution! Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite- all persons equal under the law!

    TG may I please say great levelheadedness. Your choice may be different from my own, but hope that it doesn’t prevent the Nobel committee from striking you (or me) off the list :>)

    To no one in perticular- how’re the Wikipedia searches going?

    To BFP, I think I shall possibly take my leave. We’ve exhausted much of the material. Abuse by bloggers of others is not a solution to their, or their antitheses’ problems/opinions. May I respectfully say (with aplogies for the roughness above) that we should be more gentle henceforth. After all the meek shall inherit?
    Or is it survival of the fittest?

    Go forward good people!

    I still respect you, whatever you think or say

  110. 329.184.83.168

    oh dear
    those two interesting url’s someone posted
    got taken down quickly.
    pity
    cant have that sorta stuff being widely circulated.
    might make ppl think.
    good work auntie moses.
    gotta maintain the status quo u know.

  111. Geo.

    It’s the fittest, art.

    turning the other cheek just gets u another slap.
    the meek get even more downtrodden.
    nature(God) dictates that evolution requires the fittest to survive.

    the meek get cast aside in a harsh world,
    and it is a harsh world, despite your boy’s urgings for us to chill out a bit and try to be civilized(good message btw, but planetary conditions demand a bit more)

  112. Any perceived anger at religion
    is due to the fact it has bullshirted millions for so many millenia,
    to the point where it’s become a mental addiction that’s now hard to break
    becoz so many people have been saying the stuff
    for so long
    they now believe their own propaganda!

    And THAT, art,
    is a truly dangerous state of affairs
    where a nation/country/whatever starts to believe its own propaganda!!
    Nevertheless, cracks are running across the wall..cracks like flamewarrior dot com ..shedding some light on the hypnotic dark ages.

    Ever widening cracks that
    the religions are madly trying to plug and repair,
    but alas structural failure is to blame for most cracks,
    and the bldg. is coming down dammit,
    after so many years of successfully keeping people foolish and believing.
    What a shame, huh?

    _________________
    Your gay, chauvinist-pig boyfriend, Geo.

    P.S. – Love U! xx

  113. Geo.

    In case you think I’m anti-women, nothing could be further from the truth
    for they are the very backbone of society(and also the church),
    because they are(most of them?)
    reared to be mentally feeble by their mothers
    (reared in the same way)
    they “need” the church.

    It’s a cool ‘belief club’ that gives them something to do in the 15 years they live on after their husbands die
    and leave them ‘without a life’.
    It provides solace in the winter of their lives..
    They get to meet friends at church and chat
    and arrange Bingos and other cool stuff.
    Girls are the backbone of the church, but that’s ok…we can and will change their thinking eventually, despite the generations of brainwashing.

    Have you seen the utter plethora of websites out there devoted to change?
    You and the church should really DO something about that.
    Those cracks are looking BAAAD,dude.
    Time to call in the engineers!
    Ban the internet.
    DO something, art!

  114. art

    Glad to see u came out geo. Luv u 2!

  115. Facts

    Thomas Gersham,

    While it is true that Darwin’s theory came after Newton’s death, I think the more salient point Georgie Porgie is trying to make is that men like Newton were scientists who believed in the Word of God. They never got carried away or deceived by the alluring postulations of science.

    There is nothing wrong with science in itself. The problem comes when the Bible and Science are at odds.

    I will present you with some facts on what you call “science” within 24 hours.

  116. Facts

    Thomas Gersham,
    I think you should commend Georgie Porgie on his questions and comments – THAT IS SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH!

  117. Georgie Porgie

    Magic Man

    Obviously my litany of biological processes and asking how they evolved does not impress anybody because you do not understand what the litany is saying. I did not offer a conclusion, but asked that you think about the statistical probability that these things could evolve in a functional manner.

    There is nothing illogical about that argument.

    The fact is that I DO understand the Biochemistry I put forward. I teach Biochemistry.

