Mother’s Day – Why The Culture War With Muslim Fundamentalism Will Last A Hundred Years

Rand Abdel-Qader, 17 years old, butchered by father and brothers for “honour”.

It Is Not About Iraq, Afghanistan Or Even Israeli-Arab Wars – The Conflict Runs Much Deeper Than Mere Territorial Issues

We often hear the idea that at our most basic selves, people around the world are the same because “everybody wants the same thing for themselves and their family”.

What a lie that is. Some cultures are at their very heart so different that there cannot be a meeting of the minds or genuine compromise. We can be aware of other cultures, but we cannot in good conscience possibly accept or validate all other cultures with our polite, politically correct silence.

On this Mother’s Day, think about women in some other cultures who are oppressed and considered little more than chattel. Read about yet another young Muslim girl murdered by her family for “honour”.

But remember this unless you wish to deceive yourself: this is not an “isolated incident” or a father gone mad. This is a common and accepted behaviour in the culture. Indeed, murder of women who violate the simplest of rules is not only accepted in the culture – it is expected of any man who is a true man.

‘My daughter deserved to die for falling in love’

For Abdel-Qader Ali there is only one regret: that he did not kill his daughter at birth. ‘If I had realised then what she would become, I would have killed her the instant her mother delivered her,’ he said with no trace of remorse.

Two weeks after The Observer revealed the shocking story of Rand Abdel-Qader, 17, murdered because of her infatuation with a British solider in Basra, southern Iraq, her father is defiant. Sitting in the front garden of his well-kept home in the city’s Al-Fursi district, he remains a free man, despite having stamped on, suffocated and then stabbed his student daughter to death.

Abdel-Qader, 46, a government employee, was initially arrested but released after two hours. Astonishingly, he said, police congratulated him on what he had done. ‘They are men and know what honour is,’ he said.

Rand, who was studying English at Basra University, was deemed to have brought shame on her family after becoming infatuated with a British soldier, 22, known only as Paul.

She died a virgin, according to her closest friend Zeinab. Indeed, her ‘relationship’ with Paul, which began when she worked as a volunteer helping displaced families and he was distributing water, appears to have consisted of snatched conversations over less than four months. But the young, impressionable Rand fell in love with him, confiding her feelings and daydreams to Zeinab, 19.

It was her first youthful infatuation and it would be her last. She died on 16 March after her father discovered she had been seen in public talking to Paul, considered to be the enemy, the invader and a Christian. Though her horrified mother, Leila Hussein, called Rand’s two brothers, Hassan, 23, and Haydar, 21, to restrain Abdel-Qader as he choked her with his foot on her throat, they joined in. Her shrouded corpse was then tossed into a makeshift grave without ceremony as her uncles spat on it in disgust.

‘Death was the least she deserved,’ said Abdel-Qader. ‘I don’t regret it. I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,’ he said…

… continue reading this story at The Guardian (link here)

Further Reading

Daily Mirror – Iraq Girl Murdered By Dad For Loving A Brit Squaddie

Independent – Girl, 17, Killed In Iraq For Loving A British Soldier

Independent – Iraqi Girl Murdered By Family For Having Unknown Number On Cell Phone

Daily Mail – Teenage Iraqi Girl Who Fell In Love With British Soldier In Basra Is Murdered By Her Own Father In Honour Killing

84 Comments

Filed under Barbados, Crime & Law, Culture & Race Issues, Human Rights, Religion, Slavery

84 responses to “Mother’s Day – Why The Culture War With Muslim Fundamentalism Will Last A Hundred Years

  1. reality check

    Many Muslim fundamentalists may have a different set of beliefs that are not acceptable in most first world countries, but what about a society that

    1) pretends to have a Rule of Law which is really a Rule of the Jungle exercised by the Old Boys Club, Lodge and party ties at the expense of everyone else. When will the CJ and DPP be asked to resign?

    2) treats land planning and future green space and the environment with disdain in favour of the highest bidder.

    3) victimizes those that do not follow the party line or questions the rationale behind bad or no policy decisions.

    4) favours those who are part of the network rather than executing daily decisions based on fundamental principles of right and wrong and ITAL.

    5) ignores common sense decisions based on short term political expediency versus long term needs.

  2. liz

    reality check
    the above are just a little bit different from stamping on your daughters throat until she dies – because she talked to a Christian man – don’t you think?

  3. Banned Again From VOB

    Here you go again drawing on isolated incidences to Bash foreign non-Western cultures. The value of the US dollar is plummeting with respect to every commodity and mineral imaginable taking a heap of other currencies with it and causing world wide starvation. Target the true criminals.

    When French women were found guilty of sleeping with the occupying German force, they were not dealt with any differently. Oh give it a break partisan…

    ************

    BFP says,

    Isolated incident? Surely you have not done any research at all on this subject. Hundreds of women were murdered in the Basra area alone in the last year. Thousands worldwide – and if we include Indian “cooking accidents” involving bride payments we don’t have enough space to list all the names and incidents.

    Surely you jest about the oppression of women under Islam as being “isolated incidents” ?

  4. Bimbro

    Thank goodness for perceptive people like BFP. May they soon become the govt. of this country!

    However, let’s not deceive ourselves that Muslims are the only ones to whom this applies, [whose moral and ethical standards are so anathema to our own] it also does to some of our own race! More anon!

  5. Banned Again From VOB

    Bimbro are you paid by BFP, or is ‘kissing up’ a genetic disorder ?

  6. Centipede

    Just as some Muslim dominated countries will not allow the Christian Religion to exist in their land, it’s time ‘politicians’ take the same position in Christian countries and close down the Muslim Religion in their land.

    It’s that simple.

  7. Banned Again From VOB

    Centipede
    I think foolish comments should not be published. What say you?

  8. Sorry

    Can’t agree with you Banned Again From VOB, I think Centipede is 100% right. We are living a clash of cultures (as this world gets smaller) but we have our own and should not let it get diluted. We in the West have to stand up for what we believe in. I just don’t understand BA cutting beef out of their menu so they don’t offend muslins (as reported yesterday).

    That’s just ridiculous!!!

  9. Banned Again From VOB

    Sorry Sorry,
    I am neither Christian nor Muslim.. but I was born on this side of the divide so I must be Western too. Exactly where is it that Western and Christian are interchangeable? I think the two of you have some ego issues to sort through… with respect.

  10. Duppy Lizard

    What an extremely sad tale. The sooner we dispense of ALL religions the sooner the better. I think it’s time we devise some other method, other than religion, to help people endure life.

  11. 106

    Why is it that some Muslim men place so much value on the honour of their women? Where is their own self earned honour? Is it that they have no honour of their own to defend?
    My own theory is that sadly, women, in these societies are valued much the same as goats and cattle. It is a measure of a man’s worth to own livestock. This sort of mentality is in the dark ages and until a woman has value as an intelligent human being equal to those of men in Muslim society, this sort of thing will continue.
    Until Islam brings itself into the 21st century, I will never have respect for it as a religion.

