Baptist Minister and Buddhist Monk Also Under Investigation For Incitement Of Terror
Oh… wait a minute, we got it all wrong – but you knew that already.
It was Muslim “radicals” who planned to blow fuel lines leading to John F. Kennedy International Airport and murder thousands of ordinary men, women and children. Of course, they say that their interpretation of the Koran and Allah’s wish for them is to kill non-believers and so be blessed.
Cue the Caribbean Muslim organisations…
Will the Muslim spokespersons now say “These guys are not true Muslims. Allah will punish them for murdering” or will they say, “We now fear a backlash.” without clearly denouncing the actions of the terrorists? Or will they say “We don’t believe it. It’s a set-up. No Muslim would ever do that!”
Like we say… Cue the Caribbean Muslim organisations…
CNN: 4 Charged With Terror Plot At JFK Airport
UPDATED: Nation News Headline Story Omits The “M” Word!
From Our “We Told Ya So!” Department…
The Nation News headline story this morning JFK Plot tells all about the plan to murder thousands of men, women and children whose only crime was to live near the jet-fuel depot and distribution pipelines…
Who Was Going To Terrorise and Murder?
Them. They. Terrorists. Radicals.
Call them anything… but for Allah’s Sake, just don’t say the “M” or the “I” words!!!!!
Barbados Free Press 
Lets see
Trinidad basically now controls the Barbadian economy.
Guyana and Trinidad have horrible and maybe unsolvable crime and constant political instability.
Thank God we have the CCJ!!!
We are now saved for only a $100 million dollars or so. Remind me. I forgot, how many caribbean countries have joined this new INDEPEDENT body? Wasn’t this the brainchild of our government led by our Chief Justice?
All these terrorists will no doubt shortly be in jail and we can all look forward to a united caribbean and common market with the Rule of Law fully in place ( plus a devalued EEC currency ).
I’ve expressed by disagreement before, with the idea of mulsims living in Bim and a contributor kindly, informed us that daily, more are coming in with all of this emigration from Guyana and elsewhere – in my view, a huge mistake. It’s irrefutable, that wherever muslims go, in number, trouble follows. Nobody can persuade me of the ‘wisdom’ of allowing muslims into our country.
Do you fancy risking possible, injury to Bim’s economy and reputation when one of these miscreants eventually, comes from Bim?
Know anybody who works in the tourism industry, not to mention any other aspect of our country’s existence and all because of our PM’s lack of wisdom.
Trinidad, Guyana – they’re getting closer, guys. As I’ve warned, before; the clock is ticking even louder.
Bimbro: Bajans call the radio call-in programmes regularly, and write letters to the newspapers, with their concerns about “Guyanese in Barbados”. Not “Muslims in Barbados”. I can tell you openly that their concern is not based on RELIGION, but rather on RACE! They are unhappy about Bim being flooded with East Indians. If the Guyanese were all black, I don’t think it would be a problem. Bajans seem to be blissfully unaware of the wider picture. Some of the East Indians coming here are Hindus, who appear to be peaceful people. Guyanese coming here have “contacts” who hide them from Immigration. They also assume false names and are up to all kinds of tricks to avoid being deported. There was one Guyanese woman who had been deported from Barbados SEVEN times and she told Immigration that they would never stop her from coming here! These are the facts, Bimbro, and in my opinion, Immigration is not doing enough to stop the flood. Either they can’t be bothered, or they’re being rewarded handsomely. Sad, isn’t it.
Enjoy teh blog, pop in from time to time, BUT maybe BFP is a little too susceptible to hype from North America.
How many times has dubya claimed “we must fight them in Iraq so we won’t have to fight them on our streets”? Apparently that’s why he needed all those billions and US lives wasted.
Anybody else wonder if you-know-who and his parties’ falling popularity has anything to do with this?
And another perhaps not inconsequential point -. this “plot” was foiled by old fashion police work, no illegal wiretaps, no extraordinary rendition and no torture. The “threat” was actually like those that law enforcement agencies have always had to combat, as opposed to a threat unlike anything that has ever been faced before and therefore requiring the suspension of all civil liberties and standards of common decency.
Oh well.
Thank you, Thistle. I’m opposed to any, or too, many Asians being allowed to emigrate to our country, period because they have no genuine regard for us and will, most certainly, eventually, delight in taking over our country from us, as they do wherever they go . However, my main worry is with the insidious, pernicious, evil muslims who thrive on evil and disharmony.
I am very, disappointed to hear that Barbadians, on the whole, don’t seem to be alert to the danger of having those people, among them!
As for the Immigration personnel, we clearly, have to keep a close watch on them.
We are heading rapidly to the point of no return. 30,000 Guyanese estimated on this island – 10% of our population. Who knows who many Trinidadians, St. Lucians, Vincentians and this GOB is chastizing immigration officers for doing their job. Instead of control they are merrily opening our borders to more. All it takes is one crazy planting a bomb in St. Lawrence Gap and we become the Bali of the West. It will take decades to recover.
Do our immigration officials have a security warning list of Trinidadian and Guyanese muslim radicals if they try to enter at our borders? I wonder what happens if Abu Bakr’s henchmen land at our airport, do our security services keep tabs on their activity?
Is anyone monitoring if fundamentalist doctrine is making its way into the Friday prayers at mosques in St. Michael? Is the Ministry of Education monitoring what is being taught to the young minds at the Al-Hudaa Muslim School?
We are so dependent on tourism, all it takes is one bomb to change our way of life.
Get In The Action: Oh, how right you are! But I beg you – don’t give them any more ideas (St. Lawrence Gap, etc.). Bajans are still fooling themselves that “it can’t happen here”, yet many of the things that we’ve been saying all through the years that “can’t happen here” ARE happening here right now. How wonderful it would be if the Chief Immigration Officer could say to Owing, “P…ss off and let me do my job”, but that will never happen unfortunately.
Go to
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6715985.stm
and see what BBC is saying about two of these Caribbean Cuckoo’s being assoc. with our dear Islamic friends at Trinidad’s Jamaat al Mislimeen !!
I love Islam: it’s such a CARING religion, so peaceful so tolerant, so entirely full of spin and bullshiRt, and oh so dangerous in a cutely-schizophrenic kinda way.
Don’t you feel that way about them,too?
All warm and fuzzy..that inner feeling?
No?
——————–
Well, Boys & Girls,
if we weren’t on the map before,
we sure are now!
Thistle
It is very worrying. I travel every few weeks and I see how easy Caricom nationals get into our country. It’s almost a rubber stamp. I fear that our borders are not as secure as we would hope. Can you imagine the tailspin our tourism industry will be in, if they find Abdel Nur hiding in Barbados, with the support of Bajan muslims. It’s not impossible.
Thanks, ‘Plot Thickens’ for the BBC link. I see that the vermin who were arrested for the 1990 coup attempt in Trinidad were released just two years later, in 1992. Is it any wonder that they feel emboldened enough to try, again.
Let’s hope that when they put the bastards away, this time, that they don’t see the light of day again for an extremely long time, if at all, ever!
You never know who is looking for a few extra votes and from whom.
This is one of the reasons we are working in Guyana. We have serious problems over there, and today Stabroek News tells us that 3 of the 4 men are Guyanese.
On the race or religion question, the Beeb goes on to tell us that Jamaat al-Muslimeen seems to be mainly supported by black Muslims. There’s no way the race element of this will be sidestepped in Guyana though, and it will be manna for a lot of misguided people.
I don’t particularly care whether it is a fishy coincidence this comes out in G8 week or not – presumably these guys were going to do it, so it accurately highlights the awful problem we have been discussing.
How on earth can the authorities keep tabs on the vast number of extremists? Just as pertinently, how can we keep on top of them without losing our own liberties – a debate which is presently raging in UK, and has kicked off again this weekend.
Check out this abominable quote in Stabroek:
‘Opposition Leader Robert Corbin […] described Kadir as an outstanding citizen of Linden and Member of Parliament who had led a distinguished career as a civil engineering professional.
Corbin said he was aware the former Member of Parliament was a devout Muslim. “We knew that Mr Kadir always had ties with international Muslim organisations who helped him to carry out activities… and we at the PNCR did not know him ever being involved in any illegal or criminal activities, and we have nothing on record on misbehaviour on the part of Kadir,” Corbin said’
I try and stay out of party politics, but I don’t see much to be proud of there. Religious extremism is a malaise, a sickness of the mind which can be cultivated by a jawdropping variety of factors. It is just a matter of time till Muslim extremists visit another tragedy somewhere.
By the way, nice leader BFP, quite appropriate.
Little Barbados; we are not immune from violence which plagued other countries. We have been lucky and I hope this luck continues.
Every one still remembers that awful September in the USA. Innocent people, including Bajans lost their lives. Since then, travelling has been a nightmare for the ‘true travelling public’. U.K. citizens were still favoured when they reached the shores of the USA.This all changed after the ‘shoe bomber’, Richard Reid.
Citizens in the English caribbean were not regarded as dangerous in comparrison to those of Middle Eastern origins.
This will change now, thanks to those group of gentlemen.
A word of caution!
Those men have not been tried and found guilty in a court of law, yet.
“Thank you, Thistle. I’m opposed to any, or too, many Asians being allowed to emigrate to our country, period because they have no genuine regard for us and will, most certainly, eventually, delight in taking over our country from us, as they do wherever they go . However, my main worry is with the insidious, pernicious, evil muslims who thrive on evil and disharmony.”
“I’ve expressed by disagreement before, with the idea of mulsims living in Bim and a contributor kindly, informed us that daily, more are coming in with all of this emigration from Guyana and elsewhere – in my view, a huge mistake. It’s irrefutable, that wherever muslims go, in number, trouble follows. Nobody can persuade me of the ‘wisdom’ of allowing muslims into our country.”
——————————–
Dear Bimbro,
Thank God (or The Great Pumkin) that you are not in charge of this country. Talk about Xenophobia. I hear you loud and clear: Let’s round up all the Asians and kick ’em out, oh and all the Muslims too!
You appear (to me at least) to be no different from the Whites in the South of the US who would (or still do) make life a living hell for Blacks. Or the Germans and the Jews, back in the day.
As for the East Indians, ever heard of Mahatma Gandhi or the Hindu philosophy? Not all East Indians are muslims, and not all are violent.
Unfortunately, I’m not expert with regards to Islam/Muslims, so I couldn’t tell you what they preach and advocate. If it’s violence and mayhem, then fine, gather them up, meet with them, tell them the rules and regulations in Bim and if they don’t like it, get out, or face the consequences if they break the rules. We don’t want no trouble in Barbados.
Brimbro, you cry and complain about people taking over our country. We ourselves are letting other people take over our country. Our own elected Government allows it to happen, and you want to point the finger? We have only ourselves to blame, not other people. Case in point: Owen & Co. are regularly in bed with the Chinese. Are Chinese Asians okay with you?
I am not pro-religion, nor pro-race. If you’re black, white or pink, Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Martian, you can sit down and have a drink with me and be my friend. I’m not interested in your colour, nor your faith and least of all, your politics. You are a person and I am one, too. Better yet, if you’re a cute girl, I’m even more willing to be your friend. Just don’t force your religion and you beliefs upon me, because I’m not going to force mine on you.
My main point here is that we can’t just put up walls simply because someone is Asian, Black, White or Martian. At the end of the day, we are all living on the same planet and we are all inter-connected. Everyone depends on everyone else and Barbados is no different. We are small island with no resources and a small population. We have to be open-minded, but cautious and careful, obviously.
Save that kind of talk for when Earth is attacked by aliens. Then watch and see how all of us will suddenly unite.
Yours,
The Bystander.
The Bystander:
Be careful…..others have been raked over the coals for that point of view before on this site.
Just a word to the wise.
Some guy up north promised his citizens and the world in general that after invading a certain country/s “the world will be a safer place”. well we’ve now seen how much safer we are.
It seems that when u harmed someone ,the victim has a couple of choices:-turn a blind eye,seek justice through legal means[lawcourts etc] or retaliate to hurt.it seems to me the guy up there chose to harm the wrong people[this time muslims],and those who are sympathetic{u hurt 1 u hurt all doctrine} with them are now trying to retaliate.thats why you see them being attacked/plotted from all corners..
Tell me another thing, where was the “civilized world “when iraq/afghanistan were invaded. u.n. sanctions,penalties etc, no no just turn a blind eye like nothing happened.muslims will obviously see this as an injustice,hence conservative muslims who sit on the fence will be coerced to join the extremists who will attract them with verses/quotes/speeches that enjoin fighting/standing up to/defending against the “enemy”.
Any time there are injustices being done people will always rebel.
I mean even here in bim ,some men burn down their own house if his estanged wife gets to keep it. people chop up one another if they find out that de uder partner was horning them.
If those in power ruled with justice i doubted there would so much anger/hate in this world.
i always remembered what someone told me along time ago when the palestinian vs israeli conflict was the only news where u heard the word terrorist. about the palesti.. .He said….the less they’ve got, the less they’ve got to lose. In my opinion i feel this is the reason we see so many suicide bombers,they see people around them being humilated and say to themselves i maybe next ,so i may as well go down guns blazing blown up whatever than to stamped upon .
In closing, in pirates ofthe caribbean1-2-3 did ya notice the pirates [sparrow bloom kiera] are portrayed as the good guys.we were always taught pirates r bad.
ONE MAN’S TERRORIST IS ANOTHER MAN’S FREEDOM FIGHTER.
so here ‘s a salute to all those ‘terrorists’ like Bussa,simonbolivar,marcusgarvey,frenchresistance, greenpeace?,abe lincon n all those ‘american terrorists’ who fought against the british for their independence in 1776.
re: thank you thistle,im opposed to any………………………
dear mr.bimbro, if u change the word asian with blacks/africans and changed the word muslims with slaves i would’ve thought that u were a british master writing an article in ‘britannia forever’ in 1722 or thereabouts.
Bimbro says that Asians “will, most certainly, eventually, delight in taking over our country from us, as they do wherever they go.”
Care to elaborate on this statement, bimbro, and name any country where Asians have “taken over”…?
To me, this sounds like an opinion based merely on bigotry rather than fact.
So Bimbro, you have no problem with USA and UK, not to mention Hong Kong, Germany etc deporting all Bajan relatives who work and live in those countries earning a decent, valid and highly-contributing living, not to mention in some cases very well representing our Nation?
The authorities might see them as drug peddlers (aka the Yardies) or Jamaat-al-Muslimeen, if your take on it is used as standard procedure worldwide.
Talk about the dark ages!
“The Bystander:
Be careful…..others have been raked over the coals for that point of view before on this site.
Just a word to the wise.”
————————
Dear Chase,
What point of view is that? The one where I don’t care about a person’s colour, creed, religion or politics? The one where I am willing to get along with you, so long as you do my friends, family and myself, no harm and do not try to force your beliefs and religion down my throat, even if you are a Muslim?
I’m going to be raked over the coals for that? If so, then go ahead. BFP and its readers have raked me over the coals in the past when I asked for a link to my little blog. Thank you for the advice, Chase.
This island cannot afford to live in isolation. We are part of the Caribbean and a part of the world. We cannot simply say ban all Asians and think that that will solve everything. Imagine if the Indians did come in their numbers for CWC, how would we deal with that?
Why don’t we ban the ‘BET culture’ as well? All that thug life, gang-banging, 22-inch-chrome-rim nonsense? Maybe the violent crime and murder rate will drop. Maybe.
Oh, and you see that computer/car/TV/electronic gadget you use? That’s made somewhere in Asia. We should stop using those things as well, I mean, if we don’t want ‘their kind’ in Bim, then we shouldn’t use their products either! Bring back the donkey cart, at least road deaths will decrease dramatically.
Let’s kick out the Guyanese too. They’re stealing all of our jobs, right? (wink, wink, sarcasm.) Never mind the fact that we Barbadians refuse to work for those very same jobs because they are ‘beneath us’ and the pay may or may not be to little.
Businesses hire the Guyanese. Do you think they really want to? I don’t know. But if we’re not interested in the work, businesses have to survive and they will find labour elsewhere. Same thing with the US. They can find a cheaper labour pool in Asia, so, in the interest of their bottomlines, they shift.
(sarcastically) Round up all the Guyanese and put them out. Oh, and don’t forget, Bajans rushed to Guyana years ago for the same reasons they rush to us here and now.
Chase, Voltaire said: “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”
Brimbro & Co. are fully entitled to express their view, however dangerous I may think it is (I mean, come on, ban people from entering our country based upon their race, isn’t that extreme?) So I guess other countries should adopt that same position and ban all Caribbean people from coming over.
Round up all those Caribbean citizens, or better yet, direct ties to the Caribbean and deport them! Start with the bajans living in the US/UK. (sarcasm)
It will be a sad, sad day when countries start doing that. The world will revert back to a time when there was hardly any international travel, etc. and citizens will stay in their own countries. I guess I could live with that, so long as the ratio of women to men is favourable towards the men!
Yours,
The Bystander.
Posted this in the wrong place. Apologies, here it is again:
Recent Salafi Manhaj (famous “only kill justly” quote) lecture went to Trinidad also. Barbados secret service, police and Muslim community should be aware, and vigilant at this stage, and work with anti-terrorist groups.
In spite of the fact that we are not racist it is an absolute necessity to ensure radicalism does not penetrate our country, and that includes or local Islamic community.
Here’s a link to show Sunni Salafi link between Bim, Canada and Trinidad. See the tiny Trini flag, Bajan flag, Canada flag and contact names:
http://www.troid.org/
Well, ‘samizdat’, somebody referred earlier to Bim now being owned by the Trini. asians and, in the UK, there’s hardly a business which is n’t owned by Asians which means that they’re the employers which, to all intents and purposes, to me, means that ‘they have taken over’! What does it mean to you?
Bigotry is a term used, far too often, in my view, by people who have nothing much sensible, to say and just want to ‘put down’ the other side, like racist or homophobic.
I’m not interested in insulting people just in FACING the truth.
Rumplestilskin, I’m not aware of any large number of Barbadians, or in fact any, at all, being terrorists, sucicide bombers, and the rest. If I were then I’d prescribe the same remedy for them.
You can’t imagine Bim not being over-run by Asians. Well, I can’t recall ever seeing an Asian while I was living there and in the UK, where I grew up, there were about half a dozen Asians only, in my school of perhaps, a thousand pupils and about one, african. The situation is entirely, reversed now, of course. It just goes to show how limited is the experience of some of you and how, deeply the asian onslaught has penetrated your psyche.
How many black people, especially, west indians, do you suppose are in Asia?
Chase and others, if you’re happy for your country to be run-over by asians, then that’s a matter for you!
Bimbro: Waste of time trying to get some people to accept what you and I know (each time I visit the U.K. I ask myself, “My God, where are the English?”). When this place finally gets taken over, like Guyana over the years, those who welcome Muslims here will hold their heads and bawl (Trini expression!) “How did this happen?” just as the English are asking themselves that question now. What’s worse, as a backlash, the BNP in the U.K. is picking up votes like crazy as you probably know, and that is frightening.
Bimbro:
Just a question.What would you do to stop or control this problem if you had the chance?
Is that an invitation to become PM of Bim, Chase? No, I don’t want to be, anymore. I’m, too, old now….but, I might be open to persuasion – you never, know.
But, were I PM of Bim, I would need to know precisely, the identity of everybody entering Bim and the ethnicity of all proposed immigrants. I would not tolerate an excess of Asians going there, to take over our country and I would be most reluctant to allow, in particular, ANY muslims there, at all. I would also favour banning the religion in Bim, altogether, for starters. That’s only my first policy.:)
Any shops in Bim, still owned by Bajans? It’s only the beginning!
Thanks for your support, ‘Thistle’. It’s nice to speak to somebody who has wider knowledge and experience than some of the folks here seem to do.
Bimbro wrote:
‘in the UK, there’s hardly a business which isn’t owned by Asians’
Thistle wrote:
(each time I visit the U.K. I ask myself, “My God, where are the English?”)
You guys are despicable.
I’m a Brit, of Bajan/Jamaican heritage. I lived and worked in many parts of the UK until relocating to Bim three years ago, and I want readers of BFP unfamiliar with the UK to know that both of you are spouting rubbish.
Of course there are serious race issues in the UK, and some (exclusively urban) areas in London and the Midlands have large “ethnic minority” minority communities.
But to suggest that the UK as a whole is being “taken over” by non-whites/foreigners of any kind is a racist lie – the kind of lie I as a black Brit grew up hearing.
Shame on you both.
“Any shops in Bim, still owned by Bajans? It’s only the beginning”
——————–
Dear Bimbro (and Thistle),
Let me see if I understand you. It’s because of foreigners and Asians in particular, that there is a lack of Barbadian-owned businesses?
I find that hard to believe. We have only ourselves to blame for this situation. Furthermore, if it disgusts you so much, STOP buying from them. That’s like saying it is because of white people that there are no black-owned businesses in Bim.
Blacks are the majority in Bim and have a lot more power than they think they do. To bad Malcolm X isn’t alive and in Bim. But wait, he was a Muslim too, right? Maybe MLK instead.
Go and find 100% Barbadian owned and operated businesses and support them. When you find them, let me know, I’ll support them too! Throw away all your foreign owned goods. Buy Bajan. Make a difference. Ooops, can’t happen. We are dependent on them and they are dependent on us.
What do you think will happen when this fancy gas line between Bim and TT comes online? Doesn’t that scare you too? One of the largest customers is supposed to be BL&P! Our lone supplier of electricity. Yet our Government is still pushing ahead with it. I can see the future headlines now. TT and BB have big fall out, TT cuts supply of natural gas to BB, BB suffers.
I agree 100% with you that there are many non-bajan owned businesses in Bim, but why are you blaming that on outsiders and Asians? Why not do something about it?
Let’s say you become PM. Besides dictating what religions/faiths people can choose (I suppose your religion/race is the only right one, correct?) What will you do to address the business ownership issue?
If I may humbly suggest:
1. You need to start educating Barbadians from young to take risks and to learn to rock the boat! We’ve always played it safe because that is what our parents told us. “Be thankful for what you have…” Rubbish! We have to strive for more and challenge the status quo! We have to get up off of our tails and recognize that the world does not revolve around us!
2. You need to start teaching business and entrepreneurship skills from an early age at school. Our current education only favours professions, lawyer, doctor, engineer, etc. What about business leaders and capitalism? What about learning about economics and how the world works? Or are you content with waiting on God (and the Great Pumpkin) to provide for you? Our educational system just churns out employees for the established businesses in Bim, of which, there are hardly any black owners. (I don’t like the race issue, but it’s valid here.) Where are the learned intellectuals of our time? Hah. Our very own Government intimidates and tries to silence independent thoughts/voices. How can a country truly develop with that sort of foolishness going on?
3. When you’re PM, do something about foreign land ownership. There are some countries that only allow foreigners to lease land, they cannot own it. We need to do that here. You can’t do much about business ownership because then you’ll be messing around with capitalism/markets/etc. Money goes where it is respected and I won’t invest in a country where my money is not respected. Without direct foreign invesetment, BB will lose big. What’s your plan for recovery?
4. Are all Muslims extreme? If not, then is it fair to ban all of them? I see your point though and I am willing to agree with it partially. For the record, I’m not Muslim, nor Christian. I don’t follow any particular religion nor do I support any.
5. Mr. PM, tell us, now that you’ve isolated us from the rest of the world (no Asians, no foreigners, no Trinis, no Guyanese) how do you plan on ensuring that we Barbadians have a sustainable future. One where generations of Barbadians will live in prosperity.
Yours,
The Bystander.
(P.S., BFP, sorry for the length of this comment.)
Well…….I had to ask .
Now that I see you response,I understand exactly where you are coming from,your views and your feelings.
There is no need for a response from me as The Bystander has responded in kind and it would only be a duplicate to his post.
At least we know were you stand on the issue for sure.
bimbro and thistle sound very much like hitler and his rantings about jews taking over germany. the two of them have the right to say what they wish but as far as i am concerned they are disgusting.
like it or not the movement of people is a phenomenon that has been part of history for centuries and nothing can stop it.
This bystander chap nails it for me also Chase.
Thistle is right about the rise of the racist BNP in Britain being frightening though. The worst thing about this, is that its not just loonies who are voting for them; decent people are beginning to vote for them too. Trouble-a-plenty lies down that road.
I can understand the fear about rapidly growing ehnic minorities. When I used to travel from Wales to London, stepping off the train in Paddington station was such an immediate culture shock that it was like stepping into another world for me.
I empathise, and would also like to see Britain drastically reduce immigration pretty sharpish
One thing I would throw into the mix though. Have people seen the projections for mass people migration when global heating starts to bite in a few years time…?
Pause for a moment…
Now tell me, when you read that sentence above, did you assume the problem would be inward migration and you wanted to stop them.. or did you assume it would be Bajans wanting to leave because of deteriorating conditions on the island?