    All of us that read journals know that not everything in journals are true or accurate. That can not be refuted. Even the leaders in their field have to come back and rewrite what they think they understood yesterday. Ah lie? How many theories of the atom did it take to come up with the correct position?

    I had to study evolutionary biology, but I prefer the Genesis record. I have the right to do so. Just as you have to believe what ever you believe.

  118. Georgie Porgie

    Thomas Gresham
    You say that you are not an expert in every department of science, yet you debunk the Biochemical SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that I have presented .

    I am not guided by what the experts think. I have a brain too! I am guided by revelation from God in interpreting the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that has been presented. Whether you agree with my conclusions or not.

    You are seeking to debunk Christianity, but I am not seeking to debunk evolution. I have only asked that you consider the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that I presented..

    I am saying that any natural selection that has occurred must have done so at the molecular and cellular level also, and not only externally.

    Darwin’s finches had beaks that had a different shape to other finches. This was the result of their adaptation to their peculiar and particular environment. And these changes could be seen externally to the eye. But to change the shape of their beaks, changes had to occur biochemically at both the molecular and cellular level also, since in the final analysis LIFE IS CHEMISTRY. The SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that is being continually unearthed proclaim this in all the Basic Sciences that physicians study.

    My finding articles in magazines or journals that debunks evolution is irrelevant to my argument because that is not my interest or argument. I do not care whether Nobel Laureates in Physiology and Medicine debunk evolution or not. If their interest is in Physiology why should they of necessity care about evolution:? I am interested in Biochemistry & Pharmacology particularly- but not evolution..

    I have not said that I know everything or that every or any Nobel Laureate and leading peer review journal are ignorant and must bow down to me – and you know it.

    That famous scientists like Newton and Farraday were believers in faith is fact- not clutching at straws. Nor did I intimate anything! The Origin of Species is of great importance to you, and I believe you have that right. Why do you attempt to denigrate me because I believe and prefer the Bible?

    At no time in any of my posts, have I sought to insult you or belittle your scholarship.

    I repeat what I said in my last post…..

    It is one thing for species to evolve, but for them to function after their evolution certain things had to have evolved simultaneously, don’t you think? THIS STATEMENT IS LOGICAL AND CANT BE REFUTED!

    I am not trying to prove anything here because I wont convince you to change your position. Your beliefs are entrenched.

    I am asking you simple scientific questions that must arise in a reasonable logical mind in the light of the known scientific EVIDENCE which I cited That’s all. Provide a logical answer to this conundrum. Tell me what you think or how you interpret the science, because I understand that you do believe in scientific discoveries. All I asked you to do is to think of the statistical probabilities. I am not asking you to come to the conclusion that I obviously hold.

    Step up to the plate and stop hiding behind experts in journals who have not debunked evolution as your defense.

  119. Eddie

    Good going GP.

    You are trained in this area, therefore your answers should be able to bring creditability to the discussion.
    I am glad that there are people like you out there who can forthrighly match science with science.
    The problem is, even though your comments seem solid, I don’t think it will make one iota of difference to the naysayers.

  120. Anon27

    Regardless of your beliefs, this has been one of the most stimulating and thought provoking threads that BFP has had in a good while.
    Well debated by highly intelligent people.

  121. Thomas Gresham

    GP.

    You have proved my point nicely. Thank you.

  122. Magic Man

    And you proved mine too when you wrote :

    “I did not offer a conclusion, but asked that you think about the statistical probability that these things could evolve in a functional manner”

    The appeal to ignorance – Just because YOU think it is improbable, it must be improbable.

    Sorry it does not quite work like that. Statistical improbability is an old canard of the creationist crackpots.

    Show us the papers disproving evolution using statistical improbability. Why any scientist who could do that would have his name set down in history forever.

    Opps, sorry that is right you have no interest in experts on the matter, you have your brain.

    Now you say you “prefer” the genesis record. Can you give us any scientific evidence to back up this creation myth (as opposed to dozens other creation myths).?

