Want To Reduce The Cost Of Barbados Chicken? Ban The Addition Of Water…

Robert Lucas Takes On The B-B-BockBados Chicken Cartel!

Dear Sir/Madam, The Editor

Listening to the Prime Minister’s address yesterday, pertaining to the cost of chicken, I was under the impression that, when he referred to the Barbados Agricultural Development Marketing Corporation’s (BADMC) importation of chicken, it meant whole chicken. I was disabused of this impression on reading (The Barbados Advocate) newspaper of the 27th, May 2008 (where) it was revealed that, chicken wings were the item alluded to.

The importation of chicken wings is not a new feature. This was allowed in the past, but was suspended as a result of lobbying on the part of the Barbados Egg and Poultry Producers (BEPP) under the aegis of the last minister of agriculture.

I can only speak for myself. I have a problem with a minority of the population holding the country up for ransom.

The position is always that, the industry provides jobs and what will happen if importation of whole-chicken is allowed. One has the ridiculous situation where a chicken costs more than twenty-dollars. What is going to happen, when the price of oil reaches US $ 200.00 per barrel? At some point, protectionism of this industry must stop. This has to happen if the cost of living in this country is to come down.

Removing the price control on whole chicken is only going to result in an increase in the costs to the consumer. The Prime Minister has stated that the importation of wings is primarily aimed at buttressing the lower level of society against the rapid rise in the cost of living. Since we are all Barbadians, should not all of us be buttressed?

The Prime Minister should also be insisting that the addition of water to poultry be banned, if he wants there to be an immediate reduction in the cost of living. This causes me to pose the question of who does Mr. James Paul represents? Does he represent his constituents or the Barbados agricultural Society (BAS)? At some point, the concerns of his constituents and those of the BAS must diverge. Who is he going to side with?

In the past, I have on numerous occasions, in your newspaper, stated my position vis-à-vis the local poultry industry. I am opposed to the industry as it is currently structured. I have stated that, the industry is an artificial one and that, the only local inputs are labour, water and some cement, the latter being used to make the foundation of the pens . I have also stated that, the local feed plant is actually a cartel, since the major owners of it are also involved in poultry rearing (either solely or by means of a form of share-cropping), slaughtering and distribution. The local feed plant can sell its product at whatever price it wants. One of my main points of contention against the local poultry industry and by extension the feed plant is the fact that, no effort has been made locally to develop rations for the industry.

Sincerely

Robert D. Lucas, PH.D.
Food Bio-technologist.

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50 Comments

Filed under Barbados, Business

50 responses to “Want To Reduce The Cost Of Barbados Chicken? Ban The Addition Of Water…

  1. ROBOT

    hey doc !

    how or where are you employed
    i have listened to you on the call-in shows for donkey years and i have always enjoyed your contributions.

    i was wondering where you were located

    anyhow
    cheers man !

  2. Observer

    Dr. Lucas,

    No disrespect intended, but it would be helpful if you could get your message over using less words.
    Your article looks good, but I didn’t take time to read it because of the plethora of words.
    One experienced speaker quoted that as he aged, he was learning to “say more, in less time”.

  3. S

    I take issue with the fact that you question the buttressing of the lower level of society against price increases.

    Not everyone gets the same wage. Some will cope better with price increases better than others. So this section of the society needs more help than others.

    Interesting article nonetheless with some very salient points

  4. BAFBFP

    Did I not hear about a plan by Andrew Bynoe to start importing feed to compete with Roberts?

  5. I listened to the Prime Minister yesterday and could not help but think what a wonderful thinker we have as our Prime Minister.

    Shortly before this Press Conference we were told by the Chicken Farmers that if they did not get a price increase or a removal of the price controls they may not have had chicken on the supermarket shelves in a couple of weeks.

    I as a Barbadian have real concerns when someone that should know better and be more mature can attempt to hold this country up to ransom by threating to withhold supplies of chicken from our people because they want a price control removed, they should be viewed as dangerous to the national security and sent from whence they came.

    Well true to form our brilliant Prime Minister listened to their request and did exactly as they requested that is he removed all price controls on the product.