If you have a problem with immigration, the best thing you could do is join an environmental group and start pushing the debate in Barbados.
By the way, great to see Voltaire quoted here! That’s actually one of his better ones, he unfortunately came up with some racist stuff as well, but I put that down to living in unenlightened times ~ which is why I find racism, religious extremism and apathy toward social problems today so difficult to tolerate. We have enough facts before us to come to enlightened conclusions, and inaction means sharing some guilt.
No apologies for the long post.
I said I would end my contributions and I fully intend to do so. However, the use of comparatives like Hitler, and to call people racists and bigots for saying what the facts support is counter productive in finding solutions if there are any at this the 11th hour of a crisis out of control. And the making of which must fall squarely on the shoulders of politicians of all stripes in the Nations involved. Because of similar problems in Canada I felt compelled to contribute this last set of thoughts because of some of the misguided nonsense I am reading!
I cannot speak about the problems in the UK because I do not live there, but I can speak about the problems in Canada especially Toronto and I am using my 50 years of living here to do so. And without prejudice, racism, bigotry or any other such foolishness as motives. There is a saying that goes if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck!
Let me begin by saying 90% of all of our immigrant population are law abiding people, contribute significantly to our great nation, work hard, raise decent children, and live the Canadian dream as all other Canadians do. Then there is the other 10 to 15% who are common thugs, criminals, drug dealers, gun runners, rapists and lowlifes. These are the ones causing mayhem in our country and regrettably but truthfully and the FACTS support this 99.9% are a sub culture of MAINLY black Jamaicans.
Politicians want us to ban guns, control guns, do this do that but what they never face or ask is this. If we could eradicate or deport all of these thugs back to Jamaica our problem would be 99 % solved. Instead of worrying about guns no one asks why are these blacks the only ones using guns? That should be the focus of the problem. If we sent these thugs back to Jamaica where possible our gun crime would be greatly diminished or end!
Thistle who visited Canada said in a response to me what a wonderful country Canada is but then added “Your crime is really bad” what she did not qualify and obviously has the smarts to do so is that our crime is being committed by a sub culture of blacks of Jamaican origin. Without them we would have no or little violent crime.
We, like I suspect many Nations have opened our borders to any and all without proper screening of their characters, integrity etc and we have ended up with what we deserve. The scum of society. Back when I and anyone else emigrated to Canada you had to submit a picture of yourself, along with a complete medical exam, a police report showing you had no criminal record and a letter from your reverend, pastor whatever saying you were a good person. Most of these requirements today are banned as being racist and the results are now obvious to all!
The tragedy of it all is this. The good immigrants of all colors and ethnic background wish this policy was still in effect because they like every other Canadian are sick and fed up with the bloody crime, whining and complaining of these lowlifes.
Who does not like this truth about the situation let me apologize to them.
What amazes me is when these youths get into trouble up here all you hear the mother say is He was a good boy and I know he would not have been doing anything wrong like that to deserve being shot. Yet he has a police record that spans years.
The mothers of these thugs are just as much to blame for the carnage as is their siblings. And everyone asks how can people like this get passports and landed immigrant status? I say ask the damn politicians they brought them in!
WATCH OUT BARBADOS.
They’ve named one terror suspect in Jamaica a month or two ago. Now one in Guyana and one in Trinidad and Tobago. The USA is punishing CARICOM for going along with Chavez…. MARK MY WORDS. the FBI will find— a Bar-bajan soon tooo…..
I predict they will say it’s a muslim somewhere down cheapside… Don’t forget Barbados has an FBI office too so the CIA/FBI can pull it off… They pulled off the bombing of the Cuban airliner off Barbados already in the ’70s….
Dear Bystander, you should n’t use Malcom X to support your case. Was n’t he assassinated by another MUSLIM! That supports my argument, not yours.
I assume that, by now, you’ve realised that I don’t live in Bim, anymore.
I’m not too, worried about the pipeline, ‘By’. I’ve got to assume that, to an extent, Arthur knows what he’s doing. You voted him back two or three times, so I assume that he does. I assume that the Trinis need the custom just as we need the electricity.
I have to accept it when you say that there’re insufficent black-owned businesses, in Bim. I don’t know as I have n’t been there for a very, long time. However, perhaps you could suggest why that is. If I were PM, there would have to be many more. I would absolutely, insist upon it and give black, people all the assistance I possibly, could to set up in business. Absolutely, no asian-takeover in MY Bim!
You would n’t need to worry about my ‘interfering with capitalism’. I’m a confirmed capitalist. I would like to see a great deal more capitalism in Bim but especially, by black people.
It’s ok, I would n’t keep out the world, mainly the muslims and allow in only a certain number of asians. It would probably, still, far exceed the number of us, which they allow into their countries.
R u going to vote for me, now?
‘hitlers’, it’s silly to say that ‘nothing can stop it’. That’s why you can’t emigrate to just any country in the world which you’d like to, or, say, Mexicans to the US, except without extreme difficulty.
I don’t disagree with much of what you say, ‘Gob’, except to say that I’m not impressed by Voltaire’s quote. It takes more than a famous name to impress me. He lived a long time ago, and was n’t in the position which we face, today in Bim and elsewhere.
Looking forward to all your support.
“Dear Bystander, you should n’t use Malcom X to support your case. Was n’t he assassinated by another MUSLIM! That supports my argument, not yours”
——————-
Dear PM Bimbro,
Sorry, my bad. I didn’t realize he was taken out by another Muslim, not that I doubt you or anything like that, but was this really the case, can anyone confirm this for the sake of accuracy? I will also do a little Googling tonight.
——————-
“I have to accept it when you say that there’re insufficent black-owned businesses, in Bim. I don’t know as I have n’t been there for a very, long time. However, perhaps you could suggest why that is. If I were PM, there would have to be many more. I would absolutely, insist upon it and give black, people all the assistance I possibly, could to set up in business. Absolutely, no asian-takeover in MY Bim!
——————-
Dear PM Bimbro,
There are few black-owned businesses because of the following (among other reasons I suspect, but these are, I think, most important:)
(Note to BLP and DLP: WAKE UP! The BTP is on your tail, Bimbro Thistle Party.)
1. You need to start educating Barbadians from young to take risks and to learn to rock the boat! We’ve always played it safe because that is what our parents told us. “Be thankful for what you have…” Rubbish! We have to strive for more and challenge the status quo! We have to get up off of our tails and recognize that the world does not revolve around us!
2. You need to start teaching business and entrepreneurship skills from an early age at school. Our current education only favours professions, lawyer, doctor, engineer, etc. What about business leaders and capitalism? What about learning about economics and how the world works? Or are you content with waiting on God (and the Great Pumpkin) to provide for you? Our educational system just churns out employees for the established businesses in Bim, of which, there are hardly any black owners. (I don’t like the race issue, but it’s valid here.) Where are the learned intellectuals of our time? Hah. Our very own Government intimidates and tries to silence independent thoughts/voices. How can a country truly develop with that sort of foolishness going on?
As for the ‘Asian’ take-over. You have to take the good with the bad. If you limit outside investment in Bim, be prepared for the consequences. We are not self-sufficient and never will be. No country is. Even the big boys need other countries. The US doesn’t have any oil, so they have to deal with the countries that do. Trinidad has oil, but they still need Bim. Bim has a stable economy/politics, so we’re attractive to outsiders.
We are all connected and need each other. Each country does what they do best and trades with those that offer what they can’t produce. As a result, trade between countries (tangible/intangible) will occur and problems will occur as well. Culture clashes, politics, religion, race, etc.
PM Bimbro, keep the Asians out if you want. I can’t vote for you on that. You got my vote for the black-business support, once you reform education and encourage capitalism, entrepreneurship, etc. But remember, just because you’re black doesn’t mean you are entitled to a handout! There are some white businessmen who started with nothing at all and through hard work and sweat, they made it. Why should black people be treated differently? Give everyone an equal footing and let the best man (or woman) win!
As for Voltaire’s quote, it wasn’t my intention to impress anyone by dropping the name. The name means nothing to me as I am far from being well read. I simply liked what he had to say: “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”
Maybe these few words of mine will one day be popular and have great significance: No man is an island, even an island is no longer an island.
Good luck with your platform.
Yours,
The Bystander.
Bimbro: It sounds as if you’re anti-white as well. That’s where we would differ. As regards colour I have absolutely no prejudice whatsoever. If I sound harsh on Muslims it is not because I dislike all Muslims and all Asians – far from it – they are hard working people with business acumen and they know how to save money instead of licking it out on brand name clothes and ghetto blasters and fancy cars. It is Muslim RADICALS that I hate. It would seem that some people on here love them.
Thistle, please quote anything that I’ve said that could be construed as “anti-white”?
All I’ve done is call you (and Bimbro) out on the racist implications of what you say.
As for what you say about “radical” (if by that you mean violently anti-Christian)Muslims, that’s a much more specific and less sweepingly anti-foreigner statement.
And so of course I can agree with you.
As for you Bimbro, and your admission that you haven’t visited Barbados for a very long time: I think many of us on this blog who do live here find the uninformed comments of people like you pretty foolish and inconsequential.
But then again, seems BFP is becoming the net equivalent of Down To Brass Tacks: the home for some silly old men with too much time on their hands…:}
“Bimbro: It sounds as if you’re anti-white as well. That’s where we would differ. As regards colour I have absolutely no prejudice whatsoever. If I sound harsh on Muslims it is not because I dislike all Muslims and all Asians – far from it – they are hard working people with business acumen and they know how to save money instead of licking it out on brand name clothes and ghetto blasters and fancy cars. It is Muslim RADICALS that I hate. It would seem that some people on here love them.”
————————
Dear Thistle,
Please allow me to make one thing crystal clear to Bimbro and yourself:
I do not support nor endorse, in any form or fashion, the policies and/or philosophies/beliefs of extreme Muslims, or any other religious/political/etc extreme group.
So if you were trying to imply that I am one of the people on BFP that love Muslim extremists, you are sadly mistaken.
Understand me clearly, if you are an extreme Muslim and/or you are looking to do evil towards innocent people, friends/family and myself, then I will look upon you in a totally different light and let the Bimbro’s and the Thistle’s of the world deal with you accordingly. I don’t care if you’re Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Martian or George Michael.
So, Thistle, I hope you and I now have a CHRISTIAN understanding.
Get it? LOL! 🙂
Yours,
The Bystander.
Samizdat: I think you’ve got your knickers in a twist! I was not referring to anything you stated, or I would have mentioned your name. I said to Bimbro “It sounds as if you’re (Bimbro) anti-white as well” (as well as being anti-Jamaican and anti-Muslim.) So cool it, my bro. Yes, it is radical Muslims I fear – not peaceful ones. I just wish the peaceful ones would speak out against the radicals, but they won’t, which makes you think they’re in agreement with the terrorists.
Bystander: I have no problem with having a CHRISTIAN understanding with you, but I’m wondering just how CHRISTIAN it can be on your side, when you constantly refer to God as The Great Pumpkin?
Work hard 24/7.
Spend minimally, and that on business enhancing necessary items.
Cultivate like minded achievers.
Stay focussed on the goal of independence.
Success for anyone who will take this discipline is 5 years down the road.
If you really want it, it is waiting for all the deserving, whatever colour.
It will never be handed on a plate, it’s too hard earned.
There are no short cuts for the man at the bottom.
Pride and Industry!
“Bystander: I have no problem with having a CHRISTIAN understanding with you, but I’m wondering just how CHRISTIAN it can be on your side, when you constantly refer to God as The Great Pumpkin”
————————–
Dear Thistle,
Kindly read through all of my comments from Day 1.
I always post (unless there was a typo):
God OR The Great Pumpkin.
God AND The Great Pumpkin.
I DO NOT refer to God AS The Great Pumkin.
Look at my posts for today. Do a search for ‘pumpkin’ in your browser and see what word I use.
Stop with the Spin! Sheesh.
Yours,
The Bystander.
SINCE 911 I BELIEVE ABOUT 10% OF WHAT AMERICA HAS TO SAY. THIS TO ME IS ANOTHER PLOY TO DIVERT ATTENTION AND ALLOW THEM TO HAVE A RENEWED FOCUS ON THE WAR ON TERROR. POOR CARRIBEAN!!!!
“Work hard 24/7.
Spend minimally, and that on business enhancing necessary items.
Cultivate like minded achievers.
Stay focussed on the goal of independence.
Success for anyone who will take this discipline is 5 years down the road.
If you really want it, it is waiting for all the deserving, whatever colour.
It will never be handed on a plate, it’s too hard earned.
There are no short cuts for the man at the bottom.
Pride and Industry!”
——————
Dear Snowflake,
Well said! No arguement there. Full agreement.
Yours,
The Bystander.
Farmer:
I too share your view.
With all the lies about Iraq,I have a hard time believing anything the Americans say now.
What I find coincidental is that this has come at a time when Hugo Chavez and South America are becoming a thorn in America’s side.
One has to be careful,this could be a ploy to threaten the Caribbean or hold us to ransom for their own agendas.
Remember when we didn’t sign the first shiprider agreement..our airport got a failing grade.I just hope we are not to be used as pawns in their games.
Pingback: An Inconvenient Truth now showing(?) in Barbados « The Bystander
Ah, my bad Thistle. A stupid misreading on my part. Sorry dude.
This may well be another piece of mis information generated by the US administration to get more sympathy or reason for starting another war, Bush at his best, I have little or not trush in anything american since 9/11 they are dishonest as ever.
trust
I second that emotion or third it ( whichever). This whole thing is just a little too convenient . All of a sudden after all the World Cup ‘security ‘ has been put in place , we have this turning up ‘proving’ to us that we did the right thing just in time .Phew.Very smooth . Why go back to New York again , obviously the security would be so much more tighter than other places. My theory is that the string pullers( whomever they may be (and i think i have a pretty good idea , they are the ones that benefit most from all this smoke and mirrors stuff) feel that this will bring back memories of 911 and hence the fear factor will be that much greater and the hence the cry for even more’security’ . Read into that further erosion of our rights , we need to be ‘protected’ you know.
Is anybody else deserving of banning from Bim?
I aint saying, nuttun!:)
Visa regulations might need tightening, though.
Bystander, I’m not anti-white. However, I am, pro-black.
North Star, I have just seen and read your post of yesterday at 7.23 pm and would like you to know that I, 100% agree with everything which you said. The situation in the UK is even worse, and you probably, can’t even imagine how it could be worse, but believe me, it can.
However, I don’t propose to say anything further on that subject, at the moment, because we’ve already got somebody ‘accusing me’ and I had n’t said, anything, yet.
Don’t stop your contributions, North Star. The more light shed on this and other problems, the better.
I, so, admire your guts in speaking-out. It’s amazing how cowardly, our people can be about recognising the truth.
Bystander, you said; As for the ‘Asian’ take-over. You have to take the good with the bad. If you limit outside investment in Bim, be prepared for the consequences. We are not self-sufficient and never will be. No country is. Even the big boys need other countries. The US doesn’t have any oil, so they have to deal with the countries that do. Trinidad has oil, but they still need Bim. Bim has a stable economy/politics, so we’re attractive to outsiders.
Don’t worry, Bystander. Clico can stay! I think they’re Trinidadian, i.e. East Asian.:)
like catholicism .and colonialism each has created its bug bear, freedom is only a word touted by the powerful, we none of us are free,just look at our supermarket shelves and you will know for sure we are not free. heh heh heh ,..
as for those so called terrorist i will wait and see .remember us election is next year, innocent until proven guilty . that is the American way is it not?
In politics, in our personal lives, it’s the same terrible thing. You get busted as a liar, and no-one will believe you ever again – even if this time you’re telling the truth.
Just like the little boy who stupidly cried “wolf”. When the snarling beast really was about to devour him and he cried out for help: no-one believed him.
Until it was too late…
Who really believes that there are terrorists in the Caribbean??? What are they going to hit??? Seriously. If terrorists made it into the Western hemisphere I telling you they are not going to go for a small country like Barbados, those terrorist would go str8 for the US border and trying and sneak across…. What they gon hit in Barbados? Some ole piece of American owned gas station or something? Com’mon now they would go for big targets in the US.
Plus the USA already did this script… But this is Patrick Mannings fault…. Manning stepped out of his place saying that Atlantic LNG is soo “importaint” to the USA, and he say how little Trinidad in this hemisphere is providing Energy Security to the USA during the Iraq war… And all kinda thing. And how Manning not only wants to expand Atlantic LNG in T&T ( http://www.atlanticlng.com/ ) But—- firstly he say he want to build a gas pipeline going to Guadeloupe and Martinique first and after that… (Because those two have a good ratio betwen 1) distance of pipeline and 2) amount of population.) Then he wants to extend it further heading towards St. Kitts and Montserrat where it starts to become expansive to build to however past there it becomes less expensive as it comes Dominican Republic (with 7 million people) Haiti with 8 million. Or Puerto Rico… But THEN he said he wants it to land either in the Bahamas and goto Florida OR he wants it to goto Cuba and then land in Miami where it would tie into the US national grid just like Canada’s pipeline does. But besides that plan Manning also suggested that he wanted to build an LNG plant off the coast of Louisiana….
That was when the US jointly found Trinidadian “Terrorists” up in Canada…
Then Manning said LNG plans in the US again…
So then the US found—- those “Trini terrorists” a couple years ago in Florida…. Juss in time for US elections…
And now Manning is moving forward on his pipeline… The Caribbean is the only region in the world that has ignored Bush’s warnings. (On the ICC, On Chavez (Backing Chavez for the UN seat), On PetroCaribe, On Iraq, and NOW the uppity Prime Minister from down de bottom of de Caribbean gon move forward and build the pipeline in we face to spread development in other countries working with Venezuela????)
The USA’s position…. That’s it….. put out a P.R. story soo damning it’ll force International business to flee. And give tourists the idea that terrorists are in the Caribbean and to stop visiting dey… And Voila… Terrorists now supposedly in Guyana and T&T…
It is sad when a Government’s credibility is so worn that we can be so cynical.
US foreign policy has been so helter-skelter that it has ruined perceptions of the US for many.
The ‘conservative media-machine’ did a job on Clinton, spend a load to destroy him.
Clinton had the world at USA’s fingertips, he had peace internationally for US, he ‘did’ one humanitarian war in Bosnia (to prevent the slaughter of Muslims by Christians), which US came out of quickly and effectively, US cosmopolitan cities loved him (check the voting demographics when he lost) , there was a budget surplus.
But, he was depicted as a terrible President by the conservative media and effectively ‘neutralised’.
Under Bush, USA has not yet found Bin Laden nor Al-Zawahiri the brains behind Al-Quaeda, Iraq is about five to ten years from some resolution to its civil war, it looks like the Afghanistan government will either have to fight the Taliban again eventually or lose control and on top of that there is a massive budget deficit, then also the thousands of American lives lost in Iraq and the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives also lost.
At least Haliburton has not suffered financially.
But USA has suffered. At the end of 911 the USA had the world’s sympathy. But recent US foreign policy has squandered the goodwill built by Clinton and of all right thinking, reasonable persons who sympathised after 911.
No one supports terrorism and indeed abhors such activities, but the folly of a roughshod attitude which ‘labels all as the few’ is a misdirected approach which as an example has resulted in thousands of US soldiers and a few hundred thousand Iraqi’s dead and has not helped the cause, not to mention ignoring the United Nations at the beginning, thus losing able support.
The few in the Caribbean are extremists, it is wrong to label persons whether Muslim, Christian, Hindu whatever.
Extremists need to be dealt with and Trinidad dealt with the Muslimeen incorrectly from the beginning. How can you ‘pardon’ people in a coup who committed murder and the ‘pardon’ was achieved from the then President while a gun was to the PM’s head?
The should all still be in jail, full stop. One cannot pander to extremists, they must be dealt with harshly.
The evidence of an extremist root in Barbados is there.
Many Bajans show racism against Muslims; and many Bajans have traditionally been racist against Americans (continue to read above), and many Bajans are racist against Guyanese, Indians, Jews; and lots of other minority groups.
Will Barbados ignore the growth of its own Islamic Extremism (also very dangerously supremacist and racist/fascist in itself)?
How long will Barbados continue to use its own racism as a blindfold to ignore these things?
North Star: I’m glad you made that valuable contribution before you exit this blog (which I hope you won’t). No need to comment on what you said because it was comprehensive and well-said. However, as you will note, there are some left-wing loonies on here who would have one believe otherwise. The latest rubbish they’re spouting is that the Kennedy Airport averted disaster was simply a plot by the FBI and Bush to target the Caribbean and to punish us (not sure for what). It is well-known that most Caribbean governments have friendly relations with Cuba, and have had for years, so why aren’t we punished for that on an on-going basis, then? Why pick now? The left-wing loonies would also have you believe that Bush had the twin towers blown up too! Pathetic, isn’t it. (I’m waiting for the lashes, cos they’ll come)
“Bystander, I’m not anti-white. However, I am, pro-black.”
———————
Dear Bimbro,
I never said you were anti-white. This is what I said:
“PM Bimbro, keep the Asians out if you want. I can’t vote for you on that. You got my vote for the black-business support, once you reform education and encourage capitalism, entrepreneurship, etc. But remember, just because you’re black doesn’t mean you are entitled to a handout! There are some white businessmen who started with nothing at all and through hard work and sweat, they made it. Why should black people be treated differently? Give everyone an equal footing and let the best man (or woman) win!”
You have me mixed-up with Thistle who said:
“Bimbro: It sounds as if you’re anti-white as well. That’s where we would differ.”
Search the web page for yourself and check the comments properly.
A few comments ago, Thistle was telling me that I refer to God AS The Great Pumpkin when clearly, if he had spent the time to search, he would see that I always say (unless there was a typo) God AND The Great Pumpkin (i.e., two different entities) or God OR The Great Pumpkin (here again, two different entities.)
Come on guys, learn to use the ‘search’ function of your browser and get your facts straight before you starting accusing people of something they never said.
Yours,
The Bystander.
(P.S., PM Bimbro, glad to see that you have some more company i.e., North Star. More discussion, debate and opposing views, is always good.)
The Bystander: I stand corrected – TWICE. My mistake. Yes, yes, yes, God OR the Great Pumpkin/God AND …… etc. (I know you’re dying for me ask WHO is the G.P., but you know what? I couldn’t care less.) Enough already. Sheesh ….
Who or What is the Great Pumpkin??
I dont know about you Thistle but I am curious.
The Bystander:
Is this what you refer to when you say the Great Pumpkin?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Pumpkin
🙂
“The Bystander: I stand corrected – TWICE. My mistake. Yes, yes, yes, God OR the Great Pumpkin/God AND …… etc. (I know you’re dying for me ask WHO is the G.P., but you know what? I couldn’t care less.) Enough already. Sheesh ….”
——————
Dear Thistle,
Now, now. Don’t hate me because I believe in The Great Pumpkin. Just kidding. 🙂
Chase found a good link (thanks Chase, you hit the nail right on the head!)
Behold, The Great Pumpkin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Pumpkin
Yes, I am a Charlie Brown/Snoopy fan.
Yours,
The Bystander.
Thistle
I have observed the points you have brought to my attention and do not take them lightly and that is why I do not really want to participate in this Blog because some and who do and have every right to their opinions seem to be living in a world of their own and in denial.
With terrorist being the most hated, hunted and killed peoples in the world why may I ask that the Caribbean region should be exempt from these people plotting with extremist in that region to blow up the gas and pipelines in NY as being claimed to be the case. Why is this so hard to understand and I will give you one of many points that can be made to show why!
Terrorist are smart people and may have believed that the Caribbean would be the last place the FBI or any other Intelligence Agency would suspect AL Qaieda to go and recruit terrorists to do their evil job. Why is it always that Bush the FBI and the bad USA are behind screwing the world 24/7?
Yes Bush invaded Iraq wrongly as it turned out there were no weapons of mass destruction but having said that the threat, violent acts and presence of Terrorists have been felt all over the world and not just in the USA and this has been more than proven. They blew up buses in London, they hit Pakistan, Russia, Italy to mention but a few so they are not only targeting the USA. What some on this Blog is suggesting is nothing short of ignorance not because they are left wing. Is it the USA, Bush and the FBI blowing up all of these other targets too?
Look at what happened in Grenada a decade or so ago. Look at what happened in Barbados territorial air space with Cubana Airlines. Trinidad, Guyana etc. Political insanity is all around us including the Caribbean and so is radical extremists.
Anyway I will let you folk solve the problems of the world but this is what strikes me as odd. Why is it when any of the Nations in the Caribbean get into trouble they always call on the USA, Canada and the UK to help them. Maybe seeing as how they have become so close to their brother Castro and the Chinese Nation they are the ones they should now ask for help and financial assistance and leave us barbaric Nations alone. After all the peoples of Cuba and China love the humanitarian, Democratic ways of their leaders and countries dont they, or am I wrong?