    Is preference how we should decide things are true?

    By the way, what are those “fake” bones in the museum? I am still curious

  123. The BMNH would be ‘delighted’ to hear that their specimens on exhibit are considered fake
    – but they probably know that already.

    You see, guys
    dinosaurs did not exist in the bible
    whose record allegedly starts from day 1
    and therefore they cannot now we acknowledged by the believers in the bible.

    We gotta get one thing straight.
    Believers believe in the bible more than they believe anything else,
    perhaps even the contents of said bible.

    Theirs is the cult OF THE BOOK.
    Without that book, they would not know what to think independently
    on a metaphysical/paranormal/spiritual level.
    They HAVE TO believe what they induced to believe.

    NO independent thinking, PLEASE!

    I once had a long earnest conversation
    with 2 members of the Jehovah’s Witness cult.
    It was a Saturday morning, but how did you know THAT?!
    (Incidentally, there are only 144,000 entry certificates issued for The Kingdom Of Heaven
    all taken already of course
    but they DO have a ‘workaround’ theory for that problem, never mind, so art is safe, he’s in!)
    and I’m dead dead serious about that last bit.

    But our conversation went well
    as I questioned them about the extent of their beliefs.
    Turns out is it bound by the two covers(back and front) of the bible, and no further.
    NO thinking outside the box,please
    – we’re Jehovah’s Witnesses!
    They were perfectly honest and up front about that,too!

    Does any life exist anywhere else in the entire Universe?
    No, an emphatic NO. Not possible.
    (not mentioned in the tome, duuhh, therefore not possible)

    What a fricking shock these dudes are gonna get when,
    in a few years time
    the UFO cat is let out of the bag it’s been confined to, for the last half-century!!

    These people are seriously backward-thinking and confined in their thinkings, and loving it too.
    It’s really bad.

  124. Facts

    Thomas Gersham,
    I’m back.
    This topic is pretty deep and could be confusing for those not trained in science (of which I’ll admit, am not).

    I think GP above did a fine job on this subject and has brought a clear balanced view.

    You asked him to show one peer review journal that debunks the Evolution Theory. That question is filled with biase and deception as the scientists who contribute to those scientific journals are in the main, purponents of evolution.
    Any creationist -scientist making contributions to journals have to by and large not let their beliefs be known. Should they expose themselves, they would be held up to peer ridicule and ostracism.
    In addition, if the creation-scientist depends on grants for his research and he lets his beliefs be known, he could kiss his career goodbye.

  125. Eddie

    Geo,
    I am not a Jehovah’s Witness, nor a sympathiser. However, you said that they are backward thinking.
    It may not necessarily be backward thinking as a matter of religious indoctrination.

    But aren’t we all indoctrinated? Don’t you have your own beliefs (which aren’t necessariliy correct in all cases)?

    My point is, that tolerance should prevail.

    Ironically, it is the lack of tolerance that leads to totalitarianism and savagery.

  126. Thomas Gresham

    Dear Facts,

    You said

    “You asked [GP] to show one peer review journal that debunks the Evolution Theory. That question is filled with biase and deception as the scientists who contribute to those scientific journals are in the main, purponents of evolution.”

    Ever wondered why the peer-review journals are filled with people who support evolution?

    Ever wondered why those whose work stands up to peer review all support evolution?

    Ever wondered why the journals that practice scientific method dont have any articles that support creationism?

    Oh. I see its all a conspiracy……

  127. Thomas Gresham

    Oh and Facts, I didn’t ask for one article in one journal. I made it easy for GP, I asked for any article over the past twenty years in any of the five of the top ranked journals by citation.

    I have no fear expanding the equation to a couple articles in any of the top 10 journals by citation if that would make it easier still. That’s about finding 2 articles out of 10,000. I am not asking for 10% of the articles to argue against the current thinking on evolution, that would be 1,000, I am not asking for 1% of the articles, that would be 100.

    What should that make us think about what experts in the field think about the balance of evidence?