  12. PiedPiper

    Instead of resorting to name calling, Banned, defend your position and prove that mine is wrong.

  13. PiedPiper

    In nearly all underdeveloped Muslim countries, women are little more than “property”, chattel. They do not vote, work, attend school or drive cars. They are not allowed to venture out anywhere whithout express permission and only with a male (family member) escort. Do I think this is wrong?….hell yes!
    How does this make me a bigot Banned?

  14. Technician

    Until Islam brings itself into the 21st century, I will never have respect for it as a religion.
    —————————————————————————–
    The Catholic Church, do not believe having sex with young boys as actually having sex…..is this 21st century thinking also?

    Duppy Lizard is right…….The sooner we dispense of ALL religions the sooner the better. I think it’s time we devise some other method, other than religion, to help people endure life.

  15. reality check

    “the above are just a little bit different from stamping on your daughters throat until she dies – because she talked to a Christian man – don’t you think?”

    agreed—I will never forget the photo of the woman being shot in the head in the stadium in Kabul by the Taliban for alleged adultery. Women are worthless and not revered in many Arab countries with partial exceptions like Dubai and Turkey. The fundamentalist sects of the Wahadi’s and others are run by extremely myopic and ignorant imams who savage the basic rights of all women and keep them suppressed.

    Neverthelss, fundamental principles of wrongdong by our society should always be challenged and changed otherwise the degree of abuse simply heightens

    this is a question of degree not principle

    we should never judge others without being fully prepared to criticize and reform ourselves from our own abuses.

  16. Amused

    exactly which religions are living in the 21st century?

    enlighten me.

    A 21st century religion, almost an oxymoron.

    LOL

  17. Amused

    Ironically, Islam one of the more recent, seems to be the most backward

  18. J

    Dear Banned Again from VOB.
    Yes indeedy, cats do make better companions that many, many men.

  19. J

    Now remember everybody, the man in Austria who kept his daughter and and incestous grandchildren imprisoned for 25 years. Austria is a Christian Western country ain’t it?

    They got ignorant men all over the world.

    Ignorant men are in all religions.

    Ignorant Christian men, ignorant Muslim men, ignorant Rasta men, ignorant Hindu men, ignorant Atheists, ignorant Animists. Unfortunately Islam does not have a monopoly on ignorant men.

  20. cheesecutter

    It’s good that the word ‘underdeveloped ‘ is used here. I wonder how come after all these years these muslim countries are still the same. I feel i have to blame the west(esp. usa). They support / put up puppets who keep all the oil profits for themselves, then cause them to spend more money on arms (guess who sells them)to “protect” themselves from another muslim neighbor……. and i could go on and on……..
    This story says it all……some arab(who probrably was never educated secularly or islamically ) in Iraq decides to take matters of his daughter’s “dishonor “in his own hands.
    It is in the best interest of the west to keep the muslim countries underdeveloped and illiterate , because the day they do become progressive they will have the west and its so-called “civilization” on its knees.

    Let me categorically state that i abhor such behavior but i feel that Bfp takes this subject a little too far……always muslim bashing. A glaring example is cited below………
    “Thousands worldwide – and if we include Indian “cooking accidents” involving bride payments we don’t have enough space to list all the names and incidents.”
    Educate yourself BFP, this subject has nothing to do with muslims.It is about Hindus and the exorbitant dowry they(husbands) demand from the bride’s family.If payment is not made they are “gotten rid of ” in theses “accidents”. But i guess from your lack of knowledge you seem to equate all indians as muslims. Another feather in your cap for ass-in-nin-ity.

    BFP are real cowards though. Over the last couple of weeks Christians were found(allegedly) having sex and fathering numerous offspring in some polygomous boohaa, and then another Christian was found to be not only having sex,but fathering about 7 children from his DAUGHTER whom he kept locked up.Just letting this blog public know because BFP would never let those stories see the light of day on this blog.
    And they had to wait like 4 months to wetten our appetite with another Muslim story that never even made it to the regular press.

    *****************

    BFP says,

    Cheesecutter, we are well aware that Hindus and cooking fires are synonymous and that is why we said “some other cultures” as in “plural”. We are also aware of seti and other such traditions.

    All are oppressive to women. Might as well throw in BET as well – as they have done more to oppress women than any other North American institution I can think of in the last 20 years.

    And what you call “Muslim bashing” is merely reporting how their culture sees things and acts. If that is “bashing”, well, that’s your opinion.

  21. J

    Re the article from the Independent of April 28th, “Barbaric ‘honour’ killings…Please note that D’ua Khalil Aswad was killed for falling in love with a Muslim. D’ua and her family are NOT Muslims. They are Yazidi’s and that is why she was killed by her Yazidi family who regarded marriage to a Muslim as an abomination. Yazidism is a syncresis of Animism, early Christianity and Islam. Islam doesn not accept that syncresis occurs (although it occurs all the time). Muslims therefore regard Yazidi’s as apostates.
    Actually the practice of ‘honor killings’ predates Islam. Today it is practised by people who also profess Islam, but it is NOT an exclusively Islamic practice. In fact it may be properly Islamic at all. Many, many people mis-understand their own religion.

  22. J

    Dear Banned from VOB
    I have not just 1, but 2 very very nice cats, and a wonderful partner in life. I am not accepting any new applications (for cats nor partners) at this time. Best wishes. J.

  23. J

    Ok, this whole thing about honor killings comes from men’s attempts to control women. Men will never succeed. Women have been deceiving men for more than 200,000 years and it will continue. If men know the truth a good number of them tend to resort to violence so women have learned not to tell men the truth but to tell them whatever lie they will believe. That’s the truth.
    If the truth would get you killed, and a lie would let you retain your place as an honorable wife or daughter, which would you choose?

  24. J

    Middle Eastern cultures, Muslim, Jewish, Christian and Yazidi have long practiced in-marriage, that is, where the best spouse is felt to be a first cousin, often on the father’s side. Fast forward 20 or 50 or 10o generations in which first cousin marriage has long been practiced. You understand that many, many “unrelated” people in those societies test identically when DNA tests are done. Therefore if a man is horned he may never be able to discover it even if DNA tests are done. You understand now why those fellows in the Middle East live in a permanent state of anxiety? If we could get themt o practice out marriage like we do it would reduce their anxiety and perhaps bring peace to the Middle East. The fellows in Barbados don’t have to worry too much. West Africans and people of West African cultural heritage tend to practise out marriage, that is even a 4th or 5th cousins in regarded as an unsuitable marriage partners. I myself have forbidden my daughter to date a fellow because her great grandmother and his great, great grandfather (both born before 1890) were first cousins, so don’t worry too much Bajan guys, if you are horned you will know it once a child is born.