    However he also realised that is doing so it may mean an unusal inflation in the price our consumers would be asked to pay over the counter for their much loved chicken, so in an effort to provide some balance and an independent body and source he opted to release to the market 10 % of the yearly capacity to be sourced by the BADMC for our people to have chicken at fair prices my understanding is that chicken out of the US will be much cheaper that what is locally produced and sold here, so it is with this in mind that the Prime Minister opened up the market so as not to have a runaway price increase situation taking place.

    To me this was a shot of a master class batsman ( sorry Brian Lara you are a class act to ) but the Prime Minister stroked this ball to the boundary with the ultimate of ease, poise, control, timing and placement actually he should be awarded 10 runs for this one fantastic master stroke.

  6. Jerome Hinds

    Well said Wishing in Vain !

    Our Government is really making the difference we needed.

  7. Tell me Why

    I listen to the Prime Minister and he was adamant that he don’t need anyone to speak on behalf of him or his administration and I think that he is speaking about people of your ilk who continue to write partisan excuses for the party without his knowledge.

    Now to the problem at hand. This scenario with diesel reduction is a joke. How on earth within a month you move diesel price from $1.46 to $2.57 and down to $2.15 per litre. In true and in fact, the position is diesel increase from $1.46 to $2.15 or 69 cents increase within one month. This is the same behaviour you get when stores have Sales. The price is increased prior to the sale and then reduce to fool the customer.

  8. Thank you Jerome, I will take my licks when they are deserving but when we are right and doing things well and in the name of the people that Gov’t has been put there to serve I will say so to.

  9. It would not take a lot of effort to fool you TMW.
    Simple and plain, when you had it to deal with you shirked from the reality, face it now.

  10. Tell me Why

    Our Government is really making the difference we needed.
    ………………………………………………………………………………….
    Who is WE, certainly not the consumers including me. Let the consumers sing your praises first.

    Did you read the praises in the space above.

  11. Tell me Why

    To me this was a shot of a master class batsman ( sorry Brian Lara you are a class act to ) but the Prime Minister stroked this ball to the boundary with the ultimate of ease, poise, control, timing and placement actually he should be awarded 10 runs for this one fantastic master stroke.
    …………………………………………………………………………………..
    Thanks, he really hit us for six after all the talk about Cost of Living, Cost of Living and Cost of Living.

  12. Tell me Why

    By removing ‘price control’ on chicken will only open a can of worms with retailers jacking up prices nilly willy. What should have done to assist consumers is the removal of vat on the commodity at the point of sale……that is the supermarket. By giving BADMC the right to import chicken without putting structures in place will do nothing for the consumers. Who will benefit…..maybe politicians and friends, but surely not the consumer especially the vulnerable.

    So WIV and Jerome what you have to say.

  13. rumboy

    What we the consumer needs to do is simply STOP buying chicken. Had an interesting discussion with an insider regarding chicken. Montrose sells more than 75% of chicken consumed in the island. They grow the bird through a subsidary then in turn slaughter and sell to themselves at a profit. It is then readied for market, whole and in part, sold to the retailer at another profit. We know the rest from there. By removing the control, they will now control at what price it goes to the retailer and hence on to us. Trust me, the price of chicken will rise tremendously in the coming weeks. All we can do is to STOP buying chicken and we can if we want to until they are forced to reduce. Three individual share holders own more than 50% and BST the remainder.

  14. AFBFP

    rumboy
    Your rum mekin’ mo sense than mine., but I try de red meat fa pne week and now I ogt gout in my lef’ toe’

  15. veggiegirl

    I agree that maybe we should just stop purchasing chicken.. only problem with that is, my children eat it more than anything else. I already have a problem going to the grocery to purchase pork or beef.. my hand is going to seriously quiver over the chicken next time I visit the grocery.

    and goodness knows what a snack box at chefette gonna cost now…

  16. rumboy

    Veggiegirl –
    Let them try fish instead. A lot more healthy for them anyway and don’t buy it from the supermarket, try the fish market instead. They will fillet it for you and it is a lot less expensive. Cheap and healthy – you can’t lose.

  17. Pat

    Let me understand this – Thompson is going to import chicken wings for the poor people who cant affort whole chickens when the prices inevitably go up.

    Why does he and his ministers think the poor people of Barbados need to eat chicken skin and fat, attached to a few bones? Why cant all Bajan chicken lovers eat good breast meat or legs? Then one wonders why there is so much obesity, high cholesterol and its impending heart desease on the island.