  128. Eddie

    Georgie Porgie

    Would be grateful if you can assist Thomas as my simple lay terms don’t seem to make sense.

  129. Georgie Porgie

    @ Magic Man

    I did not say that because I YOU think it is improbable, it must be improbable. Again I did not offer a conclusion, but asked that you think about the statistical probability that these things could evolve in a functional manner.

    Statistics is used by all mathematicians and scientists. There is as you know probability theory for this and that. Why not for the arrangement of the enzymes in glycolysis. I don’t have to show you disproving evolution using statistical improbability. That is not my interest. I only ask you to examine the idea that is all.

    I don’t have to give any scientific evidence to back up the creation record. If you can not see it, how can I help you? You are not blind because you CAN NOT SEE, you are blind because you WILL NOT SEE.

    The scriptures declare “the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handiwork”

    I also like this passage in Romans 1:20-22
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were athankful; but became bvain in their imaginations, and their cfoolish heart was ddarkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be awise, they became fools,

    @ Eddie, I am fully aware that my comments will not make one iota of difference to the naysayers. But I have the responsibility to obey the tenets of 1 Peter 3:15; and that I am doing.

    @ Facts

    Facts

    You are quite correct that currently “Any creationist -scientist making contributions to journals have to by and large not let their beliefs be known. Should they expose themselves, they would be held up to peer ridicule and ostracism. In addition, if the creation-scientist depends on grants for his research and he lets his beliefs be known, he could kiss his career goodbye.”

    This is occurring routinely in the USA. There was a recent documentary about that same issue recently.

  130. Thomas Gresham

    GP and Facts,

    Oh, you are making me feel sorry for these poor little creationists, too shy to stand up to the peer-review that every other scientist has to too unsure of their convictions to want to stand up for what they believe in.

    Who would have thought it? Who would have thought that the supporters of Karl Rove and the moral majority who almost invented the political attack ad and other Christian Fundamentalists that are busy taking school boards to court in the US for teaching evolution were really at the heart just shy, insecure people, with little conviction and too afraid to stand up to scrutiny and review from their scientific peers.

    There are clearly not as brave or do not believe in their convictions as much as Charles Darwin or Galileo who, when he proposed their theories were so vilified by the religious establishment that they had to go into hiding.

    I have published a handful of articles in peer review journals myself and you can tell them from me that it really is not very painful at all. All it requires is having a logical argument that stands up to scrutiny by your peers and independent verification of the evidence.

  131. Eddie

    Thomas Gersham,
    Don’t tell half of the story.
    What about the USA constitution outlawing the teaching of Christianity in public schools?

    By the way, Evolution theory is not this wonderful error – proof gift of knowledge endowed to man by Darwin as you would have us believe. It is suspect and questionable.

  132. Magic Man

    The man who says all the fossils in all the museums and universities of the world are fake is calling me blind

    Well that says it all

  133. Magic Man

    Eddie,

    Write to head of biology of any reputable university in the US, the UK, Australia in Europe and ask them if the theory of evolution is “suspect and questionable”

    Come back tell us the results.

    After all you were so impressed by the “scientific evidence” given by Georgie why not check with some of his peers?

    Cant hurt can it?

    I suppose it could be a conspiracy but you can make that call after hearing from them.

  134. Magic Man

    Many of these heads may even be christians ! surely you would trust them to give their honest learned view?

  135. Magic Man

    By the way the teaching of christianity is not outlawed in the US. In theology one can learn about the many many religions including that most recent of religions, christianity.

    ************************

    BFP says,

    There are many religions that are older than Christianity, and many that are much newer. Buhudism is about 500 years older than Christianity, while Islam is about 1300 years newer than Christianity.

    Are you trying to make a point that the older a religion is, the more “valid” or “true” it is?

    (That’s from memory… somebody can research the true dates if they feel like it)

  136. Thomas Gresham

    Did anyone say that evolution theory is error proof?