  25. cheesecutter

    “some other cultures”….You still haven’t convinced me Bfp.
    98% of this thread subject started on muslims,not other cultures.
    If this thread was based on highlighting abuses to women in general and cited various examples including what some muslim people do,i would agree with you.but not when you have a headline like this–” Mother’s Day – Why The Culture War With Muslim Fundamentalism Will Last A Hundred Years” , can you convince me that this discussion is about oppression of women in general.

    **************

    BFP says,

    Cheesecutter, it is primarily about Muslim oppression of women, with acknowledgment of oppression of women in general. What is your point? That Islam does not oppress women? That Christianity and Islam are equal oppressors of women?

    Really… what is your point?

  26. cheesecutter

    J , who you fooling? the way how things happen in Bim sometimes your daughter could be dating her own brother and dont know it . let me give u this scenario…..girl (JES)has a mother(JILL) and father(BEN). Ben has outside woman(JUDY )in St.Lucy.Judy has a son(BOB) from Ben ,but tells him its not his,its her husband’s. Girl(Jes) chats up BOB on the net and goes to the drive-in with BOB along with her friends. One thing leads to another and JES is with child………….. the story plays along untill one day outside/w JUDY meets BOB’s girl and is told by JES that “i am Ben’s daughter.”
    This could make a good movie but i feel sometimes it could be a reality in our society of one night stands and secret hornings.

  27. J

    Ahhh!!! Cheese Cutter men keep secrets from women, but women don’t keep secrets from each other. Almost certainly in your scenario Jill and Judy know about one another, BUT Ben does not know that his 2 women know of each other,’cause they have no real reason to tell ‘e. They both know he is a liar so they keep him in the dark, but they have both already instructed their children about wuthless Ben’s “other” children. Women don’t tell men even 1/4 of the things that they know.

  28. Bimbro

    Banned Again From VOB
    May 11, 2008 at 7:06 pm
    Bimbro are you paid by BFP, or is ‘kissing up’ a genetic disorder ?

    ***********************************

    It’s a genetic, sence of decency which I hoped that you also, possessed!

    Plus, I hope to become PM!!

    Lord!!!! 🙂

    *********************************

    106
    May 11, 2008 at 9:12 pm
    Why is it that some Muslim men place so much value on the honour of their women?

    ***************************

    It’s obvious and has little to do with real honour but a sense of power over a weaker person and ability to use that power almost anytime, you like!

    It’s the equivalent of being your own little Primeminister, President or even Hitler. Most people love the idea of having power over others, it does n’t much matter who it is and if it can be exercised with impunity, ‘so much the better’!

    We need to disassociate ourselves from such, freaks, for all time! However, I gather u now have quite a few of them, in Bim!

    Your explanation, please!

  29. Jack Bowman

    Banned Again From VOB, beaming in from a distant and apparently wit-free and information-starved galaxy, opines:

    ____________________________________________________
    “Here you go again [BFP] drawing on isolated incidences to Bash [sic] foreign non-Western cultures. The value of the US dollar is plummeting with respect to every commodity and mineral imaginable taking a heap of other currencies with it and causing world wide starvation. Target the true criminals …

    “At first [sic] Scotia and First Caribbean virtually all middle management positions are filled by women. No sweat, after all banking like journalism is girlie-girlie work anyway. But look at the really senior positions … In our neck of the woods real power still resides in the hands of the male species [sic].”
    ____________________________________________________

    So let’s go over that again, just to make sure that everyone’s clear about your position …

    In this small country of Barbados, a couple of banks fail to ensure the proper representation of women in senior management.

    In Iraq, a teenage girl is STAMPED TO DEATH by her father because she loves someone who doesn’t believe in her father’s particular invisible-man-in-the-sky.

    And you’re making some kind of moral equivalence here? Did I get that right?

  30. Bimbro

    BFP, you’ve had quite a few suggestions now, so may I take this opportunity to further suggest that we promise the electorate reformation of our voting system to one of Proportional Representation! It would give people a greater sense of true, representation and might ignite, a much greater initial support for our fledgling, party!

  31. Bimbro

    ‘Banned Again….’, may I please have your vote? I might as well start asking from now!!!! 🙂

    Lorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

  32. Banned Again From VOB

    Bimbo NO, most definitely not. Proportional representation suggests that there is value in the process. Come on good man. I actually am an admirer of Adolph Hitler. ***********

    BFP says,

    What followed was deleted by BFP editor george.

    This person is now banned from BFP, the IP is banned, and if we suspect he returns with a different name, we shall ban him again.

    Further, we will be removing all past posts of this person.

    BFP george

    ***************************

  33. Jack Bowman

    Dear BFP,

    I think that by and large you are doing a very fine and unquestionably necessary job in a “free media-free” country. And I sincerely hope that you keep up the good work.

    But how does it help you to let the rest of us watch two witless dullards (“Lorrrrrrr!!!!”) engage in a puerile dialogue?

    And as regards the breathtakingly asinine and spectacularly unfunny “Banned Again” fool, who tells us that “I actually am an admirer of Adolph Hitler … Adolph is the world’s greatest politician of all time” there are many things to say. But perhaps the first of them is that the man’s name wasn’t “Adolph”.

    An infantile clown.

    *******************

    BFP say,

    Hello Jack

    Banned is indeed banned again. We know who he is because he always reverts to character no matter how careful he is. Our new policy is to remove everything he ever has written once we catch him.

    Hitler was one of the most evil persons ever to set foot on this planet. Banned is welcome to say whatever he wants at his own blog, but not here.

  34. Amused

    To BAFV,

    how could you possibly find my post to be in defense of Christianity? did you understand the sarcasm ??

    There are no 21st century religions. Not one. They are still in the bronze age at best.

    To BFP, you are on solid ground “bashing” islam, go right ahead, we need more people doing it.

  35. Bimbro

    Amused
    May 12, 2008 at 9:11 am
    To BAFV,

    how could you possibly find my post to be in defense of Christianity?

    *******************************

    To put it mildly, what’s so wrong with christianity!

    I don’t want to start pelting abuse aready this fine marnin but u provoking me to do so!

    *************************

    BAFV, had a long and serious discussion with my neighbours, family and friends over whether I should run in Bim and they drew me reluctantly, to the realisation that I can’t take the heat there, (the sun) therefore sadly, I’ve decided to withdraw my offer of becoming PM, at least, in the near future! Am disappointed that you could n’t nonetheless, have offered me your vote!

    🙂

  36. Bimbro

    BFP, I’ve only one disagreement with u, over this story and that’s your assertion that ‘the war will last 100 years’!

    I disagree. It’s already lasted several hundred years and shows no sign of waning!

    It’ll only end when the muslims win because the west have been idiotic enough to invite them to live in our countries and they’re incapable of changing their mind-set!