Hi Bystander and others, sorry for that earlier error Bystander – it was n’t an accusation so much as a reply by me to a question asked.
I’m still waiting to hear if anybody else should be banned from Bim. I believe so, but will ‘hold-fire’ on that one, for now.
North Star, I well understand your frustration with our people. I’ve encountered it before. As you said, they’d rather live in a dream-world.
I remember so well, during ‘the first’, cold war – looks like another’s just about to begin – how these commi-supporting people and countries when anything went wrong, suffered natural disaster etc. – would always run to the US or free West for aid. I can hardly, ever remember the great communist master, the USSR, offering them aid, but they could n’t wait to stab the US in the back!
I think it takes courage to be honestly, critical – courage which most people don’t have. For them, it’s far easier just to follow the pack, like sheep.
Words like stupidity and ingratitude, come to mind.
[SNIP]How can you ‘pardon’ people in a coup who committed murder and the ‘pardon’ was achieved from the then President while a gun was to the PM’s head?
The should all still be in jail, full stop. One cannot pander to extremists, they must be dealt with harshly.
[end SNIP]
It was the British Privy Council that made that decision to pardon the members of the Al Jamaat which overthrew the Trinidad Government in the 1990 coup attack. The British Privy Council ruled in their favour even though that same Al Jamaat was holding people hostage in the parliament at the time and forced the government to sign that pardon (under duress) in order to not kill anymore members of parliament…. They also took over Trinidad’s state owned broadcasting station too some how it was good enough for the British law lords… And they let all off the hook…. Because after that coup was over, many in Trinidad wanted every last one of them to hang…. Of Trinidadians had their way as Sugar Aloes sang they would have “pop their neck”….
That should have been [If] Trinidadians had their way as Sugar Aloes sang– they would have “popped their neck”….
Re: North Star
June 5th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Terrorism hapends where it does for a purpose or reason it doesn’t just happen.
Do you know the actual history of Al Qaeda? Those that do KNEW Saddam wasn’t “Funding them” as Bush said because they were enemies. Saddam would have though Al Qaeda was a threat to his regime because Al Qaeda wanted to topple him.
Al Qaeda was the United State’s answer to the Russians(Commies) trying to take over Afghanistan. The United States did not want Caspian Sea oil falling into the hands of Russia. So the CIA trained Al Qaeda out in Utah for months and after training returned them to Afghanistan with US war tactical training. (That is why the United States can’t defeat Al Qaeda.) Because Al Qaeda knows how the US thinks and the US- fighting Al Qaeda is like the US going after a low budget of itself.
Al Qaeda was suprised when they actually threw the soviets out of Afghanistan and they decided they would over throw Israel, and restore it to the Palestinians. Especially the Palestianians displaced after informal creation of Israel in the 1920’s and formal creation of it in the late 1940s. And the other doctorine Al Qaeda recruits on according to the CIA is they want to overthrow the “Corrupt” regimes in the middle east which they claim are keeping muslims poor and subservient to America which they claim is sqaundering the oil wealth of the middle east.
That’s how it was born. Once the US started to prop up Israel and the royal families in the middle east. (Especially in Saudie Arabia) they turned their attention on financially buckling the United States.
Since then Islamic extremists have come up with new ideas. Al Jamaat believed they could create the first– Islamic republic in the Americas through brute force. They saw the PNM and the UNC fighting and Squabling and the seized the moment overthrew the govenment, killed several MPs in the Red House, burned down the main police station in Port of Spain and took over the state owned TV.
I don’t believe Al Qaeda is in the Caribbean. They have however started to penetrate into Africa offering money in exchange for people to carry out their attacks. They piggy back onto the instability there where they can comfortably grow and recruit. They’re also in south east Asia. (In places like Bali) where that last big attack was because the Philippines, Indonesia, Sri Lanka.. All around dey— those are all extremist Islamic hotbeds. Those countries have been having civil war for years with Islamic extremists.
Australia recently has been a target because they want to get AU out of Iraq. Spain was a target because they wanted to get Spain out of Iraq(which they did succeed at.)
Barbados has not ruffeled Al Qaeda’s feathers and has not purposely given them a reason to strike luckally so Barbados prob. wont be a target. Also the good thing about Barbados is it so far has been largely isolated from the terrorists outside of the hemisphere.
Historically for persons to fly from the old world to the new they needed to pass through Europe. The good thing about that in this case is the EU and the USA share no fly lists. Any terrorists in Africa, Europe, Asia etc. that wanted to get to the Caribbean had to go through Europe, Canada, or the United States itself. Terrorists en-route would be taken out coming from Europe. As you may have noticed, any time a terrorist has been on the plane coming from Europe they turn that plane around, land it… And take the person off. So to get to Barbados they can’t get past that barrier. Venezuela has slightly changed that by having direct flights between Caracas and Tehran, Iran now though. There was a report somewhere that Iran wanted to have some Iranians in Venezuela that if the USA attacks Iran those Iranians would do a slow march towards the Mexico border where they would try to sneak into the USA to carry out attacks themselves so that means it is less probable that they would goto Barbados which is expensive and doesn’t have much US intrests vs. them trying to go directly for their goal….. Their goal is to undermine the US economy, not Barbados’ so there would be little incentive for them to flock to Barbados. The US regards the Caribbean as their sphere of influence and you can bet any extremists setting up in the Caribbean would get the crap bombed out of them plus they would ethnically stick out like a sore thumb…. Plus the FBI is in Barbados their attache office I think???? The terrorists would literally be putting their foot in the lions mouth to run to Barbados. I don’t think it’s a target IMHO.
Mr. Payne you are obviously becoming a pain in the anal canal to many on this blog because of your way out crap to justify that the suspected terrorists captured in the Caribbean is a hoax or that it is a plot by the FBI.
This nonsense is unworthy of a response because it is gibberish and has no relevancy to what I have said. I have not defended Bush for invading Iraq I have merely stuck to the relevancy that terrorists can and will use any Nation to carry out attacks.
Terrorists and Terrorism can and will strike anywhere in the world as we have already seen. Therefore what makes the Caribbean immune from them using that area? If your argument was sensible why did CWC even worry about the elaborate details they put into place to protect against a terrorist attack?
The very people who blew up the Twin Towers did it right under the noses of the Americans. They were in the USA, trained in the USA and committed their act with precision and without warning.
Believe what you wish as that is your prerogative but do not insult my intelligence with BS.
Terrorist have served notice they will attack and kill anyone trying to put a stop to their cowardice. And no one is immune! These people are the true racists of the world they hate Jews, the teachings and Governments of the Free Western Democracies and even their own country and they kill their own people with impunity.
They are also controlling chauvinist pigs whose women have no rights or cannot have opinions of their own without being abused. They should all be nuked but most live and hide under rocks because they are gutless
hOW IS IT THAT IN ALL OTHER SECTIONS OF THE PRESS IT WAS STATED THAT THE ACCUSED TERRORIST IN THE JFK PLOT WERE MUSLIMS,AND HERE U R STATING THAT THEY ARE OF ANOTHER RELIGIOUS PERSUASION WHICH IS IT?
Advent Glory
I do not know who you are addressing your question to? In case it applies to my latest submission where did I say what “religious” persuastion did anyone belong to. I said Terrorists did I not? I doubt all terrorsists are from the same or identical religious group/s.
Whether the ones involved with JFk are Muslims or not what difference does it make? A terrorist is a terrorist with one intent!
As a matter of fact during the Iraq war I think if I am not mistaken an American was caught who claimed he converted to Islam tofight the USA.
According to the left-wing loonies, the Caribbean suspected terrorists aren’t terrorists at all – it’s just a plot by Bush et al. Read what a relative of one of the suspects wrote about him in Caribbean 360 (www.caribbean360.com ) today.
North Star: “They were in the USA, trained in the USA and committed their act with precision and without warning.
Believe what you wish as that is your prerogative but do not insult my intelligence with BS.”
Me:
Simple timeline on Al Qaeda history.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban-time.html
You can also refer to the National Geographic films on 9/11 where they’ve outlined the U.S.-CIA’s training of the Taliban before 9/11. As have countless other sources likewise documented. The United States Government even acknowledges their past training of the Taliban and how they turned on America.
Actually very many of them were from outside the country and flew in just before 9/11. Mohammad Attah the soo called “master mind” passed through the state of Maine just that morning to Boston, were he hooked up with the rest and boarded the plane. His flight to Maine was from Canada where he had just got off a Trans-Atlantic flight from Europe.
( http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inside911/index.html )
P.S. have you started building your anti-terrorism bunker yet if you dont mind me axe’n? U seem to believe the hype? Remember not to stand up in any bare canefield the terrorists might spot you..
Have you noticed? France did not side with the USA and they have MILLIONS of muslims yet no attacks. Germany likewise? Terrorists have targets and they go after those targets. The very second Denmark sides with the USA their embassy gets rocked in response. Yeah- man that was a pure coincidence right?
I just say it is weird that 2 times before the USA has led a big hoopla of running up and down looking for soo called “Trini terrorists” and both times so far they had to let them go for lack of evidence.
You doan remember the bunch they catch about the Sears Tower plot too??? and the FBI’s crack down on a next set in Toronto?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-06-03-toronto-terror-suspects_x.htm
I don’t support any terrorists! All I say is the United States created the beast now they can’t control it. If it was Barbados that created it and if Barbados was a target I would have said shame on Barbados for creating it. It have nuffin to do with any anti americanism.
North Star: Therefore what makes the Caribbean immune from them using that area? If your argument was sensible why did CWC even worry about the elaborate details they put into place to protect against a terrorist attack?
Me: What are they going to attack? What will they accomplish??? The USA made up all this gibbrish about
North Star: Terrorists and Terrorism can and will strike anywhere in the world as we have already seen.
Me: Like where???? Name a place they targeted that was not political target or an already established base of instability.
North Star:The very people who blew up the Twin Towers did it right under the noses of the Americans. They were in the USA, trained in the USA and committed their act with precision and without warning.
Me: On a building that symbolises U.S. money, influence and power. They hit that… They hit the pentagon and they were aiming for the White House so the story goes. All targets that represent something. They weren’t planning to hit some random building or else they probably would have hit somewhere right here in Boston… They took off from here….
North Star:
For someone who said he was finished with this blog ,dont you think you are being harsh on one who speaks his mind?
You let the words of others stop you from expressing your right to free speech….does not say much for you.
I have been chastised on this blog before but only the moderators can stop me from blogging.Maybe you are too thin skinned on certain issues.
Your contribution to this blog helps to create balance, so why would you let your frustrations of other peoples’ views stop you from making yours..isnt this the reason for these blogs?
I happen to agree with some of what J.Payne has to say…..but I also agree with some of what you have to say,therefore as far as I am concerned ,now it up to me to sort out yours,his and mine ,in order to come to some understanding as to the real truth.
Come now…….behave like men and keep blogging….how am I to be educated …you sure as hell dont learn this in school. 🙂
Chase I agree with you it has been the long goodbye that has now ended. How is that?
That is not good but do what make you feel happy.
All the best.
I am pleased North Star has left, this time for good, no more Frank Sinatra’s.
I love BFP for setting ideas free, and North Star was politically correctly stifling.
J Payne, I, a free thinker, have sympathy with most of your views,
most of which, I suspect, are unacceptable to BFP moderators, bigotted as they are to their specific agenda.
That is their right on their own blog, and notwithstanding their foibles, we would be poorer without this BFP safety valve.
The above post is not Anonymous, it is Straight talking.
Were the exploded Africans deserving of terrorism?
Were the Balinese guilty of a crime?
Were the London tube riders legitimate targets?
Were the Madrid bombings righteous?
Selective and convenient memory, and justifiable to some writers?
Were the grasshoppers who flew out the windows of the World Trade Centre escaping heat, to their deaths below, deserving of that punishment? The fire fighters? The general and restaurant workers? The rest? Just who was killed who deserved it? Were the people in World Trade Centre all Americans? Did these people resemble a legitimate target to someone?
Were the 24 people killed in the Jamaat coup in Trinidad guilty of a crime, and deserving of death?
Was the son who was “shot down in the street and died” in Jamaica the true wages of his own sin, or someone else’s?
For those who hate, for those who seek justification for non-pursuance of peace, for those who believe themselves better than others, in Barbados and anywhere around the world, keep laughing when your most hated group suffers….. until it happens to someone close to you and your family.
There are those of us who have spent their lives hoping, waiting and even praying………..for peace.
It is a duty today to remind you and to warn you of the dangers to our local communities so that the reasonable among us may prevent YOUR (yes YOUR) respective violences from penetrating our society.
What can you say and do to stop this? Sometimes it appears there are more insane ones among us than sane.
And that is another reason why this little silly blog is relevant.
For years I read the garbage printed above in the Nation, Advocate, and heard it from those younger than myself, and from the elders, many so-called respected ones of our society. And heard it from my racist teachers. And in some of the churches. As the Lord is my witness I even heard it from my own mouth.
Until I realised that it wasn’t me, it was you.
Some of you think you know a lot? There are many here among us who are entirely capable of no balanced, logical thought whatsoever!
What of those innocents on the Air Cuba flight? Where are the alleged terrorists being harbored? The USA is under pressure to extradite a man or men wanted for the bombing of a passenger plane and so they turn the pressure around to us extraditing men that talked about bombing.
Instead of bending over backwards to disown extremism and kissing the back side of Bush, our leaders should agree to extradite these suspects so long as the US extradites the Cubana airline bomber suspect, or is government sponsored murder of civilians not considered terrorism?
Peace
It is really amazing when anyone says anything about the USA how you are branded.
If only they would stop being so hypocritical for once and let the truth be known.
Our Caribbean leaders are to hand over these so called terrorists,yet still Luis Podosa walks around a free man in the USA.How many innocent people,including Guyanese did he kill?
Why not a swap?Is it legal to extradite a man who has already been deported.
Are we going to take everything the US say as the gospel?
Some people are ready to ridicule you as soon as you have to question anything ,then accuse you of being left-wing (another american term).
There are always 2 side of the coin…it is in us to look at both,some may not like it as it messes up their agendas, but most of us will.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm
Exactly. Creating terrorists in any fashion does nothing but pushes global extermism to new heights until it becomes out of control.
But look at this now….
—-
Article: US Diplomat : Trinidad no terrorism hotbed
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:26:00
Link: http://www.cananews.net/news/131/ARTICLE/11528/2007-06-05.html
“PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad, CMC – The United States Monday denied international media reports that oil rich Trinidad and Tobago is a “hotbed for terrorism” following the arrest of three Caribbean born nationals on charges linked to a plot to bomb the JFK International airport in New York over the weekend.”
[ . . . ]
The statement said that the US diplomat “gave the assurance following concerns expressed to the Prime Minister that the current climate surrounding the issue of international terrorism leaves the door open for much mis-representation about Trinidad and Tobago.
“Ambassador Austin attributed any negative representation of Trinidad and Tobago in this matter to ‘false conclusions being drawn based on a paucity of information’ and also a lack of understanding of the complexity of the issue on the part of the international media”.
[ . . . ]
—-
For as-much of a “MAJOR threat” as the JFK “plot” was? the US is now awfuly quick to assure Trinidad’s Prime Minister that their country is not a terrorist hotbed????
Did they just need to incite some panic on the fly yet again? Because this would be the third time Trinis were targeted and nothing found. I’m going to let the investigation continue and wait for the results because afterall maybe the 3rd time they’ll find something. *smirk*
I just find it odd how the USA could make the assertion only one— week afterwards that Trinidad isn’t a hotbed for terrorists… As they sometimes say… That’s not what you were claiming a week ago.
North Star, my dear fellow, don’t let that fu**er J. Payne stop you from posting. I’ve been reading some of his contributions and frankly, they sound like so much BS to me that I can’t be bothered to read them all. As I’ve said before on here, “it’s easy to criticise, far more courageous to stand up for justice and decency”. I fully, agree with everything that you’ve said. Let the muslims and terrorists f***-off and I FULLY, AGREE WITH THE US invading Iraq. The dissenters here, would too, if they’d been one of the many victims of the evil, dictator.
Don’t listen to the shi*s, North Star. You’ve got a right to express your opinion and you stay and do so, if you’d like to. I frankly, enjoy reading your posts because I can see that there’s a man with intelligence, experience, guts and honesty.
Frankly, you get these ‘internet-bullies’ on every forum which is n’t monitored and controlled, really carefully. They’re like bullies in life, normally. They can’t seem to help it and should be dealt with. I’ve no time at all for bullies and admire your courage in standing up to him/them. For the monitors of this forum to allow them to succeed is only to the detriment of the forum and annuls the purpose of the blog which is to facilitate, FREE SPEECH.
Chase, I know that you mean well in advising the two to ‘behave like men’ but ‘behaving like men’ has nothing to do with it. Do you mean that is normal and manly, for a man to be rude and bullying. Well, it may be for you and the men to whom you’re accustomed but I don’t see why it should be. If you ask me, some enlightening of your attitude is required there.
Chase, if North Star has gone and I hope that he has n’t, in fact I’M HERE AND NOW INVITING HIM TO RETURN, whether he always agree with me or not, I’M SURE THAT HE WON’T HAVE BEEN ‘HAPPY’ TO GO, as you intimated. Bullies should not be encouraged and in fact, I wish that the contollers of this blog WOULD BAN THEM. NOT BANNING THEM DOES NOT HELP THE FREE FLOW OF DISCUSSION AND INFORMATION, THE REASON FOR WHICH THIS BLOG WAS SET UP!
Hello Maat and good morning
Are you possibly Muslim and Bajan? How come not one single Bajan Muslim will address the forum and say what the Muslim community is doing against Salafi Manhaj types? Do you know who this character actually is? Are we acting locally, or are we acting globally and ignoring the local?
Hello all, and good morning. Are local Americans extremist candidates?
Why didn’t Barbados hand over Ron Biggs for extradition? Does this make Barbados a legitimate terrorist target for those who did not get his extradition?
Does the non-extradition of a possible (probable?) Cuban terrorist make Americans a legitimate terrorist target for wicked people that some of us admire?
Bimbro:
I really dont get your point.Right at this moment it is you who sounds like the bully.It is you who is cussing ,ranting and raving (probably frothing at the mouth).
I said ,after asking North Star to return,that if it is his wish…then do what makes him happy as we all do as men.Going was his choice.Why should others be banned because you dont agree with them?
The free flow of discussion as you described would be impossible if only one view is allowed,if we all agreed on the same issues ,what would be the point of discussion?
At some point all of us are rude on this blog but who gives anyone the right to think that they are better than others,
Tell me which part of my attitude needs enlightening and I will surely oblige…..but remember..I too will ask of you…can you deal with that?
—————————————————————————————————-
I FULLY, AGREE WITH THE US invading Iraq. The dissenters here, would too, if they’d been one of the many victims of the evil, dictator.
My question to you on this is simply,with the invasion and execution of the said dictator,has things improved in Iraq after 4 years?
Go check for yourself and see that even the ones who were under the dictator’s rule are still suffering.
Do not let us all get too worked up about these charges as we have seen the almighty USA can be a lot of huff and no puff most of the time but will bend the facts to get a charge going.
Luis Podosa really should be in jail somewhere after his crime but instead because he was a CIA operative he is shielded by the USA from court action what do we have here DOUBLE STANDARDS.
Educationanlists:
The decision by Barbados not to hand over Ronald Biggs to Britain was made by The supreme Court after the hearings concluded.
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/barbados/index.html?offset=60&
The fact that he was kidnapped from Brazil under a ‘citizens’ arrest for money most likely played into his favour.
Also ,to compare a man who played a minor role in a robbery to one who plotted and carried out (with the full knowledge of the US agencies) such an act of terror is like comparing chalk to cheese.
If the trial has been conducted in absentia and he has been convicted “I” as only one have no problem concurring, as terrorism is not to be admired. “I” as only one will not, however, use the above to make the conclusions about the entire US government and system of democracy one way or another. One may wait and see, observe the voting pattern will be in the wake of a war that was pre-emptive rather than in response,m just as one may see what wwill happen here in this county’s upcoming voting pattern.
If one sees a double standard one may be correct in part. Does this implied double standard hold true to a blanket statement covering all innocent Americans, all Democrats, all Republicans? Why is there such and anti-American feducation here in Bim? Could it be the media, the Gladstone Holder wannabees, and our traditional-biased media educating us oin America, as they themselves have been taught by teacher? No way, ha!
Nor can a decent human being use any of the above writings as justification for terrorist acts against innocent Americans, or others, whether in America, or in other parts of the world.
That would be hypocritical of us?
Let us please take some time and efffort look to prevent terrorism and its precursors in Barbados.
This whole point, as interesting as it is, distracts us from our local duty of focus, which is finding and suppressing the Salafi Mahaj type of influences within Barbados.
“This whole point, as interesting as it is, distracts us from our local duty of focus, which is finding and suppressing the Salafi Mahaj type of influences within Barbados”
Firstly, Islam totally condemns the killing of innocent civilians.
Secondly, I do not know many Muslims in Barbados who call them self ‘Salafis’, but I do know other Muslims in the Caribbean who refer to themselves as ‘Salafis’, and I know that they are opposed to ‘terrorism’, suicide bombings, and 9/11. This opinion is also reflected in the writings of their major scholars.
So just because a Muslim calls himself a ‘Salafi’ does not automatically mean he has ‘terrorist’ idealogies.
****************************
BFP Asks…
BM, you say…
“Firstly, Islam totally condemns the killing of innocent civilians.”
What is the difference between an “innocent” civilian and a “not innocent” civilian who (presumably) can be killed without condemnation?
Don’t you understand that we (non Muslims) are fed up with Muslims “denouncing” violence while using weasel words – leaving holes and outs and qualifications?
Let me hear you say without qualification that the Muslims who murdered all those folks on 9/11 are burning in hell and are not with their virgins in Heaven. Say it… or don’t say it. But whatever you say, please don’t use weasel words.
I would find it very hard to believe that anyone on this blog ,especially Bajans ,promotes or agrees with terrorism in any form.
We however, are now fully aware of the double standards and unfair practices of the USA and their foriegn policies.
With this in mind ,any right thinking person would obviously question their actions now before jumping on the terror bandwagon ,as many have done before.
To question them is taken as being against them(as said in that speech by the President……”you are either with us or against us”).
Just because all of us don’t follow blindly like sheep does not mean we are for terrorism,some of us are just practicing free thinking.
I take offense for the characterization”Gladstone Holder wanna bees”.
The man has passed but it was people like him who opened the eyes of young people like me to the double standards of US foreign policy.It was him,in his column who thought guys like me to think and seek the truth ,rather than follow blindly.
On second thought…..no offense taken…..my apologies…….please….. call me a Gladstone Holder wanna bee.:-)
Unfortunately, if BFP past writings are correct re the location of origination, “Salafi Manhaj” is a Bajan. So regardless of what we ‘believe’, the truth is ever so slightly different.
We would like BM to say who are these people, and what is being done?
Come again?
Chase, if there’s anything about my writing which is n’t clear to you then I can only suggest that you read it again. I can’t be bothered to explain what should be as obvious as ABC. I know when you’re talking to a person who is n’t going to be persuaded, whatever I say. As North Star said, “prefers to live in a dreamworld”.
It would, obviously, have been much better if they could simply, have assassinated Sadam but they either could n’t or would n’t. I guess it’s not the politically, correct thing to do these days, consequently, many innocent people had to suffer for years in Iraq and now the Americans are suffering too, with the loss of their good sons, in that god-forsaken country.
Iraq is going to break-up, was always going to, once Sadam left, either under the Americans or whomever, just as Yugoslavia did. Indeed, it’s already started to do so. The fact that it’s happening under American patronage, is neither here nor there. It was bound to happen, anyway.
Finally, yuh got a muslim pun hay, talking foolishness?????? OMG!!!!!!!!
P.S. Yes, I’m always incensed by bullies and will continue to be, thank god.
bimbro
this is exactly what i was talking about. the injustice n double standards of usa.
If saddam was such abad man why didnt they invade earlier or took him out earlier.but then u know what ,he was their toy in the 80’s vs. iran so he was the hero while iran the villian.why take out only saddam ,why not egypt ,syria,s.arabia etc bcos they also suppress their population.
thank god u r incensed with the u.s as they r biggest bullies around.
‘Uneducated idiot’, I’m sorry to say that I think you completely, misunderstood, my post.
By the way, why did you choose that name?
“most muslims r caught in a catch-22 situation.”
awwww.
well isn’t that just a crying shame, nuh?
I feel so sorry for them, and all the other misguided idiots following this or that childish religion of psychological support,
to the point where we’re at war with each other,
both sides both religions being “peaceful” and “loving”…yeah yeah..yadda yadda yadda
just like the idiot Catholics versus the idiot Protestants in Northern Island,
self destructing just like they absolutely DESERVE TO.