    No, what we said was that evolution theory is the one that makes testable predictions that best fits the available evidence.

    Perhaps one day evidence will be found that suggests there is an even better theory and those on this blog who appreciate and follow the scientific method will adopt that theory as the one which makes predictions that best fits the available evidence.

    We do not support evolution theory out of any faith, but out of an evidence-based process. Rohan, Geo, Annonymous and others have repeated this idea about evidence-based thinking and scientific method, but it is not getting through to GP, Facts and Eddie.

    Newton’s main idea has broadly stood the test of this scientific process of prediction, test, evidence, further test etc. Einstein refined the field and his big ideas have also largely stood the test of time as has Darwin’s ideas after 150 years of predictions, tests and evidence. The fossil evidence being key as evolution is such a slow process.

    Every year scientists test the prevailing ideas with experiments and new evidence. Thousands of papers are written in leading peer-review journals documenting this process and so far this process has found evolution theory as the one that makes predictions that best fits the facts. It is actually quite amazing that a theory can withstand 150 years of testing – few theories do, that is how we advance – and that is why scientists view it as a robust theory.

  137. Eddie

    Magic Man,
    Don’t need to ask fellow Evolutionists for their opinions, I can read for myself.

    Yes, you can learn about different religions in any course on Comparative Religions (Thelogy is a discipline in itself)
    However, for your informational purposes, please note that the First Amendment of the USA’s Constitution requires inter alia (among other things):
    – “that PUBLIC schools not teach one religion as superior to another religion….”

    Creation science can be taught as a concept that other people believe in, but it cannot be taught as absolute truth.

    In 1987 the Supreme court ruled that Public schools cannot teach creationism in science classes.

    T.G/MM, the problem is that general acceptance of Jehovah and creationism would bring the scientic world to its knees. It would knock down the foundational structures and inter-relationships of many of the sciences (Geology, Biology, Astronomy, Nuclear Science etc). Their general tenets would become useless and have to be abandoned.

  138. J

    Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  139. J

    “What a fricking shock these dudes are gonna get when,
    in a few years time
    the UFO cat is let out of the bag it’s been confined to, for the last half-century!!”

    Dear Geo:

    All of a sudden I am not sleepy anymore.

    Maybe I won’t be able to sleep.

    Tell me please just WHO exactly captured the UFO cat, exactly WHICH year and date (50 years ago is too imprecise) and WHERE on earth (or not on earth) they have been hiding him, and WHY have they been hiding the biggest news since newspapers (and blogs) were invented. And HOW did you find out this great piece of news even while the rest of us dwell in ignorance.

    Cheese-on-bread I read the National Enquirer all the time and this piece of news somehow slipped me.

    P.S. I am not a Jehovah’s Witness either.

  140. Magic Man

    Eddie,

    We are in agreement.

  141. Magic Man

    BFP,

    No I was only making the point that christianity is ‘relatively’ new and no I do not attach any extra validity to older ones.

    I am afraid I dont find any of them valid.

    You are quite correct, of major religions, Islam is more recent about 600-700 years after early christianity (maybe only 400 after christianity well established).

  142. Magic Man

    The newer ones do tend to heavily plagiarize the older ones.

    Christianity conveniently took jewish tanakh and called it the “old testament”

    Islam also did some plagiarising of christianity

  143. Thomas Gresham

    No, Eddie.

    In your world when you cant find 1 or 2 out of 10,000 peer review articles in the leading journals to agree with you…it is because there is a big conspiracy that involves every peer-review journal editor, every academic selection panel, every Nobel Prize committee.

    In my world view, if I cant find 1-2 out of 10,000 peer review articles in leading journals to agree with me…..I question my views.

    If creationism offered testable predictions that better fit the evidence than any other theory offering testable predictions, all scientists would be creationists. That is the scientific method. Got it yet?