    Our only hope would be to insist they converted to christianity or leave our countries, voluntarily, or be expelled and the west does n’t have the courage for such action thus you can expect that, in the long term, we shall ALL, eventually become muslim and all be eliminated, thanks to the cretinism of our leaders!

  37. Laughing

    Sorry. I only read this today. But I have to admit, I am again amused by so many people who contribute to this blog. Despite what society she lived in….the young lady was a human being. Despite what religion her father practised….he snuffed out a human life.

    Now lets stop all the fundamentalism, and step away from religion for a second. Lets look at reality. Obviously most of the world thinks that such practices are wrong otherwise even in Western society with the intermingling of cultures we would have summary executions like this one.

    Anybody ever wonder why? Even ‘Banned Again From VOB’ has obviously experienced this….that is why he was banned. For any form of order or respect for property to exist in any society we MUST have rules…or laws, call them what you wish. In the story recounted the police obviously thought something was wrong they arrested the father. But then, something kicked in. Something you cant really measure or qualify…..feeling. Obviously Iraq is war torn, and like a lot of us Iraqis feel the soldiers are there too long, so they REACTED. So here we are arguing away and drawing concepts and forgetting the fact that the people in that country are under severe duress.

    But since I know I will have detractors, I will do this. remember the case some years ago in Barbados of the Muslim father who allegedly poisoned his daughters because they were talking to regular Bajan boys at BCC. He felt honour too apparently, but he hid and did it, in a away that no one can conclusively prove. SO WHICH IS HONOUR? LET US BE REALISTIC. Muslim men pride themselves on the dowry or call it what you will he will derive from marrying off his daughter to a rich landowner or cattle owner or business owner. In both cases, both men were worried that their daughters ‘carrying on’ with ‘outside parties’ to the marriage contract could bring them shame if the other Muslim father they had ‘contracted’ with pulled out of the ‘contract’

    That is the real issue isnt it? These girls are seen like cattle because they are saleable items, marketeable in the eyes of their Muslime fathers. Not meaning to offend anyone, but in previous centuries if a Muslim king or Shiek promised his daughter to many another king’s son, and in these cases their was always gold, and jewels, cattle etc waiting to be exchanged, the first wedding night (honeymoon night as we say) they made love on a pristine white mat or sheet. Next morning that mat or sheet had to be displayed for all the loyal subjects to be seen, with the blood on it. If no blood, poor girl. That and only that sealed the deal.

    I am not saying that all of our customs in the West are good, or even palatable but come on! A story like this is recounted and so many people missed the point of it! and go on to parade and pontify THEMSELVES!!!!

  38. Laughing

    Im sorry to do this but I have to. This guy BAFV says that he admires Adolf Hitler. Hmmmmmm I dont want to tell anyone who to like but……Hitler? If he really believed in what he believed in, he would have stayed around and faced the music. Even try to change a few more people after the war.
    You know what he really believed in? HIMSELF. And he ran away, committed suicide whatever he did because he didnt believe in HIMSELF anymore! Now you admire him….what an epitome of hopelessness!
    By the way, I have heard your voice on VOB…..LOL….. yeah Im gonna stereotype, you sound like a black man. You know what? You should have gone to meet him during the Third Reich. He would have been admiring pictures of you waiting to be slaughtered like the rest of the races he felt were useless on the earth. Oh yeah! after the Jews in Europe, Africa was next!

  39. dogbitemuh

    When God created the earth and mankind he intended us all to live together but sadly we are all a divisive people from our religion back down to our own personal lives. In my estimation there is no one religion which is the true religion and no one human being better than the other, but we are all one people under God and if we could just align our lives under his true instruction there would be no more need for division, senseless murders and the old boys club (as mentioned earlier), all of which are bad in the sight of the Almighty.

  40. You know what

    This is a horrifying story. Centipede is right.

    Our governments in the west need to maintain a careful watch of the growth of muslim commuinties in our midst. Islamists do not share our core values and respect for life; and I strongly believe that we should stop this nonsense of pandering to their beliefs by such things as changing the content of books in schools, accepting wearing of veils,etc.

    No doubt, the western world and christian societies have their faults. However, we in christian societies need to take a radical look at islam and what it really is about, viz. world domination (similar to what the chinese are attempting to do, but that is another story). This is not simply a clash of cultures, what we are in fact seeing is a creeping threat to our way of life, freedom of expression and values system albeit imperfect.

    And yes, I support George Bush and his response to 9/11 and no doubt he has made some mistakes that have in the short term weakened the USA, but this is what happens when you face an enemy the likes you have not seen before; a faceless coward who disrespect its womenfolk to the point that they are used as suicide terrorists. A woman in islam has no worth. Yet, the reaction of the girl’s mother, Leila Hussein tells us that at the basic core any decent person would see this for what it really is, a horrible, despicable act.

  41. Ady Hotep

    God knows we in the West are not perfect our women are rape and murdered in relatively large numbers every year and we should be addressing this.ALL religions are male-centred murder cults hence the treatment or rather mistreatment of women.On the question of Islam I work and live amongst Muslims they say they hate Western women but I see them on weekends cruising the towns centres up here in England looking for Western women.Some that I work with given half the chance will bed a Western woman and then slag her off.Hypocrisy is after all the tribute vice pays to virtue.Recently in Blackburn the police broke up an Asian child sex ring grown men targetting young 13/14 year old white females.Islam is in need of reformation or God help us all.I am on BFP’s side BFP is only trying to highlight a problem and we need to ask which women are better off Christian or Muslim and why.

  42. crossroads

    whats up bfp all my comments are being blocked

    ****************

    BFP says,

    All your comments are comments asking why you can’t post. Nothing substantial has been submitted. Make a real comment and it will probably appear.

  43. Bimbro

    Please stay away from these shores, otherwise you would force me to commit murder on you.

    **********************************

    Bajan humour or otherwise, I don’t think that BFP should be publishing anybody’s threat to murder, anybody!

    BFP, I request that you sanction this contributor (Johnnie Too Bad)! We must aim for higher standards not lower! Like anybody else, I’m entitled to express my view. He’s always at liberty to express his, without recourse to making threats!

    I’m not interested in threatening, anybody only in making Bim a better place to live!

    “I’m odious!” Well, at least I don’t make threats to people! What could be more odious, than that!

    Furthermore, Ady Hotep’s view, also from the UK, indicates that of the two of us, MY view is the more veracious, i.e:

    “On the question of Islam I work and live amongst Muslims they say they hate Western women but I see them on weekends cruising the towns centres up here in England looking for Western women.Some that I work with given half the chance will bed a Western woman and then slag her off.Hypocrisy is after all the tribute vice pays to virtue.Recently in Blackburn the police broke up an Asian child sex ring grown men targetting young 13/14 year old white females.Islam is in need of reformation or God help us all.”

    BFP, I request your disapproval and sanction!