Fools, all of them.
Keep “believing” ad infinitum…ad nauseum – FOOLS,all of you mindless believers!
My prophet vs. Your Prophet.
LMAO!
mercy mercy,
so tell me, who r the guided ones?the non religious, the secular ones,well the way see it they r in the same boat. everybody’s fighting now adays for something or the other.
hey brim,
the name was just trying to be sarcastic n funny at the same time.think ill change it though to something more barbadiana……like……..cheesecutter.Yeah thats it my new name will be cheesecutter.Bfp take note.
Re: uneducated iddiot
June 6th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
If saddam was such abad man why didnt they invade earlier or took him out earlier.but then u know what ,he was their toy in the 80’s vs. iran so he was the hero while iran the villian.why take out only saddam ,why not egypt ,syria,s.arabia etc bcos they also suppress their population.
Me: Doan forget their big time ally now in Pakistan– Musharraf…. He wasn’t even elected he disposed the last government in a dey too coup. So forget that standing for Democracy ting too.. haha
And as far as your statement about Saddam being the USA’s toyboy… Yuh is right on de money. But doan tell Bimbro and dem nuh- he might burst a blood vessel in he neck or something….
Reference-
Article: Saddam Hussein Helped Detroit Church, Got Key to City
Date: Thursday, March 27, 2003
Source: http://www.FoxNews.com
Link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82317,00.html
(Begin)
DETROIT — Saddam Hussein donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Detroit church and received a key to the city more than two decades ago, soon after he became president of Iraq.
The events contrast sharply with the attack Saddam’s regime is now facing from a U.S.-led coalition, reflecting his changed relationship with the United States since Washington helped Saddam covertly in his 1980-88 war with Iran.(End)
Everything is juss a single wheel turning.
dear bfp,
i see i’ve step on that big toenail of yours.i was trying to xplain to you why muslims didnt wholeheartedly denounce 9/11.bcos thats what u pointed out in particular.re:last para..
As for the whole list u give there i am sure muslims do not support these extremists.
mind u i noticed that almost half of the list is in iraq where there are 2 wars being fought. iraqi vs the coalition of the willing and ,sunnis vs shias.
another 1/4 is devoted to afghanistan whereu know its another war between the coalition of the willing and the taliban & al qaeda.
i also noticed u mentioned attacks on israel i was surprised they were only about 10 mentioned.do me a favour since u like lists give me alist of all the people that israel has killed in the last six months.n while u r at it give me alist of all those murdered in usa[iam not singling dem out just by way of example] by guns.
this is the thing,whenever a muslim kills someone he is labelled aterrorist/mugahidin/extremist/militant even though it may be a domestic dispute or some other matter.u know why ,bcos muslims r the “in ” thing now.
by the way 6/21/06 afgha…..how did the fedayeen end up there ,i thought they were in iraq.see what i tell ya.
6/25/06 irael hamas idf….u got to be kidding bfp.
9/5/06 pakistan, man kills wife in honour ……,oh lordy what does that have to do with militants?
9/22/06 afgan…taliban attack fuel tankers kill…1 driver….what should they do ,they r fighting the socalled govt ,tell the driver get out first…come on man they r at war…remember who said it “u r either with us or against us”.do soldiers in iraq ask first n then shoot or the other way around.
do me a favour, de udder day a woman in in usa killed her three children, find out for me if she was a muslim.or what was her religious persuasion.then i would do like u n get a list of christians ,then atheists etc.who have done something wrong.
se the bbc today,21 people were killed in kenyacheck out if their religios persuasion so i could put in 1 of my lists for u.
the thing is bfp i am in no way condoning extemists acts but today if a taliban[muslim] farts in kandahar it is heard on fox news as a breaking story .lol.
The list of Islamic murders/murderers is impressive and shows that BFP is really able to do very in depth research as to who was responsible for what and when. What was that I hear? You can also be mistaken and have poor sources of information Re; Crooked Veco executive!
Peace
BFP:
Do you realise that anyone too can post a list just as long, about the atrocities perpetrated by the USA?
That list is short compared to what they have done in the past.
Maybe Panama,Grenada and Somalia is enough to equal that list in short.
It is amazing how you profess to be ‘Christians’ but lose your cool so easily.
Temper ,temper…….be quick to reason not anger.
************************
Comment by BFP
OK, you’re on, Chase!
But first, let’s not change the subject… that list was in response to the argument that Muslim Extremists murder because of injustices by the USA – not religious fanaticism. So throw out everything on that list but Thailand – unless you think that the Muslims in Thailand are killing 5 year old girls because of the USA.
Now… about that list.
Please post a similar list for the same four month period of Christians who killed for religious fanaticism – ie: to please God, get the heavenly reward etc…
GO!
Comment by BFP
OK, you’re on, Chase!
But first, let’s not change the subject… that list was in response to the argument that Muslim Extremists murder because of injustices by the USA – not religious fanaticism. So throw out everything on that list but Thailand – unless you think that the Muslims in Thailand are killing 5 year old girls because of the USA.
Now… about that list.
Please post a similar list for the same four month period of Christians who killed for religious fanaticism – ie: to please God, get the heavenly reward etc…
GO!
OK uneducated iddiot and Chase…
Oops!
It is only a three month period…
Go to it Chase & UI…
Please come up with a list of murders by Christians done for religious reasons in the exact same period… from June 15, 2006 to September 16, 2006
Here is the revised list for a 3 month period in Thailand only…
Take each one of these brutal murders and tell me how the USA is responsible for each one.
Date Country City Killed Injured Description
9/16/06 Thailand Hat Yai 5 79 At least five patrons of a shopping district are killed when Muslim militants set off six separate bombs.
9/15/06 Thailand Narathiwat 2 1 Two civilians are brutally shot to death by Islamic militants while traveling on a road.
9/15/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is killed in his home by militant Muslims.
9/11/06 Thailand Yala 1 4 A Buddhist woman is gunned down by militant Muslims in her grocery store.
9/5/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslims gun down a man sitting in a tea shop.
9/5/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim militants set fire to a house, killing a 61-year-old man.
9/5/06 Thailand Yala 1 2 An older woman is killed in her home by Islamists.
8/31/06 Thailand Yala 1 27 Islamists set off two dozen bombs in garbage cans, killing at least one person.
8/28/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is murdered by Islamic terrorists at a petrol station.
8/28/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim militants attack a man delivering donuts, killing him and then cutting off his ears.
8/26/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslim militants ambush two pick-up trucks carrying soldiers, killing at least one.
8/26/06 Thailand Yala 2 5 Two Thai soldiers are killed by a remote-controlled roadside bomb.
8/25/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 25-year-old man is murdered by terrorists as he sat in his truck.
8/23/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A schoolteacher is gunned down by Muslim militants as he is on his way to teach.
8/23/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Militant Muslims murder a community guard.
8/21/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is murdered by Muslim terrorists in his living room.
8/21/06 Thailand Yala 3 0 Three Buddhist civilians are gunned down in an orchard by Islamic radicals.
8/20/06 Thailand Pattani 1 1 Muslim gunmen fire into a truck loaded with laborers, killing one.
8/19/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Radical Islamists shoot a plantation worker as he is riding a motorcycle to his job.
8/19/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic terrorists shoot a man to death on a city street.
8/18/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 58-year-old man is murdered in front of his house by militant Muslims.
8/17/06 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two men are shot off their motorbikes by Muslim terrorists in separate attacks.
8/14/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 56-year-old man is shot seven times in the head by Islamic separatists.
8/14/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamic fundamentalists murder a pork seller.
8/14/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A rubber plantation worker is murderd by Islamic terrorists.
8/13/06 Thailand Narathiwat 4 12 Islamic radicals kill a shopowner to draw police, then detonate a bomb, killing three additional civilians and injuring twelve.
8/13/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 2 A man is killed by Muslim gunmen in a drive-by shooting while he is having tea. Two elderly patrons are wounded.
8/12/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A circus owner is killed by two Muslim terrorists posing as customers.
8/12/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A policeman is gunned down by Muslim militants while on patrol.
8/12/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamists shoot a policeman in the back as he is leaving his house.
8/9/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 An elderly gas station owner is shot to death in a Muslim terror attack.
8/8/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A rubber tapper is murdered by Islamic terrorists.
8/6/06 Thailand Tala 1 0 A rubber plantation worker is machine-gunned to death by Islamic radicals.
8/6/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 52-year-old Buddhist civilian is gunned down by Muslims.
8/3/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 Islamic militants shoot a mechanic to death and seriously injure a 5-year-old girl.
8/2/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Islamists kill a guard at a construction site with a bomb.
8/2/06 Thailand Songkhla 3 1 Thai Islamists kill three policeman with a bomb planted along a railroad track.
7/30/06 Thailand Yala 1 1 A Muslim terrorist poses as a fruit seller in order to gain the confidence of two other fruit sellers, who he then guns down.
7/30/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A man is abducted and shot in the head by Islamic radicals.
7/25/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 The employee of a wood-processing plant is killed by Islamic gunmen.
7/25/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Militant Muslims shoot a man off of his motorcycle as he is riding to work.
7/24/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A Buddhist teacher is gunned down by Muslim militants in the classroom in front of his 10-year-old students.
7/23/06 Thailand Pattani 1 3 Islamic radicals murder a 60-year-old janitor as he is buying vegetables for his wife.
7/20/06 Thailand Pattani 3 1 Militant Muslims spray a police booth with automatic weapons, killing three officers.
7/20/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 60-year-old fruit grower is gunned down by Islamic militants.
7/16/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A man is stabbed to death by Muslim militants and dumped into a river.
7/16/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 40-year-old retired policeman is killed by Islamic militants as he entered his home.
7/16/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Islamists on a motorcycle pump four rounds into a civilian.
7/16/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Thai Jihadis murder a 71-year-old man standing in front of his house.
7/14/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 52-year-old man is gunned down by Islamic radicals.
7/13/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 6 Islamists set off a bomb in a market, killing one person.
7/9/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim radicals gun down a young man at a rubber plantation.
7/5/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is shot to death by Islamic gunmen while riding a motorcycle.
7/1/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Radical Muslims shoot a 22-year-old man to death as he is sleeping in the back of his pick-up truck.
7/1/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslim terrorists shoot a civilian off of his motorcycle.
6/28/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 5 Islamic gunmen storm into a karaoke bar, killing one and injuring five others.
6/27/06 Thailand Yala 5 1 Islamists target a convoy of teachers with a bomb. Five security guards are killed in the explosion.
6/27/06 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two villagers are murdered by Islamic radicals.
6/27/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is killed in his home by Islamists.
6/18/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 48-year-old man out for a Sunday drive is shot to death by Islamists.
6/18/06 Thailand Pattani 1 2 An 88-year-old woman is murdered when Islamists open up on a crowd with automatic weapons.
6/17/06 Thailand Yala 1 2 Islamists bomb a karaoke bar, killing one patron.
6/15/06 Thailand Pattani 1 10 Islamists bomb a tea shop, killing a Buddhist patron. Just one of 41 bombs set that morning.
6/15/06 Thailand Pattani 1 6 A man is killed by Muslim bombers targeting a city hall.
That is only 3 months.
dear bfp
re:Let me hear you say without qualification that the Muslims who murdered all those folks on 9/11 are burning in hell and are not with their virgins in Heaven. Say it… or don’t say it. But whatever you say, please don’t use weasel words.
the comments i made were in response to this comment above.where i mentioned briefly the reason why alqaida attacked was bcos of u.s policy etc….I didnt say that u.s was responsible for every extremists act of terror.
can u link the site where u get all this info from n if possible links to each of these thailand incidents.
re:old name is uneducated idiot so i not hiding or anything.
George W Bush!!
update :just checked these muslims in yala thailand[religion buddhist]. It appears to be another insurgency .funny thing though ,wikepedia states that about 1800 civilians killed while about 1400 insurgents/separatists killed.
now here’s the thing check the map ,this yala place is bordering malaysia[official religion islam].its probobly that these separatists are mostly muslims n they want their own homeland or join with malay….this is how SEPARATISTS fight,they humbug the govt by drive shootings etc. so that the govt would give in to their objectives and its just by chance that they muslims so therefore terroirists.
check srilanka, tamils have been fightin for own homeland eva since n doing the same thing ,but no no bfp ,they r not terrorists ,they r labelled separatists.
the kurds want their own homeland between south turkey n northern iraq and have been ‘struggling’ against secular turkey and pre-bush iraq a long time now,but r they terrorists? nooo noo bfp ,they are separatists[even though maj. r muslims].
as i always say,ONE MAN’S TERRORIST IS ANOTHER MANS FREEDOM FIGHTER.
again i repeat i dont support their methods but separatists/small groups/minorities/light weapon groups will always resort to these tactics.
peace nah it getting late i sleepy.
The list of innocent Iraqis and Afghan civilians would take too long to post.
They were killed under the direct order of a Christian president who controls the worlds deadliest army.
These innocent people were killed by 5000 lbs bombs dropped on their city in the name of regime change.
Should I mention the list of innocent Lebanese people who died and are still dying from unexploded ordinance ?Not to mention the fact that these type of bombs are banned in warfare.Not to mention the fact that they were dropped purposely in civilian areas,AFTER the cease fire.
*********************
BFP responds…
Sorry Chase… doesn’t cut it. Are you saying that Bush bombs and kills to fulfill Christian religious beliefs? Are you saying that murder is not only condoned but ordered in the Christian faith and that as a good Christian Bush is fulfilling scripture and commands from his god?
Now let’s get back to the subject… which is the thought or theory as posted by many on this blog that Muslim jihadists murder infidels not because their religion tells them to or because they are advancing Islam through the sword, but because the United States causes them to.
I have presented a list of non-muslims murdered by Muslim jihadists in Thailand. Primarily Buddhist teachers and ordinary folks. Children. 5 year old little girls.
Look at the numbers in just three months in such a small country. Perhaps you could do a little google search on it and discover the truth for yourself. Listen to what the Thai jihadists say for themselves. Read the detailed accounts of the murders and why the jihadists say they murdered this person or that little girl on her way home from school.
But you don’t want to recognise world-wide Jihad as being religiously motivated in fulfillment of the Koran. Nothing I can do about that.
I sleepy too….
well said Chase, how can we forget his ‘crusade’.
oohh thats another one Chase,the israelis otherwise known as jews/zionists whose objective is to live on land ‘God’ gave/promised them. smirk smirk no religious undertones there nuh.thats 2 lists for bfp to check when they have the time.
i dont how i gine get up to see my woman perform tomorrow oops i mean w.indies.
the world of international politics is so complex with religion, economics, politics, nationalism, greed etc all intertwined. but obviously christian evangelicals have a burning desire to always cry down islam and so their simplistic rantings are always about evil muslims bent on world domination!
i dont see how individual muslims in one part of the world can be held accountable for the behaviour of some fanatic half a world away.
tell me bfp, will you unequivocally condemn the rantings of evangelical christian bigots like jerry falwell, billy graham and a host of others?
or will you try and justify them because you yourself have an evangelical christian agenda? i guess you will preach to us about islam or call us morons or tell us to go and get our own blog on wordpress!
GOD BLESS THE USA AND GREAT BRITAIN! Without them many of you, so keen to criticise them now, would be scratching your as*es wondering where your next meal would be coming from. I don’t recall Sadam or any muslim ever doing anything for Bim. In fact, judging from the way he treated his neighbours, they would only be interested in ENSLAVING us. I’m not going to pretend that those two countries are perfect but they’re certainly, a million times better than we’d experience under any muslim, regime. Let’s see how many of you are prepared to go and live in a muslim state, that’s if they would n’t bar you on the grounds of your race, in the first place.
As North Star stated, many of you are living in a dream-world, state of mind!
As for the person who dared to mention Billy Graham in the same breath as Sadam Hussein and the murderous, muslims – you deserve a typical, muslim treatment – your head chopping-off!
Will Bimbro be banned for making threats threats to another poster?We will wait and see….others have been.
Quick to anger again……
BFP:Are you saying that Bush bombs and kills to fulfill Christian religious beliefs?
Chase: Hell yes!! He is a Christian…..they are Muslims..period!
BFP:Are you saying that murder is not only condoned but ordered in the Christian faith and that as a good Christian Bush is fulfilling scripture and commands from his god?
Chase:Hell yes!! ….to the best of his misguided ability.
BIMBRO: It is tiring to hear that silly refrain…..go live in a muslim country….According to you ,I already do remember?
It is only obvious that if you came up with one culture embedded in your life ,it will always be difficult to adjust.If you were born in a muslim country,you would be living by their customs just as comfortable as you are living now.
North Star said we are living in a dream world….but Chase says..The world is a cycle,just look and see what is coming around again.
All of this is so sad, and so revealing on our want of ability to see the forest for the trees and the smoke.
For those who automatically assume that this “must be” a made-up accusation for US propaganda reasons, look back and see that we are looking at a plot that tracks back 10+ years, and that the principal means of information for the police was a duly wired informant, as the BBC report will repeatedly confirm. Of course it can all be made up, but is there good reason to infer to that? [What is the evidence of such fraud relevant to this case, other than prejudice and hostility? BTW, just in case: I take the view that there are reasons to think there may have been evidence tampering on the OJ case, e.g the “appearing” sock in the bedroom . . .]
Seems, on the reports, the initial recon was done and one of the implicated was on his way to a jurisdiction where monitoring by police agencies was impossible. So they wrapped it up without being able to get a nibble from the fish they were really after: el Shukrijumah. [Who is a Guyanese, Indian ethnic Muslim reportedly involved in major terrorist plots in our hemisphere and is held to be closely tied to al Qaeda, with a US$ 5 mn reward on his head.]
Regardless of how this particular case pans out when all the evidence is in, and on how we may think the Americans hypocrites [etc], we need to look very seriously at the global problem of Militant Islamism.
That is on the evidence not just an American [-provoked] problem, but one that is facing our region too.
Doubt me? Just think back to Red House, Trinidad, a certain fateful Friday afternoon, in 1990.
Then do some historical research over the past 1,400 years. Militant Islamism — not at all the same as “all [or even most] muslims” — is a problem.
Then, THINK, don’t just predictably react.
Ah Gawn . . .
GEM of TKI
Chase, you’re so silly. Did I threaten to do so myself, or incite anybody else to do so? You are too, silly for a grown man. I stated that that was the punishment he deserved. I did n’t ask anybody to do it and DON’T ask anybody to. I am a law-abiding, democrat, UNLIKE YOUR MUSLIM FRIENDS, and should never condone anybody being punished unless as a result of a trial before a lawfully and properly, constitued court of law. Chase, you have destroyed a lot of your own credibility in my eyes, as well as, perhaps, in the eyes of others, for making such a silly, accusation!
Chase, I had no idea where you live until you suggested Barbados, by implication, just now. Loss of further, credibility, I’m afraid.
I see that the idiotic, Trini hiding for days from the police after running his mouth so freely and threatening this and that to the US, has now come out of hiding and submitted himself to the authorities. My hope is that he and the rest of them will end-up in Guantanemo. Might teach them to be more grateful of what we have, with Uncle Sam!
And exactly where are you from Bim-bro?
If anyone else was to say what you said it would be a bad thing….like I always say ..insults are taken,so you have a very hard time trying to insult me .
Bimbro:
As for the person who dared to mention Billy Graham in the same breath as Saddam Hussein and the murderous, Muslims – you deserve a typical, Muslim treatment – your head chopping-off!
If a person came up to you and say these exact words,wouldn’t any one feel threatened?And you have the gall to call someone silly?
Maybe if I was one who swallowed everything that comes from CNN,FOX etc.then maybe I would have your respect…thing is I am a free thinking individual ,not the proverbial sheep that you would like us to be.
If being a Barbadian discredits me..well too bad.I cant be anything else than bajan ,no matter how long I may live in another country……..at least I am no Uncle Tom ,neither a sell out.
I do not agree with Militant Muslims violent and murderous ways of making their points but neither do I accept that others are not to blame for the situation we find ourselves in right now.
Another point to add to your comment:
If the Trini was such a bad ass terrorist as you would like us to believe,why surrender?Why not go down as a martyr and enjoy his virgins?Isnt this the way they are trained?
Thing is ,this guy looks like the regular city vagrant more than a militant.
The world is a cycle.
For lengthy times we have waited for an indication of what will be done by the Muslim community, not about those who are non-extremist as written above, but those who ARE extremism inclined.
The Foundation for Islamic Development in Barbados put on lectures in Barbados at Clement Payne and at Grande Salle, encouraging hopeful converts. The first lecture was a Christian who converted to Islam. FID and the local Muslim community leaders are actively pursuing converts.
It was reported as hearsay (on Freepress) that Salafi Manhaj is resident at Islamic Teaching Centre, Harts Gap, and that it is the ‘converts’ who are the problem, i.e. a group of ‘Johnnie come lately’ Muslims in Barbados who are not born into the ‘real’ community.
Since Bajan Muslim and the local community refuse to acknowledge a responsibility to stop extremism from growing, today, after waiting sufficient time, one regrets in pointing a finger at the Muslim community saying to stop solicitation, whereby the extremists originate.
Back mid eighties the Saudis began outreach, and it continues. Sunnis from Saudi Arabia are outreaching all over the world, and out of Sunni are offshoots Al Qaeda, Salafi, Wahaabi and others. Yes, one agrees that almost all Sunnis, as all persons are of all persuasions, are peaceful. One need not quote the 5-10 percentage of possible extremism, as in previous threads, but the act of solicitation and spreading the mission, extremism is recognised as born in Bim, just like elsewhere, from the so-called innocent Muslim community outreach. This comes with a real responsibility.
It is time to recognise that the Muslim community can no longer dissociate from its responsibility, as it continues to try to do, while spreading a message leading to extremism in some of its quarters. Let the local Muslim community either take responsibility seriously to eliminate this or face scrutiny.
How is it that in all other areas of the press, these men were said to be muslim ,but here they are
adventist
dear educationalists,
2nd para .If the fid persues converts,they do not do it with the help of the local community.the majority of the local do not affiliate with this group. have u ever seen anyone from the local comm.. going house to house trying to convert bajans,i dont think so.however if a person is interested/inclined then there will be dialogue/literature etc.
4th/5th para …not really true…my info is although no one can be prevented from praying at a mosque,this type of group[salafis] was prevented from conducting classes at the mosqe in kensington.so much so that most of them congregate you know where in ch.ch. the problem is when they were told that such teaching/doctrine is not welcomed, local muslim community is labelled racist as most of them are indian descent.
last para…how will the local community eradicate this ‘problem’ when each person is entitled to his own opinion /persuasion.
Chase, exactly, where I’m from is n’t of much consequence except to say that I do have some experience of living in Bim. However, I’m pretty sure that I stated earlier, that I’m resident in the UK.
Chase, if you can’t see a difference between meeting somebody in the street and making the comment to them which I did, and doing so on the internet where nobody knows anybody, nor where precisely, they are, then I’m sorry for you. Sadly, I’m getting more disappointed by you, by each contribution that you post.
I’ve no serious desire to insult you Chase, I’m just a little disappointed by some of the things which you’ve said. If I seriously, wanted to insult you Chase, I’d be ‘efing and blinding’ as we say in the UK. i.e. swearing quite badly! I in na angel! 🙂
Cool, bro, but I think you’ll understand that I’ve got no time for muslims of whatever shade, based on the geo-political profile of them combined with my personal, experience of them.
My dear, fellow, who said anything about being a Barbadian discrediting you? I’m a Barbadian, myself and I’m reasonably, happy to be one. There’re many worse things which one could have been.
Why did n’t the Trini surrender? Simple, ’cause he’s an effing coward like most of them. Like most people, I’d like to be allowed a few minutes alone wid he! 🙂
Educationalists, I can’t believe that Bim is allowing muslims into our country spreading their filth. In the long run, Bim will be doomed. They’re not content with Trinidad they want to send Bim down the sewer, the same way, too. You people must be joking.
CHRISTIANITY, FOREVER!
Glory-B: Just tongue-in-cheek humour. Everyone knows they weren’t Adventists, just Muslims as usual.
In Bimbros (I would have prefered Bimbo,but same thing )posting on June 7th at 10.21am,he asked God to bless America and Great Britian ,for as he stated, without them many of us would be starving,not knowing where our next meal would be coming from. POOR FELLA,you need to be educated, the poorest person in barbados could share what little he has with several poor,destitute persons in the U>S>A..America cannot ,or rather would noteven feed her own ,so how can she feed others. There are more hungry /homeless people in U.S.A than the whole population in Barbados so what are you telling me? As for Great Britian, Why do you think she fight so vigerously to hold on to many of these “Small” islands ? It was to make sure that she had a constant supply of “Free goods and labor, so as to build up her economy, when this was completed, and she saw it fit she “Gave them their independance ; She dont as you say feed us, she owes us “GRATURITY” And by the way ,thank you For opening some of our eyes as to the importanse of teeding ourselves
My guess is that if we lived in Muslim state, most of us would have been stoned to death by now! In fact, here’s the puzzle: who stones the last person to death?