  18. veggiegirl

    Rumboy – I have an almost constant supply of fish – Dolphin and flying fish mostly – during the fishing season. so this isn’t a problem, but they prefer chicken more times than not.

    Pat – Bajans totally love their chicken wings (I’m one as well). and since there are only 2 per whole bird, well they just have to import them.

    My problem with the whole thing is that Barbados is a country of chicken eaters.. totally.. I can see in the next few days chicken going up.. way up, but the way people do things ’bout here, it will stay up and not ever come down.

  19. J

    Ladies pull out your last grocery bill. Did you buy $20 of chicken last time? then just buy $20 next time. If is is a smaller quantity just give your family members less on the their plates. Most of us eat too much meat anyhow. In other words do not give the chicken merchants one cent more. Your busines is to watch your own budget. Let the chicken merchants get by however they can.

  20. Georgie Porgie

    Pat is absolutely correct .
    Importing chicken wings is importing an unhealthy lifestyle for our people. Chicken wings is indeed skin and fat, attached to a few bones, and likely to lead to obesity, high cholesterol levels and heart disease in our people.

  21. 41

    To be clear…

    We live on an island. This island is in the middle of an ocean. This ocean is populated by fish which require no feed.

    And yet we are conserned about the availabilty of the wings of a flightless waterfoul???

    God should strike us down with malise!

  22. Before running off and dispersing nonsense and half truths, why would you believe that the Gov’t will only import chicken wings that is utter crap the Gov’t can import any part of the chicken or whole chicken that it requires unrestricted so lets us move on from that point that the facility will only allow the importation of wings there is no where it says so nowhere.
    TMW if you had written something worthy of a reply I would have granted you a reply but your utter nonsense is not worthy of a response, try again , with sense this time please.

  23. Devil in the Details

    Can someone tell me how the PSVs are going to get diesel at the cheaper price? The pumps are calibrated using the higher price so will the station attendants have to do some calculations each time a PSV comes along? The Gov’t is going to have to watch this closely as the potential for reselling diesel may be great.

    Sorry to say this but it is unlikely that chicken can be grown and processed in Barbados at a lower cost than that in the US. The Gov’t sincerely wants to lower the cost of living but this will only be achieved at the expense of the present local producers. I predict that in 5 years all of our chicken will be imported.

  24. Fair Play

    Tell me why
    What is so hard for you to understand that Barbados is a small developing country surviving on borrowed capital? Tonight on the news the truckers in England drove their trucks down to London to protest the rise in price of diesel. Here is a quote from the BBC “Organisers said fuel for a typical articulated lorry now costs up to £1,000 per week.”That is Great Britain, a developed country with resources. Get real and start to use the free education provided by this country to educate the people that we cannot continue to live with this champaign taste and only have mauby pockets. Stop the complaining about things you know we have no control over and use your energies to criticize the government on the enactment of the integrity legislation that was promised.

  25. liz

    The cost of chicken at Chefette is not relevant – it is cheaper to eat at home.

  26. veggiegirl

    actually the cost of Chefette is relevant.. Yes I’m aware I can cook chicken at home cheaper, but sometimes we don’t cook and get “fast food”… That bag of predone chicken at Pricesmart and SuperCentre is going to go up.. it’s an easier alternative when you have 3 children doing all sorts of aftershool activities and you work as well. Would you like me to do the proper Bajan thing and awake at 3am just to cook my evening meal, before heading out for the day..

    Re the 20.00 chicken.. My hubby commented the other day that we used to by 20.00 chickens.. now we can’t find them and get 12-15.00 chickens.. and they just about last 1 meal for 5 of us. These are small birds in the grand scheme of things. So yes.. it is very possible in the next week I’ll be purchasing a 20.00 chicken, but it will be the same size as the 15.00 one was last week.

    and yes it’s more than chicken wings.. and yes we have an abundance of fish in the sea.. but there are also people who are highly allergic to seafood, what would you have them eat.. if they want to eat meat.

  27. rumboy

    WIV –
    I agree. At no time did I hear the PM mention wings, he said chicken. I believe that because previously only wings were imported we are surmising that this will happen again. No, I am certain that whole chicken will be imported and distributed to all major retailers to ensure that the Montrose Four keep their profits low and are not allowed to gouge us.

  28. ROBOT

    this prime minister will make erskine sandiford look like sir winston churchill

  29. Hants

    Very logical Fair Play.