    ***************

    BFP says,

    You’ve got it, Bimbro. Johnny too bad is banned and his comments deleted. Zero tolerance here for that nonsense.

  44. Technician

    To You Know What……

    Maybe it is the double standards and the hypocrisy of the western world which is helping this problem develop. You see on one hand, the western world condemns Muslims for their beliefs and ways, yet still the USA is in bed with countries like Saudi Arabia, who, like China has some serious human rights violations. There are still public beheadings done in the square on Fridays you know.
    America prostitutes herself to these countries for the black gold. Dont you think someone has to pay the piper. The Arabs know what oil is to the Yankees, so for it the price they have to pay is the proverbial turning of the cheek and acceptance, however reluctantly of the Muslim beliefs and culture. Sad to say , this process is not going to end anytime soon. As bad as China, Muslims, Arabs etc. are…the sad thing is that the western world cannot survive without them. Until they find a way to, then this pattern will always continue because of the inbred greed of western societies.

  45. cheesecutter

    Just let me intervene here for what “Laughing” said.
    1.The girls that were “poisoned”(i dont know if that was even substantiated by the way) so many years ago were NOT muslims,neither was the father.
    2. That dowry thing you are mentioning is Not related to muslims.Actually in muslim marriages the groom has to pay a dowry,NOT the bride.
    i just wanted to clear that up.

  46. cheesecutter

    With this whole issue,let me put the same situation with another scenario…..
    Barbados is invaded by 200 000 Afghan Islamic al-qaeda minded soldiers(combatants take your pick). They said they came to free us from some nonsensical situation. They bomb up the infrastructure and have us lining up on saturdays to buy sugar and just anything else.
    A nice black virgin(might be a rarity now though) village girl sees a handsome alqaeda who promises her heaven and earth if she hooks up with him.
    Now tell me, if this girl’s parents found out what was going on in this type of situation you feel they would allow it?Here is an invader who terrorises my land ,kills my own people and wants to start a relationship with my daughter.
    Although most of us would not resort to killing our daughter,I doubt any of us would allow such a thing to take place,especially with a percieved enemy who is religiously and culturally different than us.

  47. ROBOT

    banned from vob again ?

    explain the name please

    about the muslim girl
    i dont believe it
    sounds like a lie to me

  48. Laughing

    Wasnt going to respond.
    But I had to respond to ‘cheesecutter’
    The dowry is actually against Islamic laws but it is practiced in most soceity cultures in the form I used. A contract. If you really read and understood my statements you would have seen the word contract used repeatedly and for a reason. It is like you or I agreeing to buy a piece of land there are terms and conditions pre-stated and pre-agreed (yeah i coined them!!!) And like any contract it breaks down if one party breaches the terms or if there is a mutual agreement to end the contract. That is where the shame comes in.
    And ‘cheesecutter’ the dowry in some countries and cultures is paid to the groom but not in most. Do some more research, check it out, and discern. Despite what the ‘official’ word is families do use this process to improve their financial status.
    As for the Barbadian father, well ‘cheesecutter’ I always thought they were Muslim, but they must have been Hindu then. But you know actually by correcting me you helped me make my point. Proves my honour point, since it cant be a religious belief, if it is a different religion!!
    Thanks ‘cheesecutter’ for helping me make my point.

  49. cheesecutter

    Seems to me my other comment is taking long to post .
    Maybe i offended BFP. I was just giving an example of how one would feel when the shoe is on the other foot.
    What did that B…VOB guy said……”people in glass houses….”.
    My final point is this,i will try to be more balanced the day when BFP starts critisizing Christians and Jews(or zionists more so) in these forums.

  50. cheesecutter

    Bfp a see my post is up,you can delete the last one if it sounds out of place.

  51. Rohan

    Ady Hotep writes:
    “ALL religions are male-centred murder cults”

    Hmm not all are murder cults, but many are…with their sacrifices, crucifictions, religious wars, murder as punishment for homosexuality, murder for worshiping false idols, murder for blasphemy, and murder of the entire earth’s population for some reason or the other!

    I’ll give you this though, most of the major ones are male centered. Shoot, women couldn’t even speak in the church. Not to mention stories like daughters getting their father drunk and having sex with him. And this is where most of you jokers get your so-called morals from.

    But of course, the same level of arrogance that makes one believe that their particular belief in their particular God is better than everyone else’s, allows one to look down with slanted eyes at another murder cult religion and preach about how bad their beliefs are.

    When in fact, all the muslims are doing are faithfully following their childish teachings. The bible teaches a lot of the same stuff, but most of you are either too hypocritical or too ignorant (as in not aware) to acknowledge this.
    Peace

  52. Thistle

    BFP: Okay, I know this is YOUR blog and it is up to you to ban whomever you choose to, but cu-dear, BFP, I can’t believe you seriously banned Johnny Too Bad for what I took to be tongue-in-cheek words (“force me to commit murder on you”) at the request of that idiot-to-beat-all-idiots, the Bimbro nut house inmate??! Good Lord (no sorry, Laaaaaaaaaaaadddd!!!), BFP, everyone else on here either laughs at him or ignores him. Hasn’t it occurred to you that he is a Blog Heckler? A stinging ant?
    Well, after that, I guess you’ll ban me too! I guess that’s the way the cookie crumbles. Laaaaaaaaaddd!

    ****************

    BFP says,

    Hello Thistle,

    You must remember that the writers of this blog and others (Adrian Loveridge, authors of Keltruth Blog, Ian Bourne) have all been subjected to serious threats. In Adrian’s case there were two arsons at his business after threats were made to burn the place down.

    Zero tolerance for such things here. Like standing in line at the airport and joking about a bomb or a box cutter… zero tolerance.

  53. Pat

    Laughing said:
    “the first wedding night (honeymoon night as we say) they made love on a pristine white mat or sheet. Next morning that mat or sheet had to be displayed for all the loyal subjects to be seen, with the blood on it. If no blood, poor girl. That and only that sealed the deal.”

    Laughing, I am laughing too. That practice is still done today. In India, Pakistan, Turkey, Bangladesh, Egypt and several countries in Africa. It is also practiced in parts of the South Pacific. I took a course in social anthropology – Other Cultures, Life and Marriage traditions. Young kid that I was, it left me wide eyed.

  54. Rohan

    To prove my point:

    Lev.14
    And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

    (So in the Bible, the punishment for blasphemy is DEATH)

    then when this happens:

    Afgan sentenced to death for blasphemy:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7204341.stm

    Christians will throw up their hands and say “those backward muslims”. If christians were faithful they would actually carry out the teachings of the bible. By not carrying out the teachings they’re saying “you know what, the bible is wrong. Killing homosexuals is wrong. Stoning people to death for cursing God is wrong.”

    But then that would mean that their so-called God isn’t “perfect”.

    It’s a catch 22 that’s almost hilarious to me.