Either stoned to death or your head chopped off with a sword and the grisly details shown on Al Jazeera.
Bimbro:
Chase, if you can’t see a difference between meeting somebody in the street and making the comment to them which I did, and doing so on the internet where nobody knows anybody.
————————————————————————————————————————————
Please explain to me the difference, as I am too silly.Are you trying to say to me that because you did it under the guise of anonymity,all is well?Isn’t the fact that it was in your heart to say it bad enough?
Bimbro:
If I seriously, wanted to insult you Chase, I’d be ‘efing and blinding’ as we say in the UK. i.e. swearing quite badly! I in na angel
——————————————————————————
Neither am I an angel…in fact I am a Bajan ,no one can do it like we can…as I think you know 🙂
Bimbro:
but I think you’ll understand that I’ve got no time for Muslims of whatever shade, based on the geo-political profile of them combined with my personal, experience of them.
—————————————————————————————-
Thanks for the confession,now we see you for the true person you are.You have a personal problem which discredits you from making balanced comments.I have often wondered about the venom in your post but now we all see why.With your bias ,you obviously will have a hard time contributing to the issue in any positive way.
I too am disappointed in you…at least you were honest to admit it in the end.
Islam is de second largest religion in the world. It has like 1.5 billion followers. Its not going anywhere (have you ever tried to get rid of 1.5 billion people?) So everybody better learn to get along….. If not this gon be another dismal century….
how come nobody replies to my comments.am i talking the truth or am i talking junk?either way please let me know your opinion.
Bimbro:
but I think you’ll understand that I’ve got no time for Muslims of whatever shade, based on the geo-political profile of them combined with my personal, experience of them.
Chase, Bimbro busted himself as a bigot right at the top of this thread (see my comment calling him out on it).
On a lighter note:
As someone who so clearly loves England (and all credit to you for that), perhaps you ought to take a little more trouble in mastering the basic rules of English punctuation (I’m thinking specifically of your often inept use of commas).
While in many ways you’re quite an interesting writer, your shaky grasp of comma-usage lets you down and reveals that your’re not particularly well educated.
A simple grammar primer should sort you out, though.
Hope you find this little tip helpful.
Chase said;
Thanks for the confession,now we see you for the true person you are.You have a personal problem which discredits you from making balanced comments.I have often wondered about the venom in your post but now we all see why.With your bias ,you obviously will have a hard time contributing to the issue in any positive way.
I too am disappointed in you…at least you were honest to admit it in the end.
Chase, again you surprise me. My bias against those people has been obvious from the start. I have never made any attempt to conceal it.
Saying that, because a person is biased, they can’t have a positive view is silly. If after listening to your points of view, I changed my opinion to being biased in the opposite direction, would that also, mean that I could n’t ‘make a positve contribution’ as you stated. The whole point of discussion is to arrive at a final ‘bias’, (opinion) otherwise one might as well not bother, in the first place.
Chase, on the subject of the punishment which I suggested for anyone daring to mention Billy Graham in the same sentence as Osama – I think you’re being a bit, too sensitive. You need to relax a little more. That’s the nature of these forums.
I’m glad for the debate, anyway and hope that I’ve learnt something and hopefully, that you have, too, good or ill.
Glory-B, thanks for the post. I find it interesting even though I may not really, agree with you. I hope that after such criticism that you’re not now a resident of the US, or it should seem extremely, ungrateful of you to say such things. However, even if you are not a US resident, many Barbadians are, and I think that most of them are probably, much more grateful than you for the privelege or they would n’t have fought so hard to become US citizens, or made their homes and lives, there.
Peltdown Man
June 7th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
My guess is that if we lived in Muslim state, most of us would have been stoned to death by now!
Well, said, Peltdown Man. Remind our poor, mis-guided Bajan brothers and sisters here what the reality of life in a muslim state would be like for black people. They seem to want to live in dreamland. Worry, too, about the number of them, already, in Bim. I would, if I were you!
Thistle
June 7th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Either stoned to death or your head chopped off with a sword and the grisly details shown on Al Jazeera.
Again, well said, Thistle. I watch Al Jazeera reasonably, frequently and I’m convinced that it is just a muslim-mouthpiece. They try to give the impression of not being biased and being an impartial and normally, respectable news station but I still get the impression that what they’re really, about is pushing the muslim agenda. I think they hope that we’ll be too, dumb to see but, they’re mistaken there.
J. Payne
June 7th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
Islam is de second largest religion in the world. It has like 1.5 billion followers. Its not going anywhere (have you ever tried to get rid of 1.5 billion people?) So everybody better learn to get along….. If not this gon be another dismal century….
Payne, I so sympathise with you but, come on bro, do you think those peope want to get along with anybody? Their sole aim is to take over. You must be able to see that by now, or you don’t know them as well, as you think you do. It’s absolutely, impossible to reason with those people which is why it’s pointless trying and simply, a waste of effort. Don’t worry though. We, (Britain), and the US, of whom so many of you are so, critical, will protect you. Blighty’s rolling-out is newest right-hook this morning, so you and the rest of you can sleep a bit more easily, in your beds in Bim and Brooklyn, tonight. Just be a little more, grateful. We’ve got many more punches like those in the background, and, I can assure you, that the US, has, too not to mention our allies in Europe. Do you have any?
GOD BLESS THE US AND GREAT BRITAIN! JUST BE A LITTLE MORE GRATEFUL! TREMBLE……..
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13591481,00.html
Sorry, I can’t help you Cheescutter. I found that last piece of yours, difficult to comprehend. I have n’t lived in Bim for a long time – maybe that’s why.
Samizdat, I think the significance of the very, important subject which we’re discussing here, is far more important than my use of commas. I’m sorry, if I’m not as ‘well educated’ as you, Sir but I’ve more, important things to say than you.
Also,
‘stay way from Nelson Street’, and the wrong, women. Just to show how much I care. Poor bugger.
http://www.nationnews.com/life/317264887379286.php
cheesecutter
You asked for a response to your posting and since you feel or rather gave the impression, that you are being ignored I will respond. I have not been involved in the discussion, because most of what I would say has been said by others, therefore I would not be bringing something new to the discussion.
You stated…”how will the local community eradicate this “problem,” when each person is entitled to his own opinion/persuasion”
I believe each person is entitled to his opinion, hence this blog, with regard to persuasion I believe that is also allowed in Barbados without hinderance.
The discussion centres around the impact ones persuasion has on the society in which it is practiced. Some people say certain religions are to the detriment of society, apart from those societies in which they are the majority religion, and even then there appears to be unrest.
To me the litmus test is this, there are many religions in the world and many of those religions are the majority religion in certain countries.
If one can identify two countries in the world where the Muslim religion is in the majority and there is no civil unrest, let me know of them. I am simply asking a question.
***********
On a separate issue, it is rather sad when someone is critical of a fellow blogger and tries to put them down, not by weight of argument but by reference to writing style, grammar, punctuation or the lack of it.
We are discussing issues that we might or might not feel strongly about, what is important is the weight of understood argument, no more or less than that .
This is not a school.
It was Petrach Francesco 1304-1374 who said
” bare truth can often conquer ornate eloquence” I will leave it at that.
Bimbro: Whilst I am happy to hear about Britain’s newest submarine (Can’t beat British ingenuity!), I don’t see how that will deal with the overwhelming internal problems Britain, U.S.A. and Canada are facing with their ever-growing Muslim populations. The only political party in Britain with the guts to deal with that problem is the BNP, and they are too extreme because their prejudice extends to Jews and Blacks as well. That twerp, Cameron of the Conservative party is useless, so there’s no hope for the U.K. if he takes over the reins of government. It’s a no-win situation as I see it.
Cheesecutter makes some reasonable points and shows (in my humble opinion) wisdom as a free thinking person.
Many of us take the easy road out and follow religion blindly, without question, without the personal wisdom which comes from our spirit.
The intolerance of both the followers of Islam and Christianity is the problem.
One Bajan contributors condemnation of Muslims exhibits a primitive spiritual outlook. We should perhaps remember that the sentiments expressed about Muslims in Britain are very similar to those expressed by the National Front and British Nationalist Party regarding young Caribbean men and women. Many British people saw/see Caribbean people, Africans and Asians as invaders. We took their jobs, moved into their neighbourhoods, caused increased crime and depleted their social services.
Now many Caribbean immigrants think they are British, they now lament the new immigrants from Eastern Europe and North Africa. Some now fear the Muslims and so the bitter cycle continues; Until we realise that the driving forces are fear and love.
Which do you choose? Which do you prefer.
Neither Christian nor Muslim can convert anyone to their faith against their will.
We do not need fear.
Peace
Thanks for the reply and support ‘Yardbroom’. It’s nice to know that somebody still has some sense.
I’ve come across these characters before who, because they’ve had a better education than a person, think that their opinion is more important than somebody else’s. I’ve got no time for them and know what I would do with them, if I could. Can’t be bothered with them man. By their reasoning, I guess three-quarters of the Bim population would n’t be worth listening to! Sheer vermin!
Yardbroom said;
If one can identify two countries in the world where the Muslim religion is in the majority and there is no civil unrest, let me know of them. I am simply asking a question.
Good question, ‘Yard’. I’d be interested to know the answer too, indeed, even where they’re a minority, they’re trouble, as we know!
Thistle, I understand what you’re saying. ‘Astute’ won’t help us deal with the internal, muslim problems but it will help us deal with the external, muslim and other problems.
Completely, agree with you about Cameron and even Blair. When I think of ‘baby-face’ Cameron and Mr ‘What is important/It is important, Blair’, all I can do is laugh. Union-crushing Thatcher, followed but one, by ‘Africa-loving Blair’ has been to the all round, detriment of West Indians over here. Followed now by a ‘dead-pan’ Brown. Oh, Lor, it’s certainly, looking like it’s going to be an interesting time in British politics now, does n’t it – I DON’T THINK! I may have to opt for anti-depressants, to cope with the next 5 to 10 years. Anyhow, as least that prat Putin, will soon also, be gone which MIGHT provide an opportuntity, for some slight relief. Have to say, MIGHT, because we don’t know who he’ll be succeeded by, yet. Could be another Russian, Pr*ck! Anyhow, that’s another matter which I won’t go into now.
Maat, said; Some now fear the Muslims and so the bitter cycle continues; Until we realise that the driving forces are fear and love.
Sorry, Maat, I can only regard this as ‘so much twaddle’! Up to yesterday I watched a programme on the beginnings of Islam. It has been steeped in bloodshed from the word, ‘go’!
To me, Islam in no more than an excuse for murderous bastards to spill the blood, of innocent people! If that’s what you’re interested in doing, then Islam is your religion!
I’m disappointed that nobody seems to be interested in the unfortunate, experience of our Bajan bro. in Nelson St. Maybe, Bajan men don’t matter to you, anymore.
Bimbro: With all the politically correct nonsense spouted from the mouths of the “authorities” in the U.K., I’m surprised you all are still allowed to eat bangers and mash, or have a bacon, sausage and ham breakfast! (For fear of offending the Muslims). In fact, I’m surprised you’re even allowed to have pig farms! Maybe that’s to come.
This guy Bimbro just dont give up!!
Some Muslim must have really lit a fire under your ass!
‘To me, Islam in no more than an excuse for murderous bastards to spill the blood, of innocent people’!
———————————————————————————————————
Funny enough,that is what I thought of the Crusades (and they had the blessing of the church)
Maat:
‘Until we realise that the driving forces are fear and love’.
——————————————————————————————————–
To use your words Maat,some (or most) people take the easy road and choose fear.
It it much easier to control and manipulate people once you have instilled fear in them.
Why do professional, university-educated women and Nobel prize winners cover their faces, and continue to suffer with the lack of employment in Iran? Out of love for their husbands?
During the late 1990s and the first 5 years 2000-2005, during the campaign of public education by the Muslim community in Barbados, there were columns in the paper espousing the benefits if Islam. Daily and weekly letters to the editor from the leaders of the peaceful Muslim community were entertained, and widely read in both papers. These educationalaists paved the way for conversion campaigns and worked hard at promoting Islam in Bim. As time has gone on 3 mosques and Islamic parochial schools have been established in Barbados. We do not know the syllabus that is taught, whether the Saudi Sunni ways are imparted by the educationalists, or not, though it has been asked.
Now that the education programs and the conversion programs have born fruit the secretary “disavows any knowledge” of what is going on. However, it is not like that. Educationalists are responsible for the growth, the development and take responsibility for the new radicalism, here in Bim, and abroad.
Educationalists teach the establishment of the Caliphate, world domination by Islam, in parochial schools. The fundamental interpretations of Islam lead to fundamentalism.
Fundamentalism leads to a percentage of radicalism. That is why Islamic scholars in the west are calling for a change in Islam itself. But they are weak, and the trend of present fundamentalism is strong. It may not happen.
There is a type of bird that lays its egg in the nest of another bird. The innocent mother incubates it. The hatchling of the one egg grows quicker, and pushes the other hatchlings out being successful. The innocuous egg laid where it is laid by the free flying mother is designed to do what it is born to do.
Sir Ronald Sanders summed this soo called “plot” up rather well.
Article: Commentary: Caribbean business may suffer from “plot” stupidity
Date: Published on Saturday, June 9, 2007
Source: http://www.CaribbeanNetNews.com – Caribbean Net News of the Cayman Islands
Link: http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/news-1975–6-6–.html
[ . . . ]
“Two things are perfectly clear: First, these guys are not wild-eyed, young bombers motivated by the prospect of dying for a cause. They are all close to their sixties. Second, they were in the words of the Trinidad parlance “scrunting”. In other words, they had little money and were incapable of financing an operation such as the one allegedly contemplated for JFK Airport in New York.
It stands to reason that they would have had to be the pawns of a bigger, well-resourced group such as al Qaeda. But, the US experts say they were not. And, attempts to tie them to the one so-called Muslim group in the Caribbean with a link to terror, the Jamaat al Muslimeen, has so far lacked credibility. Certainly the leader of this controversial group has denied any connection to them.
They have done a severe disservice to Guyana, Trinidad and the wider Caribbean. But, more especially, they have hurt Muslim businessmen who seek to do business in the US and other places. Those persons will be checked and double checked and may even be denied visitor’s visas to the US, Canada, the UK and elsewhere because they are Muslim and from Guyana and Trinidad.
And, there is no pretending that there is not profiling of this kind by immigration and security authorities. There is. Now, it will get worse.
Beyond the effect on all Guyanese and Trinidadian travellers but Muslim businessmen especially, there is also the effect that this much publicised “plot to blow up JFK Airport by a terrorist group” will have on Caribbean tourism.
The headlines in newspapers and the pictures on worldwide television by media that enjoyed a feeding frenzy certainly put a beating on Caribbean tourism. Unfortunately, there will be tourists who will think twice now about holidaying in the Caribbean.” [ . . . ]
Thistle
June 9th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Bimbro: With all the politically correct nonsense spouted from the mouths of the “authorities” in the U.K., I’m surprised you all are still allowed to eat bangers and mash, or have a bacon, sausage and ham breakfast! (For fear of offending the Muslims). In fact, I’m surprised you’re even allowed to have pig farms! Maybe that’s to come.
Thistle, you’re so right. Life in the UK is so much bollocks, under always-politically-correct Blair. It would n’t be an overstatement to say that, at times, he makes me feel, quite ill. I feel as though, ‘thank god that he’s going’ but his replacment, Brown, does n’t fill me with any excitement, either. Thus, I feel the possible requirement for tranquillisers! Please don’t mention Cameron. He makes me feel even worse. In my opinion, we’re really ‘screwed’ in this country by the current batch of MPs. They just, ‘do my head in’. Young, have little experience of anything outside of politics and about as interesting as a pig’s backside. I just hope that your people in Bim are somewhat more, inspirational. Mine make me feel like emigrating but, sadly, I can’t at the moment, for various reasons. Anyway, at least we’ve got ‘Astute’ and a number more on the way, so I can at least compliment him, on that.
In respect of the political-correctness; Duh in gun stop me having my bacon an eggs pun a Sunday morning, doah. 🙂
Don’t worry, the US and us will protect you, if anything goes wrong.
Chase, the only thing wrong with the Crusades is that they did n’t succeed, more completely. If they had then perhaps we would n’t be facing the problems we do today and will in the future.
‘Educationalists’, I can’t believe it. I was n’t there at the time but can’t believe that Barbadians have been allowing muslims to plant the seeds of your own destruction in Bim over the past several years and to be nurturing them, too.
My dear, fellow, in the long run, we will all be doomed. They’ve made the same fatal, mistake here, too. It will lead to our anhilation, in the end!
Unbelieveably, the US as well as Europe, has made the same mistake of inviting so many of them in – in fact any of them in at all because their rate of breeding is phenomenal. My dear fellow, we’re all doomed. They laid their eggs in our nests a long time ago, and now it’s only a matter of time before the end of us.
The best thing to do is to ban them and their religion and then to expel them from our country!
Just as Christianity has moved away from the fundamentalist and radicalist punishment, and domineering systems, and political domination as in non-secular countries like Iran, so could Islam.
We should live with love for fellow Muslims, when the change is truly implemented. That is why in this day we can echo the same calls made in other countries and point out the same truths.
The present teaching of fundamentalist interpretations to the Islamic youth (in Barbados too) will lead to future problems, and if these interpretations continue in parochial Islamic schools (in Barbados too), same as in ones in other countries, change will not occur. Change the ‘educationalists’ and it removes the danger of fundamentalism in the next generations.
It is the same here as it is in the USA, UK, others. Pointing these things out does not affect tourism- it is designed to try to help fix something- to enhance tourism.
Sometimes I have to wonder if one of the staff at BFP was horned by a Muslim? Anyways, isn’t it odd that this event happened when the public was at a lull on such issues?
Did anyone watch Fahrenheit 911 or Bowling For Columbine? I am sure Cheney-Halliburton orchestrated something through his puppet Bush Jr with Bush Sr’s blessing!
Isn’t this a good way to ensure Americans stay GOP even without Dubya The Pretender? It’s his last fake term and he has to find some way to pass the baton!
Brian Duffy: “Anyways, isn’t it odd that this event happened when the public was at a lull on such issues?”
Excuse me? A LULL? With radical Muslims all over the world, there is NEVER a lull. Are you a Barbadian? Do you live in Barbados? I think not. Well, Mister, we Bajans are very concerned about the rising Muslim radicalism and we don’t want it here. You can do what you like with Bush and his cronies, I don’t care. But actions speak louder than words and you appear to be doing the ostrich trick. Or are you one of the radical Muslims?
Thistle… H’mmm, with a nick like that you could be of proud Scotch descent, but I have news for you – Scots loved to mingle with the natives and darkies, bosie! So that racial BS don’t cut it here!
So your Bill O’Reilly jingoistic diatribes fly over my head – I am a Bajan, grew up with Mohammed Sa’id’s brother at Kolij, have Dr Nagdy as my physician and I shop at both of Ishmael Adam’s branches. I have been invited as a nasrany (infidel/unbeliever) to not only a mosque on Hart’s Gap but attend a Naw-Ruz feasting, at no time was I shown any airport blueprints nor the latest in C4 plastique!
The worst that happened was to hear one night about how villainous are Israelis, and that did not bother me as I view them as Neo-Nazis (slaves who mimic their conqueror) against poor Palestine!
Has anyone tried to see what the REAL origins of these so-called Caribbean radicals?
Has everyone forgotten how Osame Bin Laden’s brother was a MAJOR business partner with Bush Jr? CNN hushed it up – if you think CNN does not censor then you have not visited Barbados Underground recently!
Have you ever visited the Flash website which categorically proves the 9/11 Pentagon attack was a Tomahawk missile from the good ole US of A?
Grow up Thistle, or do us all a favour & stand in front of a strong wind – a Muslim mess you up too? Instead of getting vex at their business practices, mimic them so as to best them at their own skill! Chupse….
Brian Duffy huh? ‘Fraid you gave yourself away in some of your sentences. Oh, yeah. Now that I know who you are, I won’t waste time with you – i.e. after this, I won’t be answering you again. Just two things I need to correct: If I were descended from “Scotch” I would be whisky. The correct word pertaining to a descendant of Scotland is “Scottish”. As to the spelling of “kolij”??? Oh, yeah, you really gave yourself away there. What makes you think I am a fan of Bill O’Reilly? Have I ever said so? Think before you write again, hear? The Duffy bit doesn’t fool me.
Brian Duffy:
What’s the address of the Pentagon website you referred to?
Wow, so much for the term Free Press, eh? But thanks for the tip on Scottish history, Bill! What erudite debating skills
I Googled it –
try: loosechangeguide dot com/ lcg2 dot html
OR
911research dot wtc7 dot net/ reviews/ loose_change/ pentagon dot html
Patrick Porter: If you’re reading these blogs, though not contributing (don’t blame you), take warning – the Bournvita is on the attack again, but using different ingredients!! (Don’t laugh!). Take care.
I truly resent the implication there – so please leave me out of this, for one thing I know about the difference between Scottish and Scotch!
Duffy is right – so much for a Free Press, if it is free then everyone would use their names and we can insult each other openly, it isn’t my fault you don’t agree with the man
Chase, said; Some Muslim must have really lit a fire under your ass!
Chase, you’re quite right. I made the mistake of assuming they were normal, decent human beings. Probably, the advice which you and others would have offered me, had I asked. A big, mistake! You sound, vainglorious, as if it could n’t happen to you. I hope so, for your sake.
Airbourne:
Checked out those sites, but Brian Duffy says he’s got a site which proves the Pentagon was hit by a Tomohawk.
I don’t believe a 757 could have hit The Pentagon and disappeared, but have never seen the frames not released by DoD showing which type of missile was used.
******************************
Comment by BFP Cliverton
Bull*****.
If you want to discuss some theory that hundreds of Americans conspired to attack and murder Americans on 9/11 and are now concealing this… go someplace else.
Many other sites are happy to take that as a topic along with little green men from Mars etc. Go there.
End of story.
*****************
Additional comment by Auntie Moses…
Cliverton, you been told ’bout your bad words too. Betta watchout or Auntie Moses gonna wup you good ‘an that is de promise. Hear now!
Brian Duffy: Would that be Sa’id from Foundation from Islamic Development (FID)?
“for”
Hey Cliverton:
You think your education is complete now you’re back from the good old USA, it’s only just started!
You are in with a group,BFP, who believe the country is run by a corrupt elite.
I agree.
Where did they learn their tactics , or are they peculiarly Bajan?
If they have got one whole country sewn up, why do you believe they are unique?
Where were your favourite whipping boys, the muslim militants, before the six day war?
Waiting?
For what?
Have a sit down in shady corner, and just consider the events of the last 40 years, and then come back and tell me BS.
If you do you ain’t sat down long enough!
So the six day war created the need for Islamic expansionism in Bim?
I don’t know.
But it certainly expanded Israeli territory into previously Muslim lands.
And Bim will be Muslim land?
The events of the 60s politicised the rulers of muslim states.
Oil was their only counter against American backed Israel.
Those with enough oil treated America on an equal footing, as they knew the precarious state of US reserves.
Those betrayed by USA by opting for Eurodollars were invaded, pillaged and hanged, in the name of necessary regime change, as a second best reason as holders of Weapons of Mass Destruction.
I am no muslim apologist, I abhor terrorism, but let us retain perspective.
Yes, let’s indeed retain perspective, and not debate how Muslims could have existed 3000+ years ago in Judea and Samaria.
Back into perspective: Why we are educating in parochial schools towards world total domination of Islam? Why do we have rules for one that differ from another? Why are women to be treated differently than men? Can these things be constitutionally forced? Are they good for our society in this day and age, or are they ancient fundamental interpretations?
Yes, perspective would be good. Let’s talk about Barbados.
BimBro:
Chase, you’re quite right. I made the mistake of assuming they were normal, decent human beings. Probably, the advice which you and others would have offered me, had I asked. A big, mistake! You sound, vainglorious, as if it could n’t happen to you. I hope so, for your sake.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
Wow….you never cease to amaze me at how you think.Because of some extremists,you degrade a whole people….by your logic I guess Whites are no good,Blacks are no good……are they any good people around according to your logic?
You want people to believe you love this country (which I doubt),yet all you do is cry down Muslims.I dont see them in the courts,hardly ever see them in prison,they are good business people….if you are dealing with the radicals and terrorists then do so but I think to degrade a whole people is very low ,even by your standards.
to YARDBROOM, re:june8th,8:10 am &
BIMBRO re:june9th,10:53am.