    I live in Canada where the price of Gas has been rising daily since January.

    Food prices have been rising and there is even a shortage of rice.To be fair we have a lot of variety of food so we can’t complain.

    It is remarkable that the Government of little tiny Barbados is proactive in dealing with the cost of living while the Canadian Government is focused on a Minister and his ex Biker chick Girlfriend.At least he resigned yesterday so end of story.

    Bajans can do like me and drive less,turn off lights when not needed, and generally curb personal spending until this recession ends.

    The worse is yet to come but we will survive.

    I am always amused when North America is in recession and Bajans expect that they should not be affected. People up here losing Homes and Jobs and little tiny Barbados is supposed to be Utopia.

  30. Tony Hall

    Hants,
    I agree with you. Barbadians have to change their living and eating habits. We in North America have had to change our habits because the cost of food and gas goes up daily. Barbadians have had over the years a sense of false security. If the cost of chicken is going to be increased by the producers simply buy less. Eat fish, can foods, etc. Are we too great for that? I come home on evenings here in New York and sometimes I eat corned beef, sardines or mackarel. That does not mean I don’t have meat in my freezer. I have cut down on my lighting in the house and the perimeter. I have decided to use my smaller car and take the bus, transit or walk when necessary. Gas in Barbados is approx. $11.00 BDS per gallon and might stay steady for the next few months. Gas in New York is $4.15 US per gall, equiv. $8.30 BDS per gallon, increasing daily, and the economy is getting worse. Barbadians have to stop with this fast food mentality and leave the items on the supermarket shelves when they are too expensive. They must get away from that mindset,” wha yuh gine do, yuh cant eat de money”. PERSONAL SACRIFICE IS THE KEY.

  31. Pat

    Hants and Tony:

    Well said. I buy all my dry goods on sale and have a pantry in my house with rice, pasta, beans, flour, meal, etc. to last at least a year. I can my own tamato sauce, stewed tomatoes, dill and bread and butter pickles, jams, fruit butter and other preserves. I make my own basalmic vinegar. I also make my herbed olive oils. I also buy canned salmon on sale and of course my sardines. Every two weeks I go to Chinatown and stock up on fresh fish.

    When I feel like sending a care box home to an aunt or cousin, I can fill it up from my basement without going to the store.

    I never take my car downtown. If I have an appointment or have to go to the periodontist, etc., I park at the shopping centre and bus it. I save gas and the cost of parking. I have all energy saving bulbs in my house and the guard lights outside are motion controlled. We have only one tv. and I do most of my baking, roasting, etc. in a toaster oven.

    I have an outdoor clothes line and today I did four loads. It is the warmest day we have had in two weeks.

    This year I have planted half of my garden with potatoes. Dry herbs are expensive here so I always plant them in abundance. I am also spraying my apple trees this year. Forget the environment, I need apples for pies to freeze and preserves to can. Last year they were all bugs/worms as we thought we were helping the enviro. by not spraying and got no apples that were edible.

    I never buy chicken wings as I skin all my chicken before cooking and I would only be wasting my money. I never buy carry-out fast food. If we eat out, we go to dining rooms where we eat something worth paying for. We never, never buy fried chicken.
    I never eat hot dogs or other near meats, neither do we buy cold cuts. In Barbados I went to chefette and had a vegetarian roti. It was very filling and I could not finish it. But it was tasty.

    I have been living like this for more than 25 years and will find it hard to change now. It has become a lifestyle. If shove comes to push, I am sure I could still tighten my belt a notch or two.

  32. Rumplestilskin

    Robot says ”this prime minister will make erskine sandiford look like sir winston churchill”

    Yes, looks and perceptions are funny things.

    The reality is that PM Thompson has been left with a well that has been sucked dry before a drought.

    As I and others said two years ago on this site BEFORE Barbados committed finally to the huge debt levels, that we could not afford it and that it was then time for constraint.

    But no, the then administration went full steam ahead and we are now left with a truckload of debt in the midst of recession.

    PM Thompson would have to be Merlin himself to sail through this one without some level of difficulty.

    Perceptions vs reality…funny things.