    *************

    BFP says

    So your point is that the Muslim societies who stone people to death for blasphemy are about 2000 years behind the Christians?

  55. Rohan

    BFP says

    So your point is that the Muslim societies who stone people to death for blasphemy are about 2000 years behind the Christians?

    Hmm not quite. But let’s assume for a minute that it is. How could a perfect God deliver a perfect message, if that message then becomes out-dated when people become more civilized (2000 yrs later)? That would mean that the God in the bible was uncivilized (imperfect). That’s my larger point.

    My secondary point: Should we say muslims are backwards for faithfully following their teachings or perhaps that Christians are disobedient for ignoring theirs.

    Answer: We should be able to just point out that both of the teachings (with all due respect) are garbage and if neither existed the world would be a better place.

  56. Bimbro

    BFP says,

    You’ve got it, Bimbro. Johnny too bad is banned and his comments deleted. Zero tolerance here for that nonsense.

    ********************************

    Thank you, BFP. I could n’t believe his impudence and felt convinced I was dealing with civilised people and not animals! I’ve happy that you’ve proved me right!

  57. Bimbro

    Technician, I’m surprised at the high level of your sanctimoniousness! Are you a saint or hoping to become one? Sometimes we need to accommodate ‘uncomfortable-bedfellows’, for a while, it does n’t have to mean we’re in love with them or their way of life! Time to remove the halo, Techie, my friend, even if only, temporarily!

    ********************************

    Well, after that, I guess you’ll ban me too!

    *********************************

    Well, Thistle, if I were BFP, I WOULD ban you too, for repeating the threat! And what gives you the right to speak for others on this board! You’re lucky it’s not my blog, or that would be the last we’d ever hear of you on here!

    ***********************************

    Muslim admirers, like the aspirant, communists of old, had one simple choice, to go and live in a muslim country, if they’d have them! None of them ever did but they love to bore us with their vacuous, aimless, hot-air because you think it sounds good! If you’re so enamoured of Islam why for god’s sake not just emigrate to one of those countries and leave the rest of us alone! The reason is you know you’re talking *rap, and so do the rest of us!

    Nice day!

  58. Ady Hotep

    Rohan – Your post show a a critical thinking which is so sadly lacking in today’s world.I have often wonder how would mankind function without Islam,Christianity etc.It would probably call for a people’s re-education.Somethingelse that should be pointed out.When countries are fighting with each other/at war/invade each other there is always invaribly a case where women and men from opposing sides fall in love.The Germans had loads of English women in Jersey during the war.How many Spanish consquitadors were involved with native South American Indians.Poor girl was murdered over nothing,I do hope she is in a far better place.

  59. Real Ting

    Just wanted to say to the early posters who noted the two situations in our western world of female abuse re the man in Austria and the polygamous sect; two deplorable situations for sure but you should note that both situations aroused the ire and condemnation of every normal everyday westerner and that the parties involved are being tried and will be severely punished with the full weight of the law and society. The Austrian man is rightfully viewed as a monster. Now how can you compare that to the Muslim getting pats on the back from the “understanding men ” in the area.

    Abominations and despicable deeds will occur in any society but the mark of the modern society is equality for females, civil rights and freedoms especially freedom of religion, speech and choice as the norm. The modern society punishes and censures those who perform these deeds even if it cannot prevent them all from occuring. Some of you people just cant think logically so when faced with the backward middle aged fluff that is Islam you put on ur rose coloured glasses and and say that the western world is no better. Rubbish!!

    Oh and there is some fluff in christianity too and plenty of dogma as well but at least it has progressed to a stage where its not forced on people whether they want it or not and the cost of not following its tenets is death.

    And for all the apologists who will say that the honour killing had nothing to do with Islam,Show me one Fundamentalist Muslim who would have come out and condemned the death as senseless, wicked and an abomination to Islam. I thought so.

  60. Brandon

    “Now remember everybody, the man in Austria who kept his daughter and and incestous grandchildren imprisoned for 25 years. Austria is a Christian Western country ain’t it?”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but most Austrians reacted with horror to that story. Again I may be wrong, but the man who did that wasn’t lauded by his neighbors or praised for his integrity by the Austrian police. Nice try, though. Got any more brilliant analogies to throw out there?

  61. crossroads

    Nonsense BFP, my original complaint was after a geniune post. many thanks

    **************

    BFP says

    Hi crossroads.

    We didnt’ get it and it wasn’t in the spam bucket, so it did not arrive. Sometimes that happens and folks are advised to keep a copy of your comment until you see it posted – especially if it took you some time to compose. Some of our reader comments are almost articles on their own.

  62. crossroads

    Thanks again

  63. Rohan

    We can debate which superstitious zealots (muslims or christians) have created more horror in the world in the name of their God, or treat their women better, or treat their slaves better, or whatever else.

    Bottom line is this:

    They are both man made legends that have been perfect for the masses that are not able or inclined to THINK.

    Einstein said it best:
    “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

    *****************

    BFP responds…

    “God is Dead” … quote by Friedrich Nietzsche

    “Nietzsche is Dead” … quote by God.

  64. ammani

    To the people who think this is an isolated crime, rest assured, it is not.

    Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
    “Reclaiming Honor in Jordan”

  65. Rohan

    BFP responds…

    “God is Dead” … quote by Friedrich Nietzsche

    “Nietzsche is Dead” … quote by God.
    ***********************************

    Actually the second quote was by someone who believes in the magic fairy tale bearded white man in the sky that knows whether we’ve been good or bad (no, not Santa Claus, the other one) haha 🙂

    *****************

    BFP says,

    But if there is no god… no higher power, then might is right and there is no right or wrong except what we agree upon, or are forced to agree upon. (“Power comes from the barrel of a gun”, Mao)

  66. Amused

    “But if there is no god… no higher power, then might is right and there is no right or wrong except what we agree upon”

    +++++++++++++++

    two points on this BFP,

    one, belief there is no god is a necessary but not a suffcient condition for the nihilism to which you refer. In other words. your logic does not implictly follow.

    two,

    more importantly,

    there may or may not be an objective morality and you may believe such exists because you believe in the existence of a theistic god.

    However, the real problem comes when you pick and choose the bits you like from your bronze age writings, tell us the source of the objective morality is from such writings and indeed such writings are THE source and THE ONLY source of this perfect objective morality and moreover you are indeed absolutely certain of this and your absolute certainty (without a shred of evidence) is in fact a virtue to be admired.

    That is when the killing starts.

    So you may feel without god, anything goes.

    Seems rather to me that WITH religion, anything is allowable.

  67. Technician

    I must say BFP, you all talk about zero tolerance..what a joke…just say it is our blog…blah …blah …blah..