You asked for two muslim majority countries where is no civil unrest[i assume due to islamic militants/jihadis etc.].Well here’s 2 ,well like bfp here’s more than 2…………
Bangladesh
Bahrain
Brunei
Burkina Faso [civilwar,but no religious war]
Comoros
Gambia
Kuwait
Krygyzstan
Djibouti
Mali
Mauritiana
Maldives
Niger—not nigeria
Oman
Qatar–there was 1 incident bout 2yrs. ago,brit guy got killed,but as of today there is no evid. of a group,it was 1 person.
Senegal
Sierra Leon
Cote d’ivoire[ivory coast]
they r possibly more where muslims r significant of the pop. ,but less than majority….i’ll let bfp search that for u.
bfp ,by the way ,i found that site [o.p.r.t{ words r jumbled }]that provided you with the list ,nothing but a hate site.i mean it mentioned a ‘maid being tortured by her saudi employers for being lazy’, c’mon what does dat have to do with militants/radical islam/jihad types etc.to besides ,the same saudis were jailed by they peers.But then muslims r perfect so anything they do wrong must be mentioned in the news.
the people behind bfp wont come out and say it but it is evident that the are pursuing a christian evangelical agenda. the hatred they spout about muslims, the right wing evangelical hate sites they always use as sources and the way they see everything in black and white- if u dont agree with them about islam they attack you and call you apologists, moron.
as for people like bimbro, thistle and educationalists, where is your proof that muslims in barbados teach hatred or are interested in “expansionism”?
bimbro is so bigoted he cant see the correlation between his rantings about stopping muslims from entering barbados and the bnp rantings about stopping black people and all non whites from coming to england! but then when jerry and billy and the evangelicans have brainwashed you what can you expect. add in jealousy of the success of asian businessmen all over the world, the fact that some of these same guys probably got horned by a muslim and you have bimbro/thistle/ educationalists and their irrational rage filled rantings.
Can’t anyone ever question 9/11 on this blog without being threatened with expulsion?
Come on BFP …isn’t that a little bit harsh?
We all are not sheep and do not believe everything said by the US.
those figures bfp quotes and the site is full of *&^&
all sorts of unsubstantiated claims, lies, allegations and myths. give me some real figures that have been produced by neutral observers, ngos, human rights organisations, un agencies etc and i will then have a discussion. quote lies from an extremely partisan hate filled site and expect someone to take you serious? stupz
chase,
to speak of 9/11 would mean a discussion about us foreign policy, international politics and economics and would demonstrate to any right thinking person that the world is not some black and white place where it is muslims versus the rest of the world. it would show that much of the islamic radicalism is linked to political situations around the world and the power politics that occur between nations. much of it has nothing to do with religion which is used as a connvenient tool.
however the evangelicals and right wingers need to keep on spouting this rhetoric about islam and keep the people in fear. if there is no bogeyman their churches and oil companies etc wont be as strong as they currently are.
Chase said; Wow….you never cease to amaze me at how you think.Because of some extremists,you degrade a whole people….by your logic I guess Whites are no good,Blacks are no good……are they any good people around according to your logic?
You want people to believe you love this country (which I doubt),yet all you do is cry down Muslims.I dont see them in the courts,hardly ever see them in prison,they are good business people….if you are dealing with the radicals and terrorists then do so but I think to degrade a whole people is very low ,even by your standards.
I can understand what you’re saying, Chase and shan’t attempt to persuade you, any further. Let’s just say that I’ve had a lot of personal experience of them not to mention the international, political knowledge of them which we all have gained.
Cheesecutter, thanks for the effort but I’m afraid, that where they’re concerned, my mind is made up. They’re abominable.
Right Wing, I’ve never actually heard the BNP say that. Have you attended one of their meetings then? Are you actually, familar with BNP policies or are your utterings merely, what you believe BNP policies to be? In my experience, in the UK, (land of FREE SPEECH?) they’re hardly given a chance to say what their policies are, so how you can be so knowledgeble of them is something of a mystery to me. It’s no doubt that they’d want to get rid of/deport some of us and stop more from coming in, but all! Anyway, if they wanted to stop more blacks, as well as asians from entering the UK, I could understand that. It’s not only the BNP who think that they’re too, many blacks and asians here already, many ordinary people do too, including many BLACK , people so, Sir, let’s not try to deceive your readers!
Cheesecutter
Thanks for your list, I am indebted, once again many thanks.
I have no agenda against Muslims our paths rarely cross, I may also add I have no agenda against/for any other religious group.
My only ambition in life is to live in peace with my neighbours, do good to my family and friends, help my neighbours when it is desirous, or I am requested to do so, and improve if I can the country of my birth.
It is not my intention, has never been, or will never be, to encourage anyone to follow a particular religion, either through deed or religious exposition, in essence others can do as they please.
My concerns are that people in undertaking lawful pursuits are being blown to pieces. ( I must ask by whom)
In overseas travel one is subjected to a level of security unknown in previous years. ( As a result of what )
I am told I and others are the enemy, why? Because we are not of a particular faith, therefore we are infidels.
In a little island like Barbados, with no foreign policy of world note, people are being criticised for no other reason than trying to live a peaceful life in our borders, as we have always done, despite the little hiccups here and there.
When I attended school, our only interest was to get a good education. Perhaps I have not been educated enough to understand, as I look around the world blood seems to be pouring from almost every land, I wonder who is causing it.
Rules and laws of countries which have lived in peace for centuries, must be changed to accommodate others who make even more demands.
My only crime is a desire to live in peace, I have no intention to fight far off wars either to dominate or inculcate others. If I do neither means I am ignorant and uneducated that may be so, I wish to continue in my peaceful ignorance.
I always ask myself when someone has something good to offer me, what good has it done to their lives, if the example they set by their actions and their way of life seems unappealing, I say no thanks. In essence they should be the embodiment of their faith, the naked hate and bile I often see and hear is unappealing.
I will now return to my ignorance and solitude, I hope I have not told any lies or accused others of what they have not done.
Chase said; I have no agenda against Muslims our paths rarely cross, I may also add I have no agenda against/for any other religious group.
Chase, you make me laugh. Will you wait until they come knocking at your dooor then before you get a view on them! And does that also, apply to the KKK, or have you had personal experience of them!
Chase; My concerns are that people in undertaking lawful pursuits are being blown to pieces. ( I must ask by whom)
How much more evidence do you need, Chase? Maybe when they start doing it in Bim?
Chase; I am told I and others are the enemy, why? Because we are not of a particular faith, therefore we are infidels.
If I were PM of Bim, I would lock-up anybody in Bim who referred to any Barbadian as an infidel and, if they were a foreigner, deport them afterwards.
Chase; When I attended school, our only interest was to get a good education. Perhaps I have not been educated enough to understand, as I look around the world blood seems to be pouring from almost every land, I wonder who is causing it.
Chase, IT IS OBVIOUS who is causing it. You only need to have the guts to admit it to yourself. Go on man, be a little more courageous.
Chase; I will now return to my ignorance and solitude, I hope I have not told any lies or accused others of what they have not done.
Chase, you can return to your peace and solitude but that’s not going to help your children and grand-children in years to come, to deal with the filth! They may even ask, “and what did you do to help to prevent this situation from arising”? You’re an intelligent man and I think will want to give them a sensible, answer. I don’t think that you’ll be satisfied to say, “well what could I do”? Of course, I could be wrong! ‘Look-out’ for your children, I intend to ‘look-out’ for mine! You should know that they’re too, young and still enjoying the distractions of foolishness, like the internet and i-pods to be too, aware of what’s really, going on and by the time they wake up it could well be, too late. That’s why we’ve got to plan ahead for them. Unless, of course, you simply don’t care what happens to them.
I care what happens to mine! Take an interest and do what you can to secure the future for your children and your people.
Pardon my ignorance Bimbro but in reading your post,it would seem as if you are quoting me.Since I have not said any of the above,could you write it in such a way as not to give one that impression.
The word Chase seems to be stuck in your head……could it be that I am getting through to you…….just a thought 🙂
uhh…..bimbro, yardbroom not chase said those words u were quoting . re; I am told I and others are the enemy, why? Because we are not of a particular faith, therefore we are infidels.
that word can apply to any religion,that is ,can you tell me what a muslim or a hindu or bhuddhist is considered by christians? they will be called infidels. why bcos they do not believe in the concept of the trinity.hence non believers.
I see a lot has happened while I was in the real world! Um, it seems that Mr Bourne found one of the sites about the tomahawk thingy, I think there\’s another where you can buy a DVD? As for me and Bourne the same? We used to clash at Kolij, so I doubt it… Bourne! You remember the cadets?
Ha Ha!
Anyhow if you want more missile stuff, do like the man and search it on Google. I gone for now, as this place starting to get like Zanz – if you agree, you\’re cool but any dissent and you get curse from your ancestors back!
Came across some interesting info after reading some blogs yesterday. If you google Brian Duffy(ll) and pull up the website, scroll down to where it says “Find where Brian Duffy is credited alongside another name”. Put in the name Ian Bourne and you’ll be in for a big surprise.
That associated search on IMDb? My appearing as a cameo in From Barbados With Love? Everyone knows that, what a big deal! This is boring now, all want to reveal yet none declare – deal with the mote in your own eye first.
I have always felt in my interactions with people, either personally, or on the blogs, to extend them a certain amount of courtesy, not for any reason in particular, but simply because that is the person I am.
I will not engage in name calling, or denigration of individuals however much I disagree with their point of view. If others take that course of action towards me, so be it. I will not be sucked into that level of debate or discussion.
When one attains in life, a level of real responsibility and authority it is best to be fair, and always use balance in dealing with people, particularly when you are making decisions that have a great impact on their lives. If I desist from useing intemperate language, or jumping to conclusions, that is simply because of training. I always need evidence before I make a decision, and as near conclusive as the circumstances permit, I have exhausted all I have to say on this subject.
H’mm:
A few comments:
1] Jaghdeo:
This AM, on BBC, the pres of Guyana noted that he had seen the relevant surveillance documents and that there plainly was evidence of a plot.
He did not comment on the implications of one of the apparently implicated being on his way to Iran via Venezuela: Hezbollah has a base in Venezuela, and of course Iran is replete with technical capacity to move from ideas and recon to horrible reality.
So, I think some rethinking on the credibility of the basic claim needs to be done by those who were quick to dismiss as an American propaganda stunt. (And, a revisit of how we form our opinions and attitudes, too . . .)
2] The Pentagon attacks on 9/11
I am a bit disappointed — again — with the level of some remarks above.
Perhaps we need to ask thre Tomahawk missile theorists to account for the whereabouts of Mrs Barbara Olsen after her cell phone call from the hijacked plane in the vicinity of DC, cut off. (For those who have forgotten, she was the wife of ther Solicitor General of the USA at the time, a Cabinet Officer of the USA; and, a media commentator.)
Accounting for the missing aircraft and other passengers would also help.
3] Educationalist and issues of Responsibility
This commetner is right to raise the point that those who propagate a system that predictably turns out a certan fraction of violent radicals have some duties to put in place correctives.
Failing fulfillment of those duties, we have a right to act in our common defence.
4] Issues over Israel and the 67 war . . . .
This is bound to come up, sooner or later. My own conclusion on this matter is that 90% of what most of us think we know on that subject is, unfortunately, simply not so.
I strongly suggest we all take time to look at the discussion by Oran here, to begin to get a more reasonable picture on 1967.
On the broader picture of Israel as the product of a legitimate and successful nationalist movement willing to live in peace and friendship with its neighbours [NB: a good test here is if you know what the names Weismann and Feisal Hussein mean, together with the year 1919 – adn what the agreement betweent hese men was . . .], one can do worse than to start with a 1970 speech by long time Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban here.
Much more exists, and we need to begin to think about the reasonable point of balance on the story.
Key excerpt:
______________
. . . What is at issue now is not the self-determination of the Arab people, which is lavishly assured. Because of their 14 states and their 4.5 million square miles, and their multiple sovereignty, the Arab states face Israel on the wrong side of the balance of equity. Israel is the only nation which stands or falls in history by the way in which this conflict is resolved, yet the basis of the Middle Eastern tension lies in this refusal to regard Israel as an organic part of the Middle East. We find ourselves being victims of a grotesque paradox and fantasy, which regard the Middle East as an area in which Israel’s existence is optional, or illegitimate, or inorganic, or external or alien. Israel inorganic, alien to the Middle East, indeed.
There are 127 members of the organized international community, but there is one state and one alone which speaks the same tongue, upholds the same faith, inhabits the same land as it did 3,000 years ago. There is no parallel in all the history of nationhood for the strength and the mystery of this continuity. So much for the Middle Eastern past. The Middle Eastern present is determined by an international structure which endows Israel for the past 22 years with a right of sovereign equality on the same level as that of any other state. There must be some axiom, there must be some starting point in any international discussion; and the existence of legitimate sovereignties is axiomatic. It is the starting point, it is not the destination, of any negotiating process.
This then is the posture with which Israel faces the world in the long and unending dialogue between the Jewish people and the rest of mankind. Israel’s existence as a sovereign state is for us, not something to be defended, or to be explained, or to be apologized for. It is something to be proclaimed as an inexorable part of historic reality, and those who plan the future without it are building their concepts on foundations of sand.
There are some governments which in a benevolent spirit, offer to secure the consent of the Arab states to the recognition of our right to exist. It is sometimes my duty to say that we do not ask any recognition of our right to exist, because our right to exist is independent of any recognition of it. An international community which can accommodate 127 sovereign states from Afghanistan to Zambia in alphabetical order, from Fiji to Albania in chronological order, with dozens of statehoods, not all of which have such a sharp identity of spiritual and cultural individualism as Israel: such a world community can accommodate a state of Israel within a few thousand square miles and give to the Jewish people, after its long, tormented martyrdom, the opportunity to deploy its energies in creativity and in peace . . .
_____________
5] Clashing with Bourne at Kolij:
You too . . . !
Okay, nuff said for now, on a “borrows” PC
GEM of TKI
Sorry Chase, for attributing things to you which you did n’t say. You know this is n’t a proper discussion forum website and it gets a bit confusing sometimes. I know that you’re a sensible man! 🙂
I don’t know if you’re getting through to me, Chase. I can’t be bothered to read through all of those posts, again but I hope that I’m getting through to you, ALL.
Thanks for the correction and apologies to ‘my mate’, Yardbroom. I’ll sort out all of your thinking, yet!
Cheese, I’ve never heard a christian refer to anybody as an infidel. I think that it’s a disgraceful word and I would ban it. You’d be in for ‘tough-government’, under me, but it would do you all, good!
Yardbroom, re: your latest post; I hope that I have n’t been abusive towards you. Clearly, you’re a gentleman. However, that won’t stop them coming for you and yours when the time comes, if you’re not vigilant and try to make sure it never happens. Believe me, it happened to the Jews. Who could be more erudite than them but looked what happened to them in ’39-’45.
Latest muslim news in Blighty, today; one of them and his brother killed his daughter and stuffed her body in a suitcase because she fell in love with somebody of whom they did n’t approve. And they’e the kind of people who you admire and try to encourage us to! UMBJ (you must be joking!)
Night, Night, Babadus!
More on 1967:
I strongly suggest that onlookers take time to explore the site linked below, on the SIx Day War, to help gain a broader perspective.
Let’s look closer:
1] Telling quotes and timeline:
In particular, there is a page of telling timelined quotes, here, that I excerpt a few items from:
______
March 8th 1965 “We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood” – President of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser
May 13th 1967 Egypt must expect “an Israeli invasion of Syria immediately after Independence Day, with the aim of overthrowing the Damascus regime” [10] Soviet misinformation delivered to Anwar Sadat in Moscow.
–> NB: This misinformation was that there was an Israeli mobilisation to invade Syria. Both Israel and the UN provided the obvious refutation — the mobilised troops simply were not “there.”
–> On th strength of this, Nasser moved 5 inf divs, 2 armoured div, 2 inf Bde and 4 armorured BDE to Sinai, and initiated a plan to cut off Eilat, Israel’s oil port. [Due to US and USSR pressure, the invadsion was called off within minutes of its intended launch, May 27]
–> Nasser also closed the straights of Tiran, the act of war that triggered the 1956 invasion by Israel.
–> With the other Arabs, Israel was ringed by 500 k troops, 2800 tanks, and 800+ aircraft. Mobilisation long maintained would simply accelerate the starvation of the economy and attack against such odds of 2:1 on men, 3:1 on tanks [and most Israeli tanks were Shermans, fundamentally outdated circa 1944, going up against T 54, 55, 62 etc], and 4:1 on aircraft was evident suicide. No wonder the IDF commander, Rabin, had a nervous breakdown, and no wonder the PM had a breakldown while addressing the nation on radio about the issues.
–> NB: at this time, Israel did not control W bank or Gaza, and there was no campaign to create a Palestinian state out of territory annexed [but not generally recognised] by Jordan, or held by Egypt.
May 15th 1967 “Israel wants to make it clear to the government of Egypt that it has no aggressive intentions whatsoever against any Arab state at all” – Israel’s Prime Minister Levi Eshkol
May 18th 1967 “The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed. Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope – to live to see the day Israel is liquidated…There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.” . . . . “As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel….The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence”. – Cairo Radio’s Voice of the Arabs broadcast
–> Final solution, anyone?
–> Nasser had asked the UN force in Sinai be removed, and it was, so the buffer that had preserved peace for 10 years was gone.
–> This also allowed him to cut off Tiran, so Israel could not trade with Africa and Asia, which included Iranian oil shipments [Iran was then under the Shah]
May 19: Israel [will] not initiate hostilities “…until or unless (Egyptian forces) close the Straits of Tiran to free navigation by Israel” – Prime Minister Levi Eshkol message to France’s President de Gaulle.
–> Of course that is exactly what was done, in the teeth of International agreements:
May 22nd 1967 “The Israeli flag shall not go through the Gulf of Aqaba. Our sovereignty over the entrance to the Gulf cannot be disputed” – Egypt’s President Nasser
May 23rd 1967 “[The Arab blockade of Israel shipping in the Gulf of Aqaba is] illegal and potentially disastrous to the cause of peace. …The purported closing of the Gulf of Aqaba has brought a new and grave dimension to the crisis. The United States considers the gulf to be an international waterway.”President LB Johnson
–> Of course, the attempt of the intl community to challenge the blockade by sending though a regatta of maritime nations’ ships, collapsed. Within days of the collapse of such diplomatic efforts, Israel acted in self defence.
–> It did so by launching a Hail Mary strike: they literally bet their entire air force on hitting the Egyptians and knocking out the major opposing air force. It worked, and the rest is history.
–> After the war, they offered to return territories captured in what was plainly a defensive war in the face of a ring of steel, strangulation by act of war, and openly declared intent to wipe out the nation, once there was peace.
–> The joint Arab answer: no peace, no recognition, no negotiations.
–> So, forty years, follow up wars and a lot of tendentious claims notwithstanding, we see here a determined people acting in defence of what they should not have ever had to defend.
–> Yes there is a Palestinian Arab refugtee problem [but there was also a Jewish refugee problem resolved largely by resettlement in Israel], and yes we would like to see peace and the 1947 principle on the ground. But we must facet he fact that every time such a settlement has been in the offing, the Palestinians have gone to terrorist campaigns and “popular” uprisings — most recently in 2000. And, unilateral Israeli withdrawal form Gaza has just precipitated more war and terrorism [in response to perceived weakness] not moving to peace.
2] Connecting dots
In particular, the issue for too many has long been, and on evidence, is still not to have their own nation recognised and living alongside their neighbours and cousins, the Jews: they could have had that in the 1920’s, 1937 [on very advantageous terms], in 1947, in 1967, and in 2000, but rejected that and went back to terrorism and/or war.
When that is coupled to the sort of statements made and never retracted, as well as the types of terroristic tactics used in war, I think it is reasonable to infer that there is a hatred there on too many cases for Jews [not just “Zionists”] and that there is a refusal to recognise that there are other legitimate claims to nationhood in the Middle East — Jews and Kurds especially come to mind here.
That is shameful.
3] What about us?
We, as the victims of oppression ourselves, should look on with understanding and demand:
1] that the ME move on from hatred and murder to willingness to recognise that all peoples have a fundamental dignity based on being made in God’s image,
2] that all nations have a right to reasonable expression of their nationalism but not at the expense of that of others, and
3] certainly should not seek to build their own nationhood by resorting to threats of massacre of other peoples and to acts of bombing kids at a pizzeria or gassing civilians in villages or mass enslavement or genocide or mass rape [as in S. Sudan and Darfur] or the like.
Surely, that much is the least we can do!
GEM of TKI
H’mm:
While I await moderation results, I cannot but observe the consistent resort by commenters who seem to be coming from a secularist progressivist position, to [im]moral equivalency claims that target Evangelical Christians, instead of actually addressing the issue being raised on the merits.
1] Merits vs atmosphere poisoning
Now, if one can actually address a matter on the merits and show that the claims and evidence being used by BFP or others is wrong [as opposed to labelling sources pejoratively and dismissing without consideration] then one has a basis for then commenting thatsomething is wrong on motivation.
But, a look at this and other recent threads will show that just the opposite is happening. It is those who are ducking or dismissing responsible engagement of evidence who are accusing , labelling and dismissing others.
This should stop, as it will only serve to poison the atmosphere.
2] Islamist militancy
Consider instead: there is good evidence if you will only look, that there is such a thing as militant Islamism, and that it has resorted to violence to promote its agenda in the world.
That agenda unfortunately demonstrably ties into a lot of classic Islamic texts and teachings, as well as to the history of Islamic Empire starting in the 620s to 30s in Arabia and by the 730s stretching from India to France. Unfortunately, the more moderate Muslims have not stood forth in strong force to show from Islamic foundational materials, how the Islamists are wrong [we await the strong and definitive voice of Al Ahzar University or the like on this].
In the region, we see denials of properly Islamic foundations for violence but when an el Faisal comes back deported to Jamaica, after 4 years, the region’s Islamic authorities have yet to issue a refutation of the violent teachings in his openly available tapes; which played a key part in his trial and conviction. We have seen several Caribbean Muslims involved in terrotism, and now a case comes up again. Sadly: silence, apart from dismissive denials.
We need to hear from he moderate Muslims, on how they will police their institutions to prevent the trend we are seeing.
3] Evangelicals
And that has little or nothing to do with what Evangelical Christians in the Caribbean believe, teach and do.
Indeed, that is the precise thrust of the ironic headline above.
FYI, some have claimed the name Christian, and have claimed to be doing violence in the name of the Christian faith, especially in past centuries; we can and do show from foundational texts and history that there was no proper foundation for that, and that has been done. Indeed, the last Pope set out on missions of formal apology and penitence,a s a marker of how strongly the churches specific associated with those atrocities have repented of their past sins.
Evangelicals, by sharpest contrast, were last seriously socially active in our part of the world in the C18 – 19, against slavery. Most evangelicals, are disengaged from the public square, to a fault. ( We should be doing more on renewal and reformation to do good in the community.)
Nor is there any Right Wing Monolithic Evangelical voice — just to observe the serious level critiques of the close connexion between come Evangelicals and the Reagan Republicans, e.g. Billy Graham’s public rebuke to Jerry Falwell, and his work behind the Iron Curtain in the 1980’s.
Further to this, a Bible that lays out as the foundation stones of social ethics that rulers should do justice as God’s servants, that neighbour-love does no harm and so fulfills the requirements of core morality embraced in the Decalogue, and that one should look tot he plank in one’s own eye so s/he can see clearly to help one’s brother with sawdust in his eye, cannot be used properly to ground either hate or violence against one’s neighbour.
[Note I here mark the crucial difference between just use of force in defence of the community form enemies foreign and domestic, and unjust — i.e violent — use of force by the state as accountable to God for justice and its defence. In the passage that teaches on this, Paul envisions the pagan, Nero, as the agent of justice responsible under God for that commission. Of course, this was in the days when he was still under the Stoic philosopher and statesman, Seneca’s and Burrus’ tutelage and was acting justly as a result.]
When it comes to Islam, when regional evangelicals did meet together as a body — right there in Barbados in July 2003 — to seriously reflect on it, this is what we had to say, complete with links on why. I daresay one cannot through any fair reading find hate, bigotry or fear-mongering as the core motives in that document.
So, let us move on beyond prejudicial atmosphere-poisoning, and seriously address the matter on the merits. A sober re-examination of the current case in light of President Jaghdeo’s remarks on BBC yesterday morning will help.
GEM of TKI
Oops, sorry failed to close the address.
I sorry now that I did n’t adopt the nom de plume of Realist! – that’s french folk! 🙂
Went out de road this morning and passed a barber shop. Inside was a muslim young man pretending to be being friendly, towards the Jamaican barber. It’s sad to think, therefore, that a year or two from now he could be persuading him to be a suicide bomber.
Ah, some people are so naive!