    Scientists dont accept theories out of faith, its about which theory makes testable predictions that stand up to the evidence. We don’t accept gravity out of faith. We accept it because it best fits the evidence and in the process of evidence gathering over the past 300 years the theory has been refined, but the big idea has stood the test of time. Scientific method is the survivial of the fittest theory. Creationism doesn’t cut it and as a result, creationists cry conspiracy. Its pitiable and I have wasted enough time on it.

  144. J

    Indeed Thomas. Indeed.

  145. Magic Man

    I still want to know what are those ‘fake’ bones in all the museums. The bones that have fooled so many intelligent people.

    Come on Georgie, tell me what the bones are?

    Are they bones at all?

    Is it a conspiracy?

    *********************

    BFP says,

    Fake fossils in museums? Nonsense. There are, however, far fewer major fossils in museums than most folks realize. Many of the major T-Rex exhibits etc are reproductions from originals because there have been relatively few discoveries of large intact dinosaur fossils.

  146. Magic Man

    BFP,

    I did not say they were fake. Georgie did.

    I am glad you concur it is nonsense.

    I am hoping Georgie will tell us what they are, surely he must know to make such a bold claim they are fake.

  147. Rohan

    This thread shows the true lack of evidence for your superstitious being. Over and over we’ve asked for evidence. Any evidence. Provide JUST one piece of evidence from any of these FOR religion.

    1) Thomas asked for ONE peer review article

    2) I asked for one piece of evidence that christianity is any more true than islam, Zeus, Santa Claus or tooth fairies. One.

    3) One set of empirical proof that prayer works. ONE. (see my plant test above)

    4) One argument FOR religion that is not an argument against science i.e if we proved that evolution was crap today, that would do nothing to prove that christianity is true. So one set of proof..just ONE.

    5) Just One piece of evidence to show the suspension of the laws of physics. ONE.

    So go ahead, we’re still waiting. Again, the evidence can’t come from the bible, that would be circular reasoning: “The god of the bible is real, because the bible that god wrote says so”.

    So one piece of evidence.

    Just one, it can’t be that hard. Well, unless….

  148. Magic Man

    Hey Rohan, I just want to know what all of those fossils in the museums are and I cant get an answer to that.

  149. Rohan

    Magic man, good luck. Dinosaurs don’t fit with the world view of the black box that is the bible, so followers have to either

    A) Say that dinosaurs never existed (in the face of literally mountains of evidence) or

    B) Ignore the fact that dinosaurs existed

    When all it would take is 3 minutes of thinking to figure out why dinosaurs were not in the bible.

    Here’s a hint: The uneducated bronze age men that wrote the book knew nothing about dinosaurs. If the bible was the word of God wouldn’t he include dinosaurs? Come on people…

  150. Rohan

    if we measure the earth’s existence in a 24 hour period, the bible excludes 23 hours and 59.99 minutes of the earth’s known history. So here’s a quick summation of the 4,600,000,000 years of the earth’s existence condensed into a 24 hour period.

    life on earth started at 4:10 in the morning.

    Plants on earth came at 9:30 pm

    Land dwelling animals at 9:46 pm

    Reptiles at 10:13 pm

    Dinosaurs at 10:46 pm

    Mammals at 10:49 pm

    Birds at 11:14 pm

    Common ape/human ancestor: 11:57 pm

    Homo sapiens: 11: 59 and 56 seconds

    So, if we measure the earth’s existence in a 24 hour period, the bible excludes 23 hours and 59.99 minutes of the earth’s known history.

    So instead of saying that time effectively started at 1 second on that day, the bible says it started at 23 hours and 59.99 minutes of the day. Couldn’t be more WRONG if they tried.

    Believe the creation story if you like, but you only make yourself look like a joke by arguing that it bares any resemblance to reality.

  151. Eddie

    Rohan,

    We believe that God just “said it” and it was done.

    Where are the facts to prove that the earth is 4.6 billion years old?

  152. Rohan

    Eddie,
    Which God? Either way, if believing something made it true, then I believe I’m a billionaire.