  33. liz

    You do what you have to do – if you cannot afford “fast food” you cook at home

  34. 104

    Ah ! I remmember on a GIS show sometime in the 80’s or 90’s that Barbadians consumed over six Million Chickens per year… that is a lot of fowl, and a lot of business for the poultry producers to lose if the market is fully opened. Also, the Feed producers will lose if their market is opened… but reality now stands as the Bajan Public is paying a very high price to protect these 2 industries.
    My concern is: How many JOBS are we really protecting by keeping these 2 groups of suppliers in business and what sort of overall profit margins do they enjoy.
    If we stop buying Chicken… then we will have to buy Fish, Beef, Lamb or Pork… and these prices will go up as demand increases.
    If demand for Fish forces the fisher folk to over fish… then Fish stocks will be depleated.. and we will have to feed them in Fish Farms.

  35. Tell me Why

    Before running off and dispersing nonsense and half truths, why would you believe that the Gov’t will only import chicken wings that is utter crap ………………………………………………………………………..
    TMW if you had written something worthy of a reply I would have granted you a reply but your utter nonsense is not worthy of a response
    ………………………………………………………………………………….
    WIV, Where in my article did you see me quoting about chicken wings. My statement was always about “Chicken” so in future read before writing political garbage.

    Secondly, you fail to respond to commenters including me regarding pertinent questions.

    *************

    BFP says,

    WIV is taking a few days off until he decides whether he will obey the blog rules.

  36. Tell me Why

    Get real and start to use the free education provided by this country to educate the people that we cannot continue to live with this champaign taste and only have mauby pockets.
    ………………………………………………………………………………….
    I cannot see any fairness in your play. To be successful you must think big and automatically your rewards will be higher. I don’t know if your live on this rock, but the majority of entrepreneurs are owners of trucks, bobcats, back hoes, yet these people were not included in the reduction. These people took the risk to move away from mauby pockets and make a business gamble which was prudent at the time to invest in what you now call ‘champagne taste’. I am telling you, these people should have received the same reduction as the farmers, fishermen and minibuses etc.

    I will not use ‘free education’ to fool my people.

  37. Tell me Why

    Hi Hants and Tony, I agree wholeheartedly with you on certain points but I am amazed with Pat’s theory. Barbadians are unable to live like you by stock piling groceries in a pantry that can last for a year. We barely have the funds to stock our cupboards to last for the week unless we have politician families or involved in contraband items.

  38. J

    Pat we cannot stockpile for a year because in this warm climate weavils are a real problem. We have to refrigerate our rice, flour etc if we expect to keep them for more than a month or two. Our houses are warm, not airconditioned, and refrigerated space is very expensive. Energy here comes from imported oil, we do not have the blessing of Niagara Falls or huge uranium deposits for energy. I rarely buy more than a kilo of flour, rice, cornmeal, or peas or beans at any one time. No point buying it and them throwing it out because of weavils.

  39. That’s how our country rolls! The bigger you are, the more protection you get. All this talk about creating level playing fields is only pure talk.

  40. liz

    Will someone tell me – How do you regulate the sale of the cheaper diesel and prevent friends from selling to friends?
    They beat the system before they will beat it again.

  41. Gort

    Tell me why, Mia? Why did you put the price control higher on chicken in November 2007 than was the effective price? Do Barbadians realise that was to facilitate the “Chickmont cheque” in support of an event in January 2008?

    Robot, did you see the recent Kenetics opinion poll (of 888 Barbadians) result? Mia: 82% say no to her as PM. 60% say good deputy and 54% say good opposition leader but… not fit to be leader.

    Tell Me Why, Mia?

    But keep trying…

  42. Hants

    Tell me why and J, I do not stockpile because we can still buy food cheaply in Toronto.

    In Barbados if things get difficult, you can buy vegetables in smaller quantities from Hawkers and buy fish directly from fishermen.

    Scatter some pumpkin seeds in your backyard and in a few months you will get pumpkins.Passion fruit vines grow like crazy.

    I have confidence that Bajans can deal with this recession.The old people will guide you.

    Fresh tumeric,onion and butter (margerine) sauce with plain rice. Cheap and sweet.

    Uh mekking muh self hungry.

  43. Anyone baking chicken in an electric stove would be amaze at the amount of water that is left behind. Not with a gas oven. Everything is absorded in a gas oven which in reality make electric baking more healthier.

    As for america chicken there have more hormones and others in them than local chicken [if any]. So I will take my chances with bajan chicken even if the price does up.