    I remember being on ‘always moderate’ for some time and after asking why, your response was, that my IP was one of those making death threats to Adrian Loveridge. This was the joke of the century and a lie that you all could never prove.Fact was, that I had boxed you in a corner about your failure to post the ML story and that was your way of trying to silence me.Ask AL who Technician is, and I am sure it will shock the pants off you!!
    My point is this….we all make mistakes and pay the price on your blog……who pays when you do?
    Bimbro insults anyone he cares to, he has called black people monkeys all over the blogshpere. yet you ban a good contributor because he just cant handle Bimbro the way I and others have.
    You could at least have warned him, imagine….no Johnnie Too Bad…..but Bimbro is still here after he ran whining like a bitch to BFP.

    ******************

    BFP says,

    I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree, Tech.

    IF you have a problem with that, hey… you know the URL!

  68. BFP says,

    But if there is no god… no higher power, then might is right and there is no right or wrong except what we agree upon, or are forced to agree upon. (”Power comes from the barrel of a gun”, Mao)
    **************
    Your argument:
    “If there is no God then there is no right or wrong” is in itself a logical fallacy. It’s an overused theist argument that has no basis. Feel free to show how your “if/then” argument flows logically.

    Things to ponder though:
    1) Which of the hundreds of Gods are you talking about?
    2) How do you know you chose the right one? (Besides arrogance or the luck of being born in Barbados and not India?)
    3) Was the God in the bible moral? Then why would he condone and prescribe immoral behavior like stoning folks to death for their beliefs or sexuality or the institution of slavery. Or were these things morally right in your eyes?

    Let’s Assume these things are wrong:

    How did I know they were wrong and God himself didn’t know?

    You can treat these questions like rhetorical questions to just think about, or if you are so inclined you can answer. Either way.
    Peace

  69. Pat

    Einstein said it best:
    “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

    *****************

    Yes, the letter in which he wrote that is up for auction in London today. He wrote it to a philosopher friend, Jewish like himself. He said a lot more too.

    ammani
    May 13, 2008 at 7:48 pm
    To the people who think this is an isolated crime, rest assured, it is not.

    Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
    “Reclaiming Honor in Jordan”
    ++++++++++

    Ammani: today a Jordanian, 23 years old, got ten years, commuted from life, for killing his sister. The ex-husband told him that his sister had had affairs. Talk about a revengeful man.

  70. Pat

    To ban someone for allegedgly making a veiled death threat, to someone who lives in England, visited Barbados once in 50 years, and who comes on here under a non-de-plume, is cause for a good laugh. So, how was the person going to track down Bimbro to exercise the threat? Was he going to post his particulars on here before his next visit in 50 years?

    *************

    BFP says,

    Hello Pat,

    We said zero tolerance and we mean it. No discussion. End of story.

    Call it one of our idiosyncrasies that you will either have to live with or not.

  71. Bimbro

    BFP says,

    I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree, Tech.

    IF you have a problem with that, hey… you know the URL!

    ************************

    Thank you, BFP.

    *************************

    Technician, I was just beginning to try to excuse you but you’ve surprised me by your willingness to lie. You said, “he has called black people monkeys all over the blogshpere.” You deliberately, and duplicitiously, make this sound as though I called all or many black people monkeys, which you know perfectly well that I did n’t but sarcastically, referred to a picture of a rather disgusting looking group of Rastafarians as monkeys. Your attempt to deceive the readers of this blog is shameful and if it were mine you too, would certainly, be history. Mind you, some people seem to enjoy being fooled!

    And, “all over the blogosphere”? It was just the one instance on BU, and you know it, so I’m really appalled by your willingness to lie! Maybe Barbadians would rather listen to somebody like you, than me. People can be a strange bunch! I leave it to them! However, from trying to reprieve you from being a pot-smoking-junkie, I’ve now given up on you, and you can’t deny that YOU said you smoke pot! It’s there on BU, for all to see.

    “The way you’ve handled me”! By lying you mean! Sorry, Techie, tried to reconcile with you but you’re beyond reprieve!

    Pat, I guess it’s a matter of standards and clearly, yours are in the gutter!

  72. Pat

    Bimbro, please, give it a rest. You banned so many people from your BLOG, that eventually you were the only person posting and replying to your own posts. Now it seems you want to control this blog too. If that happens, it will go the way of yours: DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! Lawddddddddddd.

    Bimbro, I guess you were there first, in the gutter, and pulled me in! You know nothing of me nor my standards, so lay-off. Unless of course, you want me to reproduce here some of the chit you posted at other sites. Then others will see who is in the gutter!

  73. Thistle

    Well, I’m glad to see I am not the only one who exercises ZERO tolerance on the Bimbro creep.

  74. Bimbro

    Dear BFP, to be perfectly, honest I’m getting quite fed up with these personal attacks from Pat and Thistle. I request that you deal with them or I may have to take my leave of you. I would, nontheless, wish you all the best in achieving your objectives!

    **************************

    BFP says,

    All parties should cease fire or we shall have to start taking action.

    Play nice, folks.

  75. Technician

    LOL Pat…he thinks no one knows about his failed blog……imagine asking and answering his own posts….hahaha.

  76. Bimbro

    Technician
    May 15, 2008 at 10:43 am
    LOL Pat…he thinks no one knows about his failed blog……imagine asking and answering his own posts….hahaha.

    **********************************

    BFP, I don’t wish to have to reply to this creep but he does n’t appear to have taken any notice of your stricture! I ask you, again, to please take action against these creeps!

    *******************

    BFP says,

    Bimbro… you refer to them as creeps. YOU are part of the problem as they are.

    Ignore the taunts of the other little children or daddy shall have to put you ALL in your rooms to think about playing nice.

  77. Bimbro

    BFP,

    I’m disappointed you did n’t notice that ‘Thistle’ was the first person to use this term towards me, earlier today. It is not a term which I would normally, use.

    Thistle
    May 15, 2008 at 12:05 am
    Well, I’m glad to see I am not the only one who exercises ZERO tolerance on the Bimbro creep.

    Anyway, on this occasion your decision has fallen below the very high standard which I normally, expect of you. I certainly, would n’t wish to be anybody’s ‘problem’, so best wishes with them!

    P.S. My earlier post is still, awaiting moderation!

  78. Bimbro

    Sorry, BFP, it’s all about standards. I’m not interested in playing in the gutter – I did n’t think you were, either!

  79. Bimbro

    Dear BFP, is this how you propose to deal with difficult problems when you gain the reigns of power i.e. do nothing, or pretend they don’t exist?

  80. dfx

    It seems that Hindus are getting in on the honour killing too. Maybe it’s just part of the culture of that region and not just an Islam thing. So who do we fight now? Muslems? Hindus? Help me out here BFP.

    Indian village proud after double “honor killing”

    BALLA, India (Reuters) – Five armed men burst into the small room and courtyard at dawn, just as 21-year-old, 22-week pregnant, Sunita was drying her face on a towel.

    They punched and kicked her stomach as she called out for her sleeping boyfriend “Jassa”, 22-year-old Jasbir Singh, witnesses said. When he woke, both were dragged into waiting cars, driven away and strangled.