    “Where are the facts to prove that the earth is 4.6 billion years old?”-

    I’m on a push to make people who could be a bit more curious do their own research. It’s a good habit. So, look it up.

  153. Thomas Gresham

    Given that the unanimous opinion of the living Nobel Laureates in the sciences, a unanimous opinion of the articles in the top ranked peer review journals is that evolution theory makes testable predictions that are supported by the evidence, the onus is up to the creationists to prove they are scientific.

    They can do this simply enough (even simpler you would have thought if you were speaking for a divine, slightly jealous being) by coming up with a single testable prediction of creationism. What does creationism predict that we can test? It predicts something about the ordering of fossils in the strata that has been proved wrong. It predicts something about the age of the Earth which contradicts the conclusions from other sciences on ageing rocks and the time light takes to travel to reach us. What else can it predict, that could be independently verified?

    The theory of gravity for example has predictions that can be independently tested be believers and non-believers alike and it is the result of those tests that leads scientists to support the idea of gravity with the refinements that observations have offered. Our refinement of the theory allowed Nasa to work out how man could reach to the moon and back. How much rocket fuel and oxygen would be required. When and where to launch. This was not done by faith.

    This debate is very similar to Galileo’s debate with religion. Religious leaders thought the earth was at the centre of the universe. Galileo thought otherwise and his theory had testable predictions about what we would see in the night sky in the future. The evidence supported Galileo and not the Church. So, go on creationists, come up with a testable prediction based on the theory of creationism that we can put to the test. Of course, don’t be too hard on yourself, your colleagues have had this opportunity, to come up with a testable proposition of creationism, every day over the past 2000 years and have failed to do so.

  154. Rohan

    Don’t forget that Galileo was charged with heresey, imprisoned, and then put under house arrest by the church until this death.All for arguing that the earth was not the center of the universe.

    So when did the church apologize for what they did to Galileo in the 1640’s?

    On 31 October 1992. Yup, 1992!!!!

    In 1992, Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and officially conceded that the Earth was not stationary, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.

    So it took 300 years for the church to conceed what had been common knowledge for hundreds of years. It’s like these people turn off their brain cells or something. If your God gave you a brain, why not use it?

    Other apologies he gave:
    1) Catholics’ involvement with the African slave trade (9 August 1993).

    2) The Church Hierarchy’s role in burnings at the stake

    3) The injustices committed against women, the violation of women’s rights and for the historical denigration of women

    4) For the sins of Catholics throughout the ages for violating “the rights of ethnic groups and peoples

    5) For the sins of the Crusader attack on Constantinople in 1204.

    That’s just a quick list of the Pope’s apologies..for folks who are under the impression that the institution of religion is somehow harmless. Even today, the catholic church is still striving to outlaw the use of condoms.

    I’ve officially lost my patience for people who can’t think for themselves. It’s one thing when you’re like 5 or 10 years old and you believe what your mother, teachers, and other authority figures tell you. But as an adult you have to wake up at some point!

  155. Thomas Gresham

    Dear Rohan,

    Well said.

  156. Tony Hall

    Rohan,
    I couldn’t agree with you more. People have to do research for themselves and stop depending on mainstream media for information. They must also stop interpreting everything the church says literally. People’s brains have become lazy.

  157. The scout

    God does not hold you or anyone else responsible for the misgivings/misdeeds of others. Sometimes we go to such levels to justify our stance on Christianity or not. I keep it simple, I meditate with my God and have developed a one on one relationship with him. I worship, adore and acclaim God as My Saviour. This is what gives me the motivation to move to a higher level.

  158. Georgie Porgie

    Well said Scout
    I have believed the Bible as long as I can remember. Unlike most who opine about it, I have actually studied it. It is my guide for faith and practice.

    I dont seek to force my beliefs on anyone. I try to share them with those who want to hear. Nor do I seek to prove that the Bible is correct or infallible. The Bible has stood the test of time and is still the worlds best seller.

    Despite the scoffing and ridicule men and women and children come to Christ all over the globe ever day.