Bimbro, I read in the Daily Mail this morning that an illegal immigrant has knifed to death a British policeman. Not one word about his race or nationality. Political Correct hogwash. Do you have details?
Thistle, I think that this is the case to which you’re referring. I don’t think they’ve released his identity yet. Probably got to check that they would n’t upset the muslims first. However, I would n’t be surprised if he was one of them. With Blair letting every Tom, Dick and Harry (or should that be Aziz)into the country, unchecked, it’s no wonder we’re being presented with an increase in maniacs!
I’m just hoping that Arthur will have better sense.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007270180,00.html
Bimbro: ARTHUR?? You gotta be joking, mate! He even boasted about employing an illegal Guyanese. I don’t think you can use the name ARTHUR in the same sentence as “better sense”! Actually, when I saw the area in which the incident occurred (Luton), I first thought of Eastern Europeans like Romanians because they’re into all kinds of criminal activities in the U.K. and a lot of them live in that area. However, we’ll wait and see.
Thistle, sorry to hear about Arthur, my friend. As you know, I don’t live there but I keep hoping for the best for Bim. I remember though that the Bajans have returned him to power two or three times, so they obviously, have or had, a certain amount of confidence in him. What’s your assessment of him?
Two further examples of life in ‘wonderful’ Britain.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007270096,00.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007270120,00.html
Bim, please don’t copy these examples of ‘Blair’s ‘wonderful’ Britain’!
I try hard not to think of those people but ‘every now and again something somes back to me’!
For those of you who, unlike me, ‘don’t have the good fortune of living in ‘wonderful Britain’, here’s one of our news items which you may have missed the other day, maybe even yesterday.
One muslim guy gets married and before long he’s encouraging his WIFE to become a suicide bomber!
I don’t think any more needs to be said. Bim, lock ya doors and batten down ya hatches, if you know what’s good for you – to them, at least!
Hi B & T:
Please note, the vast majority of Muslims are decent, law-abiding ordinary people who — from personal experience — make good friends and neighbours.
We should make the proper distinctions between Islam and muslims, and also between Islam and IslamISM, having duly noted hte foundational teachings and examples that give us pause as we see what the Islamists appeal to.
Wrongdoing is a matter of individual action and perhaps oraganisations that promote it, but it is wrong to personally blame a fifth of so of humankind across the board for the actions of maybe 1/10 their number. (We can blame the moderate majority for not properly policing their ranks, but even there we must realise that the median victim of Islamist terrorism is . . . another Muslim!)
So, let us kindly moderate our own statements and thoughts, thence deeds.
GEM of TKI
Hmmmmmmm!
well said kairosfocus, but why the long detail about the 6 day war ? Is it bcos its the 40 th anniv. and you want us to “lest we forget” kind of thingy that the jews do.Thats one thing i admire them for though,jews remind us of everything that someone has done to them,but they will never tell you what they have done to others.
by the way, this post is getting a little drawn out for me now…i think im gonna take a break…..nice talking/discussing though……c ya.
Kairosfocus, you can tell that junk to the marines – it won’t wash with me and I hope that Barbadians won’t be so naive as to be deceived by you. I have muslim neighbours and could write a book about their degenerate, behaviour. However, I won’t do so now.
Chase, I’d heard about the Romanians years ago, before they even started coming here in numbers. We’ve now been told the name of the murderer but not much else. However, it would n’t surprise me if he was a muslim.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/6746975.stm
Kairosfocus, tries to give us the impression that they’re angels. He must be another Bajan delusionist. Now, they’re threatening to sue the Jamaican authorites over the Bob Wolmer business because the Pakistan team were considered suspects. Obviously, if there’s a suspicious death then everybody in the vicinity will be a suspect, until determined otherwise. I so wish I were the judge in any case which they bring. I’d let them spend millions hiring the best lawyers and then I’d find for the other side making sure that they got no compensation at all, and ended up with a massive legal bill!
I’ve got no time for them, man.
By the way, does anybody know what all that bull’s about which Kairosfocus has written when you click on his name/link? I can’t be bothered to read all that foolishness.
Kairosfocus, stop talking bollocks!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007270257,00.html
Hi B:
I think it is fair comment to note that I am anything but delusional about the threat posed by Islamism! [Have a look at the March 30th thread on “Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly” – Bajan Muslim Commenter On Barbados Free Press” and the earlier thread it links to.]
What I am saying is that we need to keep the issue in balance, and recognise that there is a functional common grace deposit of conscience in the vast majority of human beings. (If you are inclined to do so you may read in Rom 2:1 – 15 or so to see this in a foundational Christian teaching.)
That means that even very bad ideologies have a hard time mobilising a critical mass to do truly industrial scale evil. [E.g. the Nazis had to conceal the attempted genocide from the general population, and hunted down the White Rose movement of Catholic students and the like, who published seven broadsheets exposing the first truth about it; estimating 100’s of k murdered.]
In th case of Islam, I am very aware of the implications of the Sword and Tribute verses in Surah 9:5 & 29 respectively, and the history of Islamist expansionism starting with Mohammed himself, then also the implications of a great many derivative Sharia teachings if applied with benumbed conscience and blinded understanding. That is what the Islamists of today appeal to, and in so doing it is obvious that the moderates are having a hard time coming back to them within the system of teachings, thus they are in two hearts. [That is why I counsel encouraging reform from within and being cautious without in the interest of preserving the safety of the community.]
But having said that it is equally evident that the violence we face is from a relatively small minority. So, let us not move beyond what is well-warranted concern to what easily becomes bigotry and prejudice.
I trust that helps
GEM of TKI
Hi Cheesecutter:
I took opportunity to discuss the 6 Day War [being aware that it is the 40th anniversary], because others raised it above, putting it in a quite different and IMHCO quite unwarranted light.
So, I thought it wise to set the record straight: there was a declared intent to annihilate, and there were actions to implement it, including an act of war in the teeth of longstanding international agreements and an invasion attempt that was called off within minutes of the set launch time.
(Israeli intelligence of course was on the ball on that. Given the destabilising nature of modern high-impact heavy firepower weaponry, it is highly unwise to wait for the other guy to get in the first strike; as the 1973 war shows. Under US pressure, the Israelis, who learned of the intended attack fairly late, did not try to pre-empt in 1973 by say hitting attack concentrations before they could launch. Mobilisation was of course very late in starting, and in the Golan 150 tanks were faced with 1500. The Syrians broke through at high cost, but pulled back mysteriously, probably fearing yet another costly tank ambush. To give a measure of the resistance, an Israeli junior officer on a course went on his own to the tank depot, got into a damaged tank with body parts still in it and headed for the front announcing himself as “Force Zviv.” Over 20 – 30 hours, sometimes with up to five other tanks, he fought an astonishing battle, officially being credited with destroying 60 Syrian tanks. But, 150 tanks can’t hold off 1500 even if they knock out hundreds and hundreds of them, and the Syrians broke through. Had they then advanced into the clear, the results would have been incalculable, up to and including regional nuclear war, possibly global. As it was, when the Israelis went over to the offensive, the USSR theatened direct intervention — it had been providing supplies to the Arabs while the fighting was ongoing, both in 1967 and 73. In the latter case, the Americans also intervened to resupply the Israelis. I should note there was an incident in 1969 where Israeli Mirages and Phantoms shot down five Russian-piloted MiGs flying for the Egyptians during the so-called War of Attrition.)
So, we can show that the Israelis in 1967 were not at all setting out on empire-building, but on survival in the face of a credible threat of annihilation. Their Hail Mary strategy of betting their air force worked [never mind the nervous breakdown by Rabin the Defence Chief, and the public breakdown of the PM during a speech while trying to reassure the public . . . ], and so they turned the tables on those who set out to wipe them out. In international law and in basic fairness, those who take territory used as platforms for aggression against them, through a defensive war, have every right to hold on until there is a reasonable settlement, for the obvious reasons. Nor, on the immediate record of the UN’s dismal failure with peace keepers in Sinai — U Thant pulled out as soon as Nasser asked, could the Israelis trust a UN force to keep the peace in the territories so taken. And, all in the context where had the Arabs simply lived by the spirit of the 1919 Weizmann-Feisal agreement on the joint mutually supportive development of the Jewish and Arab nations in the Middle East, that region would now be one of the most advanced, prosperous, peaceful parts of the world. Ah, the saddest words that are ever heard: what might have been . . .]
As for the idea that Jews memorialise the stories of how they have been oppressed by outsiders while concealing their own sins from others, we can start refuting that idea by simply reading the Bible.
In current times, the Israelis have had a very lively and ongoing internal debate on the sins of the current state of Israel. When Israelis have been implicated in serious wrongs, they have often investigated at the highest levels, and have not been remiss to censure and punish. [Look at what just happened to their president, who stands accused of sexual harassment, and the investigation of and findings against Sharon in the aftermath of 1982 (he was blamed for not foreseeing and blocking what the revenge-seeking “Christian” militias might be likely to do after the assassination of one of their leaders — the President of the country as memory serves), also the recent one on the financial affairs of his party. And much more.]
So, again, let us put this in context.
GEM of TKI
BTW: I still await a serious addressing of President Jagdeo’s remarks a few days ago on BBC Caribbean report, from those who who were scoffing above on the basic credibility of the plot-claims. (Notice how in this Miami Herald report, his concern is to underscore thatt he evident plotters were not representative of either the Muslim or the wider community in Guyana and the Caribbean.)
I read the first few lines of ‘Kairosfocus’s FIRST reply, just now, before I decided I’d had enough, and here’s why!
Hardly, had the ‘ink dried’ on my reply this morning when I went down to discover that my muslim neighbour had hung his carpet out on the railing not only in front of his window but also, in front of mine, therby significantly, obscuring my view out of my own window, inspite of my telling him about this before. Well I went out for e rase but he was n’t in, so I’ve pulled the carpet out of my way. The Paki fu*ker is younger than I am but I don’t care. The next time I see any of them I’m going to give them my last warning, then I’ll take more serious action.
He’s younger than me but, if necessary, we’ll come to blows. I in letting these muslim sh*ts run roughshod over me. If necessary, I’ll go down fighting! And then cretins like Kaiosfocus talk sh*t about ‘taking a balanced view’! I feel like hanging he!
All the muslims around here are sh*ts!
B
I understand your irritation with your particular neighbour, but we need to restrain ourselves in a public forum.
Secondly, believe I have said what is only fair to a very large majority of the Muslim people whom I have known and respected over the years of my life.
I say that, full well knowing the Islamism problem and the problem with its roots in founding documents and history. [Why not take a look at my always linked, when you feel a little better.]
GEM of TKI
bimbro, u have a serious problem.go and see someone in anger management.i certainly hope u r not black or abajan,bcos u dont behave like one.
it seems that u have aproblem with muslims/asians and immigrants. and if u claim to be a bajan u r an immigrant too. when u look at people and think them as s**t, people will do the same to you. send alitttle love…what goes around comes around. go to the paki[thats what u call them ,its insulting though] and give him alittle gift and explain to him nicely.
fear is the path to the dark side.fear leads to anger.anger leads to hate,and hate leads to suffering…………..i see much fear in you bimbro.
the dark side clouds everything.
Cheesecutter, it’s normal to have a temper when the situation arises. Anybody who tells you that it is n’t is trying to make you into a drone, or eunuch i.e. a pretty, useless person. You should think about it!
Fear, so you’re a psychiatrist now. Oh, please, Cheesecutter! Stop talking foolishness.
All this rage over a carpet Bimbro?
Geez man…good thing you don’t live in the Orleans or Nelson street.
Why not move?Find another place to live?If you remain there it will certainly lead to blows..which by your own words you may not win.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if we hear on BBC…..Muslim kills neighbor over carpet hanging row.
Chill Bimbro…dont be the next news item ya hear.
Bimbro:
What does pro-black mean?
I’m pro-equality. I can define that for you if you like.
I feel attitudes like yours are why our society cannot PROgress but I will await your explaination. Maybe I am wrong.
Thanks a lot!
P.S. It is you on the nation blogs too? Or is another contributor using the same screen name.
Hi Chase, I’m surprised and disappointed by your reply. It is n’t about a carpet by about somebody blocking my vista. I thought you would be able to see that. Maybe, you’re lucky and live on the 12th floor, so nobody can block your view, unless they erected another building, of course!
I wish it were so easy to move. Anyway, I’ll bear in mind the remainder of your remarks. If I could, I would n’t live anywhere near ANY of them!
Guess we’ve taken this as far as it’ll sensibly, go.
Cheers.
oh have a sense of humor Bimbro…sometimes you laugh because the alternative could be ….well you know.
There are other ways to deal with your immediate situation,what about the police?
Actually I live in the terraces ..my nearest neighbor is 50 metres in 3 directions but some does burn stuff on sundays .I am downwind.I spoke to them nicely and respectfully and it stopped.
bimbro, u say if u could u wouldnt live near them. does that mean that after all your love for the eng english way of life, the englishman doesnt want you in his neighbourhoods or u are excluded because u cant afford to live there and so u have to live among the immigrants you so hate. what a loser!
when kairofocus who comes here and spouts his evamgelical diatribe can tell you to tone down your rantings u know u must be a real loony case! u and thistle need to go to a brixton reggae club and chill!!!
BFP, PAKI F(*&%^ IS A RACIST AND DEROGOTARY TERM AND BASED ON PAST WARNINGS AND BANNINGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE RACIST TOWARDS OTHER GROUPS/ETHNICITIES/RELIGIONS, BIMBRO SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO SOME FORM OF DISCIPLINE. HIS USE OF THE TERM PAKI F*&*^* IS TANTAMOUNT TO SOMEONE COMING HERE AND USING THE WORD NIGGER OR HONKIE ETC.
*****************
from BFP
Hi WDWM
We didn’t notice the word “Paki” because we don’t – just don’t have time – to read every comment posted.
I agree that “paki” is a derogatory racially charged term and we don’t allow such words here unless the purpose is to discuss the word. I will go back and eliminate this word… WARNING to those who use the word “Paki”… not allowed.
Thanks WDWM
Whiteydontwantme …. go to school you idiot.
Thanks Chase, I expect you mean well. You’re fortunate to have human beings for neighbours and, as I explained, I’d spoken to him before, about it.
Too minor to call the police, at this stage. Could n’t look-out for him forever and eventually, gave up. Thought he’d come knocking at my door last night. I was ready fuh he. 🙂
Anyway, he has n’t done it again so far, today so maybe he’s learnt. I guess we’ll sort it when we meet face-to-face. I can’t bother to go around there again. He knows where I live and can come and see me anytime.
You live in the terraces. I’m not sure which country you’re in Chase but, in the UK, terraced refers to a string of houses all ‘stuck to each other’! Yours, clearly, is n’t like that. Congratulations! You sound rich. Must give me your details! 🙂
I used the ‘P’ word to mean an abbreviation of Pakistani. Soon they’ll be saying that Pakistani is offensive, too! I can’t see that the ‘P’ word comes anywhere near to being as offensive as the ‘N’ word but I shall try to avoid using it again. I had actually finished the subject but Chase’s response prompted me to reply.
‘Whiteydon’twantme’; at least I did n’t actually use the ‘N’ word in my reply, like you did.
Apart from that, I have n’t got any time for what further, you said. I would suggest that you took Anonymous’ advice.
Cheers!
**************
BFP comments
The word “Pak” is used by Pakistani ex-pats to describe themselves. “Paki” has become a derogatory term. It is only a slight difference but an important one for our Pakistani friends.
Chase, I keep trying to leave this subject alone but everytime I keep seeing something else to remind me of it! Tonight, it was a tv prog. about a muslim lifeguard in Australia. To my enormous, surprise they’re there in significant number, too. This woman wants to be a lifeguard but she can’t wear a swimsuit like everybody else, she has to wear one which incorporates trousers, and the hijab – and they’ve allowed her to!
I can remember when I used to see so many sikhs (followers of the sikh religion in the UK with their turbans WHICH IT WAS A MORTAL SIN FOR THEM TO REMOVE). I can even recall a case of a chap getting into trouble with the law for knocking one off a sikh’s head, it was considered so offensive.
I don’t know the reason, but I CAN’T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I’VE SEEN A SIKH wearing a turban in this country. I’ve no reason, at all, to assume that they’ve all emigrated, so I can only assume that, in large measure, they’ve abandoned the turban, and are trying harder to adapt. The Jews wear the little cap at the back of their head so you would hardly notice it was there but, the muslims, oh no, everybody must change, for them!
There’s only one people who I detest more than the muslims and that’s the governments who are sewing serious, future problems for our countries (as we have already seen) by letting them into our countries. I’m not telling anybody else to detest them, I’m simply expressing my own opinion.
How do you feel about the hijab? To me, it’s disgusting. I keep well away from them and am glad that I don’t have to go to school/college etc. or work with any of them.
On a different note;
BFP, hello and thanks for the stirling (or should that be Bajan) work which you’re doing on our behalf. Sometimes I wonder if it’s fully, appreciated. Do you feel as though you’re making any real, progress in your work? You must know that some people think that you’re sensationslist. What do you say to that accusation?
Regards.
Bimbro: When you consider the size of Australia, Muslims aren’t in such huge numbers. Melbourne probably has the most, but the heartening thing is that the Australian P.M. and Government won’t stand for any nonsense from them. They have been made to understand in no uncertain terms that they have to toe the line in that country, and abide by Australian laws and if they don’t like it, they can get out. God knows what will happen if this present Australian government changes, however. I think perhaps they’ve bent the rules a little on Bondi Beach, Sydney, because Sydney, like Melbourne, is a very cosmopolitan city.
thistle i have been to southall and other asian parts of the uk and i see tons of sikhs with their turbans! there was even an allowance for them to carry around their ceremonial dagger. actually one even plays for england! it must really make you angry to see the english team with asians playing on it. a muslim, hindu and sikh representing england. hahahaha
as for the hijab if the women choose to wear it that is their problem. if they are forced to then that is another matter. all the muslim women i came across when i was at university in the uk were highly intelligent ambitious women who chose to cover their hair.
what i find dispicable is the angry hateful rantings you and bimbro engage in. go and take an anger management class or go to brixton and hang out in a reggae bar with some jamaicans. hahaha
Whiteydontwantme: You are even more ignorant than someone else on here suggested earlier today or yesterday. I have never made mention – on this blog, or any others – of Sikhs. So don’t be accusing me of such. UNIVERSITY? You?? What a laugh.
Thanks for the reply, ‘Thistle’. As you know, it’s not the size of the country but of the population which matters. I don’t immediately, know the size of Australia’s population but the really, important point here is the insidious, ‘creeping’ nature of the beast. Give them a few more years and they’ll be forming the government of Australia not to mention that their numbers will have increased manifold.
As you said, heaven knows what will happen when the government changes to be replaced by one with a softer attitude towards them and Australia is only one country. As you know, they’re just about everywhere these days, including poor little Bim. I’m so sorry for the Bajees. What a brainless, ******* your PM must be!
Still hoping to hear from Chase.
H’mm:
It seems, sadly, those who so confidently asserted dismissive claims above on the substantial matter of the JFK case are now plainly unwilling to address the remarks of the Guyanese president, in which he indicates that through having been shown some of the evidence, he is convinced there is a case to answer to.
Next, the underlying challenge to moderate Muslims to address the IslamISM problem, after several threads over the course of months now and many direct requests, is also not being addressed. That has serious implications, if we will but think about it.
Third, instead of responsible addressing of a serious matter, we can observe the old “shoot the messenger if you don’t like the message” tactic. Here, WDWM is a classic:
“when kairofocus who comes here and spouts his evamgelical[sic] diatribe can tell you to tone down your rantings u know u must be a real loony case”
Let’s see:
1] Diatribe: “a forceful and bitter attack” [OED]. A simple glance above or elsewhere will suffice to show that bitterness and bitter attacks are not what I have done, period.
2] Instead, I have adduced material but often unknown or ignored facts, raised reasonable analytical and/or prudential inferences and responded to issues raised, some of which can be characterised as attacks [e.g. being invidiously compared to Nazism in a previous thread . . . still not apologised for] On the subject of attitude and argument relative to Islam and to Islamism, I have provided [1] an always linked summary on Islam which is analytical not bitter in tone, and [2] a reflective response to the challenge posed by Islam to the region made by evangelicals, which BEGINS with an admission of the sins of the church. In short, we clearly see here the rhetoric of dismissal by attacking the man instead of addressing the issue.
3] I have repeatedly pointed out here and elsewhere that there is a difference between ordinary people going about their ordinary lives who are Muslims, and a relatively small [but globally absolutely large ~ 100 – 150 millions] minority who are a militant, global threat. (I find it interesting that pointing out such facts and issues is routinely equated to bitterness, bigotry or hatred in the perceptions of many of our certificated elites. That is itself telling on their level of thinking relative to critical thinking skills — a point where I do openly confess to having an agenda: I want our region’s education system fixed on this, bigtime. Indeed, over 20 years ago I once initiated and held a meeting with the Use of English staff on one of UWI’s campuses on this very topic.)
4] Now, above, when B raised what is clearly evidence of invidious stereotyping and generalised rage, I therefore posed corrective remarks, consistent with the above.
It is therefore simply beyond the pale for WDWM to accuse me of “diatribe.”
Perhaps, he can cogently address the claims and issues I have made on the merits?
If he will not, and will not apologise for what clearly constitutes a personal attack, then that is strong evidence that he has chosen to dismissively [and demonstrably falsely] accuse rather than open his mind to address unwelcome material facts and issues.
GEM of TKI
Kairofocus,
I read your plausible “self defense” exposition of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and wonder how you fit UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 339 into your theory.
That should be 242 and 338
Hi Inkwell:
A fair enough point, though strictly speaking well off-topic for this thread. [The silence on the main topic, and on associated ad hominems etc, sadly, is telling . . .]
It is worth discussing, noting that 242 and the later 338 are after-the fact relative to both 1947-9 and 1967. (You might want to browse the document here for more than a comment can say.)
1] 242:
This Nov 22, 1967 UNSC resulution needs to be discussed in light of the Khartoum Arab League’s three no’s resoluiton of Sept 1, 1967, where they refused to recognise, negotiate with or come to peace with Israel. This is after three major campaigns and 20 years of continuous low-level war and state-sponsored or supported terrorism against Israel.
We should also note that on June 19 1967, Israel had offered to withdraw from just-captured territories [note my non-use of “the”] in exchange for real peace. (Post 1979, and 1994, we have seen that Israel has done just that relative to Egypt and Jordan. There was a small slip of undisputed Jordanian territory held since 1967. The W Bank though “annexed” by Jordan in 1949, was not generally so-recognised. From 2000 on, Israel has tried to negotiate acceptable lines with the Palestinian Arabs, and has now unilaterally withdrawn from Gaza. In W B, the PA actually controls the territory in which most Arabs live. The security fence is to be understood in the context that the fences in both WB and Gaza have unquestionably reduced suicide bombing and sniping, and that Israel handed over air bases, oil wells it developed and a town when it withdrew from Sinai, and has handed over considerable property in Gaza. )
The key element of 242 is: “1. [UNSC] Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles: (i) Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.” [It also goes on to raise issues of freedom of navigation, resolution of refugee problems, and for de-militarised zones etc. All of this sounds of course fairly hollow given U Thant’s critical blunder in the run-up to the war.]
The Resolution 242 is often held to be that Israel is to withdraw from all of the territories it captured during the fighting, as a premise for peace.
In fact, though, the UNSC specifically and deliberately rejected the USSR’s desire to insert such language, reckoning that the 1949 armistice lines were just that: ceasefire lines that were temporary [and unworkable in the long run] by nature. US UN Amb Goldberg’s comment on the implications of the events in the run-up to fighting are telling on this. [Cf. p. 40 in the linked.]
Of course, I beg to remind all concerned that there were TWO relevant refugee crises in the ME: the largely self-induced Arab one, and the oriental Jewish one. In the exchange on numbers and treasure, the balance was comparable or even in the Arabs’ favour. That Israel is a land of refuge for a longstanding native ME Jewish population (comprising the largest single group of Jews in Israel) who cannot reasonably go “back” to the countries that drove them out, lends further legitimacy to Israel.
2] 338:
This one is post 1973 war, in which the Israelis’ holding of the Golan and the Sinai in light of failure to come to a settlement, was both the buffer that allowed them to sustain a massive surprise attack on the holiest day in their calendar, and a part of the rationale for the attack. (But observe the contrast Israel — Jun 19 and Arab League –Sept 1, 1967.)
Key points: ” 1. Calls upon all parties to the present fighting to cease all firing and terminate all military activity immediately, no later than 12 hours after the moment of the adoption of this decision, in the positions they now occupy; 2. Calls upon the parties concerned to start immediately after the cease-fire the implementation of Security Council Resolution 242 (1967) in all of its parts; 3. Decides that, immediately and concurrently with the cease-fire, negotiations shall start between the parties concerned under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East”
Of course, the first part is the ceasefire on the 1973 lines. The second calls for implementing 242. The third calls for renunciation of the 1967 Khartoum resolution –from 1948 on Israel has been quite willing to discuss with the Arabs.