    Their bodies, half-stripped, were laid out on the dirt outside Sunita’s father’s house for all to see, a sign that the family’s “honor” had been restored by her cold-blooded murder.

    A week later, the village of Balla, just a couple of hours drive from India’s capital New Delhi, stands united behind the act, proud, defiant almost to a man.

    Among the Jat caste of the conservative northern state of Haryana, it is taboo for a man and woman of the same village to marry. Although the couple were not related, they were seen in this deeply traditional society as brother and sister.

    “From society’s point of view, this is a very good thing,” said 62-year-old farmer Balwan Arya, sitting smoking a hookah in the shade of a tree in a square with other elders from the village council or panchayat. “We have removed the blot.”

    Growing economic opportunities for young people and lower castes in Haryana have made “love marriages” more common, experts say, and the violent repression of them has risen in tandem as upper caste Jat men fight to hold on to power, status and property.

    Sunita’s father Om Prakash has confessed to murdering his pregnant daughter and her boyfriend, police told Reuters. An uncle and two cousins were among four others arrested.

    But in Balla many people believe the father confessed merely to underline that he supported his daughter’s killing, to satisfy honor and protect the real culprits among his family or village.

    At their house, Sunita’s mother did not emerge to talk. Instead, a young man on a motorbike tried to intimidate the Reuters team into leaving. It turned out he was another of Sunita’s cousins, his father and brother held by police.

    “We are not ashamed of it, absolutely not, we have the honor of doing the village proud,” he said.

    “We would not have had a face to show if we had not done this. It was the act of ‘real men’.”

    THE POWER OF UPPER CASTE MEN
    The relatively prosperous northern state of Haryana is one of India’s most conservative when it comes to caste, marriage and the role of women. Deeply patriarchal, caste purity is paramount and marriages are arranged to sustain the status quo.

    Men and women are still murdered across the villages of northern India for daring to marry outside their caste, but in Haryana the practice is widespread, and widely supported.

    Here, women veil their faces with scarves in public. The illegal abortion of female fetuses is common, the ratio of women to men in Haryana just 861 to 1,000, the lowest in the country.

    Anyone who transgresses social codes, by marrying across caste boundaries or within the same village, is liable to meet the same fate as Sunita and Jasbir.

    Many such murders are never reported, hardly any result in prosecution, says Professor Javeed Alam, chairman of the Indian Council of Social Science Research.

    “People from the same village are treated as siblings in Haryana,” he said. “So this is treated as incest.”

    Without any law to prohibit this kind of marriage, “the only way you can punish it is by taking the law into your own hands. People believe people who commit incest should be killed”.

    Nor do politicians ever renounce the practice, Alam added, because if they did, “they would not win elections”.

    And the legalization of property rights for women in 1956 made love marriages within a village even more dangerous for this elite, as daughters living close to home could in theory claim a part of the family land, sociologist Prem Chowdhry says.

    CHILDHOOD SWEETHEARTS
    Sunita and Jasbir, sweethearts in the same class at school, had little chance. When he left school a couple of years before her to become an photographer’s apprentice, he would often hang around at the school gates to collect her.

    She was married off to another man, but left her husband to elope with Jasbir a year-and-a-half ago, and while the families tried to keep them apart, they realized it was a losing battle.

    “They were madly in love even to the last day,” said Jasbir’s 16-year-old sister-in-law Lalita in the house where they lived in Machhroli village, around 35 km (20 miles) by road from Balla.

    To make matters worse, Jasbir was from a lower sub-caste, and she was pregnant outside marriage. Sunita’s parents in Balla found themselves virtually ostracized.

    “Nobody would drink water in our house,” Sunita’s mother Roshni is reported to have said. “My daughter’s action made us aliens in our own land. But we have managed to redeem our honor. She paid for her ill-gotten action.”

    But among Jasbir’s family, split between Machhroli and Balla, grief is mixed with fear.

    “Why are you talking to the media?” shouted a female family member at one point. “This will only bring more trouble.”

    At the small police post in Balla, a constable admitted the case was unlikely to ever reach prosecution, with the village putting enormous pressure on the police, and especially Jasbir’s family, to quietly drop the case.

    “We are being pressurized into reaching an agreement, a compromise, without even being given time to grieve,” said Jasbir’s 25-year-old sister Neelam. “We have been told that if we don’t compromise, we will suffer the same fate.”

    In the narrow alleyway outside their tiny house, women wailed in grief. A few hundred yards away, the panchayat sat in quiet self-satisfaction.

    “The people who have done this should get an award for it,” said 48-year-old Satvir Singh. “This was a murder of morality.”

    *********************

    BFP says,

    Absolutely, Hindu honour killings (not to mention Seti – look it up) and the caste system are all part of the oppression that exists in India. Just as with Islam’s subjugation of women, it is long established.

    Which all goes back to the original point… some cultures and societies have different rules, rules that are such a violation of our cultural norms that there can be no compromise or meeting of the minds.

  81. Bimbro

    Sorry, ‘reins’ of power!

  82. reformislam

    The STOP HONORCIDE! campaign was launched on Mother’s Day 2008. The goal of the campaign is to prosecute honorcides to the fullest extent of the law. We want honorcide to be classified as a hate crime and we advocate for every existing hate crime legislation to be amended to include honorcide.

    http://www.reformislam.org/honorcide/

  83. Bimbro

    Dear BFP, I note that my comment made on the 15th May is still ‘awaiting moderation’, so I’ve no recollection of what that says! However, I thought to draw your attention to this:

    Pat
    May 14, 2008 at 1:32 am
    To ban someone for allegedgly making a veiled death threat, to someone who lives in England, visited Barbados once in 50 years, and who comes on here under a non-de-plume, is cause for a good laugh. So, how was the person going to track down Bimbro to exercise the threat? Was he going to post his particulars on here before his next visit in 50 years?

    *************

    BFP says,

    Hello Pat,

    We said zero tolerance and we mean it. No discussion. End of story.

    Call it one of our idiosyncrasies that you will either have to live with or not.

    **************************

    Followed by Pat today by this on BU!

    Well Bimbro, I have it from my spies on the island that you took your mother home for burial last year. So I can now say you went home ONCE in FIFTY years and it was only because of a bereavement.

    *************************

    I describe her as an internet-pervert! BFP, I just would like to ask you again, if this is the calibre of person who you’re happy to accommodate on your blog? She does n’t strike me as retaining the kinds of standards to which you aspire and call for everybody else, to do also!

    ***************************

    BFP says,

    Bimbro: you are becoming a lot of trouble, aggravation and work. We’ll have a talk about you tomorrow at our lunch meeting. I will be for banning you and any of the other children who cannot play nicely with each other.

    Meanwhile you are sitting on the “time out” chair until lunch.

    george.

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