  159. Eddie

    Yes. One should never force one’s religious beliefs on others. Jesus never did it; He spoke plainly, but never enforced His will on others.

    Whatever people’s views are on the Word of God, it has changed the lives of milllions (billions, trillions……?) over the centuries and will continue to do so long after we are gone.

    Many have tried to shut it down over the centuries, but where are they today? Yet, the Word still stands.

  160. Rohan

    I can’t knock your personal belief in God as long as you and your brothers/sisters in faith keep it to yourselves.

    GP
    Sure, the bible has stood the test of time….and so has the racism, homophobia, sexism, and slavery that the bible advocates and promotes.

    The truth is, christianity being around for so long is just a testament to how easy it is to mislead children (that’s usually when it starts).
    ———
    I’ll leave you guys with this quote:

    I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

    Peace

  161. Thomas Gresham

    Dear Rohan,

    I am flabbergasted by the irony of Eddie and GP saying that they do not hoist their religion on others. Christianity, like Islam, is a prostelysing religion that believes that non-believers are damned in some way and should be converted. What do they think the missionaries were doing? Civilising the natives? How do they think slaves were christianised? Do they think they were given a free choice about their religion?

    “Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; None but ourselves can free our minds.”

    Peace.

  162. Eddie

    TG,
    Man cannot emancipate himself from any type of slavery. He was made to worship. This is done consciously or unconsciously.
    He worships one force, or the other.

  163. Eddie

    TG,
    You, Rohan, et al, proselytize as well. When you strive to indoctrinate your secular, personal beliefs and opinions on others.
    We do it directly – You, subtly.

  164. The scout

    I know that in the final day, I have to give an account of myself. All I can do is to encourage all of you to seek the way of salvation. It is up to you to accept> I’m not even accountable for my wife or children, they are all adults and I have taught them the way to eternal life. The choice is now theirs to accept. I will continue to pray for all you unbelievers, whether you want me to or not. God Bless

  165. Thomas Gresham

    Prostelysing religions push on to people a “good book” from which people will find all of the answers to life and do not need to think for themselves. Moreover, and critically, they argue that there will be some judgement day when non-believers in this good book (not necessarily people who are bad, but just non-believers in their version of god) will go to hell. This is one of the justifications prostelysing religions have for religious wars: believers good, non-believers bad.

    I do not threaten anyone with hell. I do not offer anyone a set of beliefs that they must believe as a matter of faith. I, merely adopt an evidence-based approach to thinking. Evidence-based thinking could take people anywhere in the future, to places I do not know and could not write down in a book today. (Evidence-based thinking does not preclude loving – an important human emotion – all living things.)

    Can you see the difference between, one the one hand, a prostelysing religion, damning non-believers with hell, and on the other, an approach to life that is about thinking for yourself by using an evidence-based approach. It is the difference between Galileo and the Church that damned him.

    Let me leave you with the words of Albert Einstein. “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.” “And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.”

  166. Rohan

    The Scout,
    thanks for the prayers, but I don’t need them.

    Pray for the ~30,000 children under the age of 5 years old who are going to die a tortured death from starvation. All under the watchful eye of your loving God.

    Here’s a hint though: Whether you pray or not, those children are still going to die. Pray tomorrow, same thing. Actually get a million people to pray and they will still die.

    Now, if you actually DO something, you can make a difference. All prayer accomplishes is to make you feel good about yourself.

  167. Eddie

    Rohan,

    Who or what is you god?

  168. Rohan

    Eddie wrote:

    Rohan,

    Who or what is you god?
    ****

    The truth.

  169. Eddie

    Rohan,

    Yes, you are right. But it should be the Truth.

  170. Daniel

    Dude, That’s my youth minister!

    By the way, you’ve got two things wrong.
    He didn’t spend a MONTH in Barbados, it was a WEEK, and number two is that he lives in CLAYTON, Al, not Eufaula. But besides that you have your facts right.