    As for rice J what brand are you buying that you have to refridgerate to prevent weevils from appearing? That goes for peas also.

    The most we can do though is stock up on can stuff, change our eating habits, cut down on some [if not all] of our brand name food and go back to the good ole days of shopping around instead of shopping in one place for convenience.

    I agree with you Tony Hall. I hate to hear that saying. That mentality is what have bajans living above their means and now have them bitching just to make adjustments for their long term survival.
    That mentality also enable them powerless to be proactive where consumer rights are concern.

  44. The people must be first not politricks

    There is one reality that is presenting it self in light of this crisis and that is…BARBADIANS MUST BRACE THEMSELVES FOR THE STORM OF HIGHER PRICES….Blaming, claiming, naming and shaming, will not change the economic crisis currently affecting the world. This is a time to pool our resources together and show greater unity where there probably was not any before. Being divided over frivolous issues will not change anything.

    *****************

    BFP says,

    How we wish we had never heard of Cricket World Cup. What in the end, did it cost us? Half a billion in borrowed money that we will be paying interest on for the rest of our lives and our children’s lives?

    We could have had a new hospital. Water for everyone. An incinerator. A new garbage transfer station. A light rail train instead of more roads and more cars.

    We will be paying for Arthur and Mottley’s follies for the next 20 years.

  45. Jack Bowman

    I’ve followed this thread with interest. Perhaps I’m missing something. Perhaps someone on the thread can enlighten me. I am not being facetious. All my questions are entirely serious.

    First, why should poor people in Barbados (or, indeed, anyone in Barbados) have to pay artificial prices for chicken? The price of chicken on Barbados is artificial. It is fictitious.

    Second, if there were a free market in chicken on Barbados, the price of chicken would drop like a stone.

    Third, why isn’t there a free market for chicken in Barbados?

    Fourth, the people directly employed in poultry business in this country are a miniscule percentage of the country’s total population.

    Fifth, why should the overwhelming majority of Bajans who are not involved in the poultry business have to pay insanely inflated and artificial prices for chicken?

    Sixth, if “all” the Barbadian producers of chicken gassed their fowl tomorrow, and the country had to import much cheaper chicken, how many Bajans would be negatively affected? How many would be positively affected?

  46. ROBOT

    Rumplestilskin

    Yes, looks and perceptions are funny things.

    The reality is that PM Thompson has been left with a well that has been sucked dry before a drought.
    ——————————————————–
    i do not see it

    this economy has always been a challenge.
    face the music man and stop looking for excuses
    how long will you say this stuff

    put brian lara on a bad wicket and he will make runs

    put another batsman on the same wicket he will score 1 run if he gets off the mark and then make excuses

  47. Pat

    Tell me Why
    May 29, 2008 at 3:10 am

    Hi Hants and Tony, I agree wholeheartedly with you on certain points but I am amazed with Pat’s theory. Barbadians are unable to live like you by stock piling groceries in a pantry that can last for a year. We barely have the funds to stock our cupboards to last for the week unless we have politician families or involved in contraband items.

    J
    May 29, 2008 at 4:05 am

    Pat we cannot stockpile for a year because in this warm climate weavils are a real problem. We have to refrigerate our rice, flour etc if we expect to keep them for more than a month or two. Our houses are warm, not airconditioned, and refrigerated space is very expensive. Energy here comes from imported oil, we do not have the blessing of Niagara Falls or huge uranium deposits for energy. I rarely buy more than a kilo of flour, rice, cornmeal, or peas or beans at any one time. No point buying it and them throwing it out because of weavils.

    *************************

    Sorry guys. I forgot you dont have basements with ‘cold rooms’ down there.

    I know the situation re cost of food though. That is why I ship packages to relatives rather than sending money. I am scared they would spend my coppers on designers clothes, Nike shoes, or Kentucky fried chicken.

    I share your pain.

  48. dog-bite-yah

    Forget the chicken if u cant afford it, start hunting monkeys. We have too many monkeys on this island destroying crops. Monkey meat is full of protein plus you can sell every tail to the Ministry of Agriculture. Monkeys eat your crops so u eat the monkeys. put Roberts feed factory out of business.

  49. liz

    Hants you give good advice “the old people will guide you”
    They have been there – they have done that and they raised the children/grandchildren who now run this country.
    Learn from them.

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