The word “decides” in Clause 3 harks back to, makes explicit and underscores the UN Charter Article 25 by which UN member states “agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council.” Thus, it is co-joined with 242 to give it explicit binding force under the UN Charter. (One can of course argue that 242 was such a “decision” in its own right . . .)
That means that the Khartoum declaration is being decisively rejected, in terms that since they are binding mean that those who refuse negotiations or settlements are in violation of the UN Charter — not that this little inconvenience is ever really discussed.
In short, both 242 and 338, understood in context, fit in with what I have summarised above, and with what many others have discussed in details with appropriate documentation.
GEM of TKI
BTW,
On going back, I see I should comment on the stuff you get when you click my name. (In response to B’s remark on what he can’t be bothered to read.)
The linked page so happens to be in the main a summary of the generally accepted, well-documented and undisputed history of the origins of Islam and an outline of its major concepts, practices and teachings, in the further context of the challenge to the Caribbean and to those who will have to face it on the ground as Christian leaders at the first (small group — comparable to Sunday School teacher) level.
In case B doesn’t know, Guyana and Suriname, both members of Caricom, are now members of the global organisation of Islamic states, OIC.
Next, Dr Afroz of UWI History Dept [Mona] and others contend that the Caribbean’s historical and spiritual roots are largely Islamic, and that the slaves were more or less forcibly converted to Christianity, with special reference to Jamaica. [Of course the ignorance of the difference between being baptised to become, say, an Anglican and making the individual decision to become a Baptist was missed, as is the link to the foundation of Jamaica’s sense of national identity; which is why Sharpe, Bogle and Gordon are all baptists and National heroes of Jamaica . . .)
The intent of this claim is to invite us to “revert” to Islam. The article corrects the historical claims [commenting briefly and giving onward links], and goes on to address the wider issue of Islam, with a brief mention of Black Muslims. It then addresses theological challenges and issues.
I hope that onlookers will use it to familiarise themselves with the issues at stake.
GEM of TKI
Kairosfocus, thanks for that explanation of your link. You’ve saved my poor brain from having to do a lot of reading although your very educated style of writing nearly had me giving up and falling asleep again. No, it’s very nice. You must have been to Combermere!
All I can say is that after reading your above, I feel as sick as sh*t now! Guyana and Suriname both members of the OIC?!!!! OMG!!!!
Plus the rest of it?!!!! I think the best thing I could do is to go back to sleep because it very much looks as though the caribbean may be lost, already or, it won’t be long before it is!
What unforgivable, folly on the part of our leaders!
B
Thanks.
Yes, both Suriname and Guyana are members of the same OIC that could not objectively define “terrorism,” for that would implicate you know just who . . .
[For the Dictionary-challenged: “the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.” OED. Here, it is wise to make a distinction between just and unjust — i.e violent — use of force by legitimate authorities in the community. The police and courts and armies etc have a legitimate role, but where they go beyond that, they are oppressive. Terrorists may or may not be a part of a state’s apparatus. ]
The reason for joining OIC, I suspect, is that there are enough Muslims in both countries that the Gov’ts felt it helpful to access OIC as a source of development funding.
Perhaps, a bit naively, in my estimation.
However, maybe we can work it the other way, based on the Caribbean’s history as a region in which we have by and large learned to move on beyond an oppressive past, and live together in comparative harmony. So, perhaps, through Caricom, we can eventually help put to OIC, OAS, and the UN etc a perspective that moves the world towards peace. That will of course require a new generation of geopolitical thinking in our region.
Personally: I am actually both a Campionite [Jamaica] and a Harrisonian. I know of at least two of us who fit that profile.
Cheerio
GEM of TKI
Hi ‘K’,
Are you saying that you’re a Jamaican?!!!!
If you are, then ‘blouse and skirt’!!!!!!!!!! 🙂
I love the jamaican patois just as I do the Bajan!
I used the above Jamaican expression to a jamaican ‘friend’ of mine recently, and to my surprise, he did n’t seem too, impressed. I got the impression that he felt he was too, ‘posh’, now that he’s grown up to use the term. He did n’t mind when we were kids growing up together. Anyhow, matter for him. Me still like de talk yeh sir!
Re: above – I think you should be on one of those committees/organisations, etc! 🙂
Kairosfocus,
There are a few facts which sophistry cannot obliterate.
1. Millions of Arabs were uprooted violently from their homes and evicted from their land to create the state of Israel in 1948. Those people, (yes, they were people too) had rights which were trampled. Most of them were packed into Gaza and the West Bank and the rest became refugees, mainly in camps in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.
2. After its victory in the 1967 war, Israel instituted a military occupation and annexation of Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights.
3. According to the UN Charter, the acquisition of territory by war is illegal.
4. UN Security Council Resolution 242 of November 1967, called for Israel’s withdrawal from these territories. It was passed unanimously (that means that even Israel’s sponsor, the USA voted in favour).
5. Israel has for the past forty years defied UNSC Resolution 242, subsequently affirmed by Resolution 338.
In the same period Israel has sought to consolidate its illegal occupation of these territories by continuous building and expansion of settlements for Jews and the systematic destruction of Arab infrastructure, including agricultural crops.
The recent withdrawal of settlers and military from Gaza while not a totally empty gesture, is negated by almost total imprisonment of its Arab occupants, its borders, both land and are controlled by Israel and movement in or out stifled, its air space is controlled by Israel, trade in or out is stifled by Israel. Israel starves the Palestinian government of financing by withholding its tax revenues.
In the West Bank, Israel continues its militaty occupation, continues to expand its settlements, continues to stifle the everyday lives of Palestinians with travel restrictions and checkpoints. It is attempting to consolidate its hold on West Bank Territory by building a wall around its acquisitions, further disrupting and isolating Arabs.
The west continues to deny Palestinians the right of resistance and to label their attempts to oust a military occupation and reclaim their land terrorism, even though the occupation has been condemned by the UN and the US has used its veto on innumerable occasions to frustrate the efforts of the world body to enforce Resolution 242, an obscene hypocrisy if ever there was one.
All the rest, including the Six Day War 40th anniversary Guide to which you referred, is a sophistical attempt by Israel and the US to legitimize the land grab.
A people driven to desperation will react desperately. It is not difficult to see why many are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to strike a blow at their oppressors, but no one hears their final plea. Let justice be done in the Middle East and the violence will cease.
***********
BFP Comments
You say “Let justice be done in the Middle East and the violence will cease.”
“Justice” being the total destruction of all Jews left in the region, according to just about any of the Arab countries. There used to be millions of Jews living in countries throughout the Middle East. Iraq and Iran had hundreds of thousands of Jewish citizens not so long ago. All gone now as the new more violent Islam rises.
You say nothing about the fact that Jordan used to own the West Bank, and that Jordan sent troops to attack the Palestinians at various times in history when they wanted citizenship and turf from Jordan.
Using the Middle East as a tool to explain Islamist violence is a dangerous and incomplete practice.
How does what happened in the Middle East make the Islamists murder Christian school girls in Indonesia and Thailand? The Thai and Indonesian Islamists say they are doing Allah’s will as instructed in the Koran. That is what THEY say when they slit the throats of mothers and babies. THEY say that their motivation is entirely religious to bring about a worldwide Islamic government.
Islam has bloody borders everywhere because while the rest of the world’s religions have had their reformations, Islam still says “join us or pay tribute as second class or die”.
“Let justice be done in the Middle East and the violence will cease.” ???
Define Justice, Inkwell. Just what are you going to do with Israel and the Jews? Where are you going to put them to achieve your “justice” ?
Inkwell:
That is very well said it is time that people start to look at the real issues in the Middle East rather rather than search for a scapegoat.
On your point of US hypocrisy…none is more blatant the failure of Resolution 242.
For me the reals test for them lies in their own backyard.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-posada20apr20,0,3745933.story
BFP
Your comments are totally irrelevant to the point I am making. There is simply no connection between the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and the activities of extremist Islamists in the far east. Don’t try to confuse the issue.
OK Inkwell, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
In context of the article (which is about the JFK terror plot) we think we have a point that Islamist world domination is a significant factor in the Middle East killing.
But let’s say that you are correct, so we’ll stick with your point…
ONce again… define the “justice” you are looking for. What are you going to do with Israel and the Jews and Christians who live there?
Fine to say “Justice” but unless you can define what that is, it really contributes nothing to a solution.
The Arabs generally say that “justice” is the total destruction of Israel and the Jews, not to mention what they have done to Christians throughout the Middle East.
Please define your “justice”.
BFP and their position on Islam is beyond sad and makes the rest of Barbadians look like the ignorant and ill read fools that these guys here represent them to be. This group of so-called ‘Christians’ who invent scandal (and their newly learnt word, ‘hyperbole’) for the sake of sensationalism and extoll the virtues of rum should really do some self examination first before they brand an entire faith by its aberrants. Sometimes the drivel you write is so disgusting, and please do the manly thing and don’t reply and accuse me, a US citizen, of being part of the Barbados government in some invented plot against you, ok?
Welcome back Chase, so you can’t answer the posts which I addressed to you above????
Did any one at BFP do any follow up on the JFK plot?
Last time I checked .the credibility of the ‘supposed’ informant was at stake.
Turns out he was ..sorry….IS a known drug dealer{millinos in cocaine} who is looking at the rest of his life behind bars,who turned informant for a plea bargin.
The so called maps found ,turned out to be nothing more than Google Earth,which I have on my Firefox browser(damn….dey coming for me)Which I use for fun.
Terrorism is bad and wrong but I think one still has to be careful when branding people before all the evidence is heard or presented.
I just think that this climate of fear generated will only help to destroy innocent lives.
Before anyone gets their nickers in a bunch….I am not saying these men are either innocent or guilty…just looking at the evidence.
Bimbro:
Do you have a crystal ball?I did go to Bathsheba this weekend,so the little one could enjoy a day at the beach with fresh Atlantic air.I gotta watch you .
I will go look at them now.My other comment is awaiting mod.
Bimbro:
How do you feel about the hijab? To me, it’s disgusting. I keep well away from them and am glad that I don’t have to go to school/college etc. or work with any of them.
——————————————————————————————————————————–
To be honest ,I have no problem with Muslims wearing them for their religious values.
The thing is ,now with all the security measures being implemented all around ,there is now a line drawn between security and religious adherence.
For instance,you cannot go into a bank with a full-face helmet here anymore due to security reasons.Therefore I dont agree with a hijab being worn there either.I also dont like the idea of conducting business with anyone who I cant see their faces but I also understand/respect their religous beliefs.
Justice in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is the implementation of UNSC Resolution 242. The minimum required is the establishment of an autonomous Palestinian state based 1967 borders, that is, including east Jerusalem. Palestinian governments have been calling for this for forty years, but the rapacious and greedy Jews have been relentless in their determination to maintain their hold on the illegally acquired land at any and all costs.
I know that it is futile to try to get you to understand, far less admit that the establishment of the state of Israel on Arab land in 1948 was WRONG. However, moderate Arabs do not call for the righting of this wrong by the destruction of Israel. They acknowledge that the two state solution is the only practical and realistic way out of the quagmire, but Israel has continued to frustrate this resolution by seeking to perpetuate their land grab and have as a result spawned and nurtured extremism.
Well it looks like Canada has just launched a No-fly list…. There’s lots of back and forth but one comment sure sticks in my head.
(quote)
Ottawa going ‘overboard’ with no-fly list, expert warns
Last Updated: Sunday, June 17, 2007 | 3:41 PM ET
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/06/17/nofly.html?ref=rss
“Barry Prentice, the director of the Transport Institute at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, said Transport Canada’s Specified Persons list is “sort of a charade” to make people feel like they have greater security.
“I don’t think it’s going to help one bit,” Prentice told CBC News on Sunday. “What terrorist is going to travel with their own name and passport? It’s like a bank robber using his own card to have a heist.
“These people are going to steal or create a forged passport and identification if they’re going to do anything anyway.”
(end quote)
This reminds me… The CARICOM visa that expired a while back…. Did the government say if anybody did not report back to their plane to leave the CARICOM area????
Hi Chase, thanks for replying. No, I don’t have a crystal ball, it’s just that Bathsheba is one of the few excursion spots which I can instantly, recall in Bim, also Bellplaine, if it’s still there. I wonder which parish that’s in!
Hope you had a good time. I could swear you were distracted by a woman – but, no problem, you sound very respectable. No need to watch me, ‘C’. I’m in the UK. Spying on people is n’t my kind of thing, anyway! Could do with some of that clean, atlantic air, myself!
Guess we’ll have to disagree on the hijab. There has to be a limit to how far a person is allowed to go, religion or no religion. Would n’t allow it in MY Barbados! Unfortunately, I’ll never be ‘the govenor’. That privelege has fallen, at least for now, to the fortunate, Arthur!
Inkwell:
You are perfectly correct in all that you have posted.Many try to dwell on the extremists and try to fool the world that it is the Palestinians fault.If (and I dare any ) people would look at the facts concerning the Middle East situation with an open mind ,one would see that Israel has done nothing substantial to help with the peace process.
They (Israel) have continued to humiliate ,degrade and destroyed the life of the average Palestinian with land seizures,curfews,checkpoints to the point where there is no hope.One can only imagine how this feels.Sadly it is not the sentiments of all Israeli people but it is the ones in charge who has this point of view who continues every day with their collective punishment of a people.
All the UN and USA do is to continue to play with words (the,all)in resolution 242,while the Palestinians suffer.
Remember the USA and UN also played with a word (genocide),while over 800.000 Tutsi died.
All of this rhetoric can go on forever without anyone winning.
But forget the main players for a moment and turn your attention to what is happening in Lebanon. This is as sterile a situation as you can get in that region but Syria is determined to screw these people who from my perspective are trying very hard to distance themselves from all of the other insane factions but they will not allow it.
Israel is a small state surrounded by aggressive, war mongers and though they are by no means faultless they have every right to do what it takes to defend themselves.
The BS going on between Israel and Palestine was going on long before Iraq, Afghanistan et al. We have just seen that even Fatah and Hamas can’t trust each other
Bimbro:
Dont know how long those places in St.Andrew are going to be there though,almost certain I heard something about development up there…just have to wait and see.
Trust me ,the only woman who distracts me right now is my daughter…Patrick Porter if you are reading she is growing up fast,thanks again for that talk we had ,I will always remember it.
We’ll agree to disagree on the hijab but just let me say I understand your point.
If it comes to disagreement over the interpretation of resolution 242, concerning the agreed terminology/words in resolution 242 here is where one finds oneself:
The wording: ‘Territories’ (true) versus ‘The territories’ (false)
Interpretation: ‘Some territories’, or ‘All territories’ (depending on what side one is on it is not possible to be right, as one contributor claims to be)?
There will probably not be an end to the disagreement or conflict between the parties.
242 also speaks to the right to live within secure boundaries.
What will the surrounding countries do if Jerusalem is never interpreted into the 242 resolution? Will they accept a Palestinian state? Will there be peace with Israel? Probably not.
A moderate secular person might say, let it be so and let there be a Palestinian state for the sake of the citizens.
A moderate Muslim might (or might not) say, no peace without Jerusalem.
An Islamist might say, no peace till the Jews are driven into the sea.
These are some of the the issues.
The religious Israeli Jew prays for the peace of Jerusalem and sings psalms.
The secular dream of a just and lasting peace.
Where is the middle ground?
And would Islamism in the Caribbean go away if Israel did?
I await your rage.
Thanks Chase. Don’t know what ‘places in St Andrews’ you’re referring to – been away too long – but thanks, anyway!
H’mm:
Busy overnight . . .
1] B: Jah-mek-ya?
Yes, I am a Jamaican, from a family that was based in Barbados for 20+ years, and now reside in Montserrat with my own family.
(For the Biblically challenged: “Jah” is a short form for Yahweh or Jehovah)
2] Inkwell: Millions of Arabs were uprooted violently from their homes and evicted from their land to create the state of Israel in 1948.
First, let’s get basic facts straight, since this is deteriorating into an exercise in atmosphere-poisoning. (And pursuant to a red herring leading out to a strawman to be burned; serving to distract attention from the real focus of this thread — the JFK case and its implications. )
On basic facts: the exchange of refugees in 1947 on, went more or less as follows: Arabs [including other nationalities] 400 – 600 k. Jews, 820 k, of which 620 k went to Israel. On treasure as well, the exchange was favourable to the Arabs.
All of that needs to be put in the context of the 1919 Weizmann-Feisal agreement as a side-agreement to the Versailles treaty; for the mutually supportive development of the Arab and Jewish nations in the Middle East. [Kindly cf again my always linked and onward links. If one cannot address this point objectively s/he cannot properly understand the ME situation.]
Peace in the ME is a mirage, absent reasonable — attempted wars of annihilation don’t count — resolution of the issues tied to BOTH refugee crises. Not least the oriental Jews and their descendants are the single largest group of Jews in Israel, and they have very bad memories of what dhimmitude under Islamic states is like.
3] “Occupation”:
In the context of a defensive war — and note here the open threats of annihilation and massacre backed up by a ring of steel and act of war by oil-strangulation — a power that has defended itself has a proper right under international law and basic justice to hold the territories so captured pending resolution of the underlying crisis. Not least that gives a buffer that allows for better defence should aggressors renew their attempts. Cf. here the 1973 war.
As well, some of the relevant territories are strictly speaking disputed rather than occupied [the 1949 lines in many cases being ceasefire lines, not recognised international boundaries] — hence the specific constraints on the phrasing of 242 and 338. Observe, in particular, that the USSR’s attempt to impose “the” territories, was rejected by the UNSC, as a simple matter of history and record. (In short, the objective situation is that the lines in question are properly to be negotiated, the 1949 ceasefire lines having demonstrated themselves unworkable.)
I add that indeed, there are many sins of the Israelis in the ME situation — as can be enumerated for ANY country on this earth full of finite, fallen, fallible and often ill-willed people. Having said that, it can be decisively shown that in each case, the root initiation of violence has lain with Arab, often Islamist extremists going back to the Mufti of Jerusalem who scuppered the 1919 framework principles.
When you are dealing with an opponent who makes no distinction between children, civilians and soldiers, openly resorting to and praising murder, one has little option but to institute civil restrictions that are harsh and even otherwise unjustifiable. (That is, the W Bank and Gaza have often been under in effect martial law. We should also note the major Israeli investments in developing that same set of territories post 1967 tot he benefit of its Arab inhabitants, in fairness.)
Then, too, all of that could have been settled in 2000, which would have given relatively small adjustments to the 1949 ceasefire lines, and a major financing package to launch a Palestinian Arab state. The palestinian arabs walked away from what would be the best compromise package they could ever hope for, and found a convenient excuse to launch on the latest campaign of terrorism. That tells me that the underlying objective, plainly, is still destruction of Israel and massacre of Jews. If you doubt that, observe the election of Hamas, the declarations in the Hamas Covenant, and the actions in the aftermath of the unilateral Israeli withdrawal form Gaza — starting with the continual rocketing of Sderot. So, while the Palestinian Arabs have a legitimate claim [acknowledged by the Jews ever since 1919 and onwards to 1947 up to 2000 and beyond), it seems they are too often unwilling to acknowledge that the Jews in the land also have a legitimate claim, and so their irresponsible and destructive behaviour has frustrated any reasonable compromise, from the 1920s to the 2000’s.
–> I simply note as just above for the onlookers who may find it instructive to look at the earlier remarks above and investigate facts for themselves.
4] Chase: the credibility of the ’supposed’ informant was at stake . . .
Even druggies sometimes tell the truth.
But more to the point we are dealing with a wired informant [similar to the more usual Mafia cases, where everyone sitting around the table is a crook but one is a wired crook working for the FBI . . .]. On hearing tapes and seeing pics, president Jagdeo responded in a very different way than you have.
5] Pro-Israel: The wording: ‘Territories’ (true) versus ‘The territories’ (false)
Cited, noted on, linked and addressed above.
But if someone has closed his or her mind to objective facts — as it seems our interlocutor “I” has done (given what has been put into play above already, and the angry dismissive response) — we can only note that fallacy for what it is, and move on.
GEM of TKI
Response on points awaits moderation. Onlookers kindly cf above and the always linked for the balance on the merits.
GEM of TKI
Kairosfocus
I don’t know where you got your information on Palestinian refugee numbers, must be from an Israeli web site, but check the true numbers at
http://www.palestinerefugees.org/HTML/now.htm
Those few refugees must have been procreating like rabbits.
Inkwell:
Save your breath ……it just isn’t worth it.Trust me on this one.
inkwell, chase etc,
don’t waste your precious time arguing with people like kairo and bimbro about israel and palestine.
the basis of the evangelical support for israel’s genocidal policies against palestinians is that they are god’s chosen people, the land belongs to the jews and palestinians need to accept that and leave. they will script pages and books and documents full of lies to support thier view and they have the support of mainstream media. showing them the facts will not change their minds. dont waste your time.
i expect kairo to now come with a 2000 word essay in response to me. save it because you are full of crap and i won’t be bothering to read it. u may impress simple minded people and fellow bigots with your farcical writings but i see you for what you are!
300,000- 500,000 killed (in the last couple of years). Millions displaced. Genocide and slavery- thousands of years worth of tradition.
Not Israel, it is Darfur.
Couple of weeks ago:
about 100 extremist fighters killed in Palestinian refugee camp by the army of the State.
Not Israel, Lebanon.
Today:
78 innocent civilians murdered by extremists.
Not Israel, Iraq.
Today:
12 Gazan citizens murdered by Hamas extremists for trying to cross the border into Israel.
That site in the link above (inkwell) has no Israel in it at all, calling Israel ‘Palestine Proper’.
A Pro-Israel, using your educational tools, foresees little middle ground or dialogue with three, who (all of a sudden) answer virtually simultaneously, a logically worked out prior strategy: productive times at the Tuesday night meetings.
Logically also, by the web reference these are reactionary. 242 didn’t work; so now for the next unproductive propogandistic step= Educationalists.
Not great prospects for a peace agreement discussion. Maybe a compromise, or two compromises, one day. Israel will still be waiting tp make further compromises, for the sake of the citizens you claim to care about, and its own. We care about yours too.
By the way, how come the Lebanese and the Jordanians don’t give the Palestinians citizenship or equal human rights? How do YOU refer to the policies of Lebanon and Jordan for these Palestinians- genocidal?
Israel isn’t going to go away. Get used to it.
Awaiting your long night of planned rage.
Like I said …..dont waste your breath…..history will judge them.
On second thought,let me waste some breath……
To Pro Israel:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article394547.ece
Dont waste your time
Your reminder that the Jews are supposed to be God”s chosen people brings to mind the cryptic poem
How odd
Of God
To choose
The Jews
Does God support their, as you put it, genocidal policies towards the Palestinians?
What does that say about God?
Perhaps the evangelicals can shed some light.
But not so odd
As those who choose
A Jewish God
But spurn the Jews
samizdat
June 21st, 2007 at 3:38 am
But not so odd
As those who choose
A Jewish God
But spurn the Jews
Is that supposed to be ‘game, set and match’, samizdat?!!!! 🙂
Kairofocus, Thistle, Bimbro what do you think about these two stories?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6592031.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6755589.stm
A Jewish God?
I thought God was a Bajan!!
Peace
muslim army chaplain?
June 21st, 2007 at 3:52 am
Kairofocus, Thistle, Bimbro what do you think about these two stories?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6592031.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6755589.stm
********************************
MAS, ‘Thanks’ for the question! I was just about to go and have my breakfast and you had to spoil it!
MAS, I can barely, bare to read those stories. In fact, I quickly scanned them to get the sense of what you meant. MAS, suffice to say that, in my opinion, both the US and UK are making a huge mistake by having anything to do with those people. As far as I’m concerned, it’s equivalent to trusting your worst enemy!
Almost, unbelievable!
I gine to try and have my breakfast now, in spite of everything! 🙂
Onlookers:
I observe, sadly, the usual atmosphere-poisoning by attack to the man through dismissal and stereotyping rather than direct addressing of evidence and record.
Not to mention, this is obviously on a red herring leading out to a strawman to be burned as a distraction from the substantive issue: the significance of the JFK case, in light of the issue that it is Caribbean muslims [in the case of el Shukrijumah, ethnic], who are implicated. Our region’s Islamic communities have a major challenge to address, one that dates back to the 1990 coup attempt in Trinidad, and now comes forward to the deported Imam over in Jamaica and the JFK case, in recent weeks.
I will however pause to address the worst of the above, in general terms; as this is part of what is poisoning the atmosphere for any serious discussion:
1] ME Refugee facts
One can always find various claims out there . . .
I will simply pass on this link as a place to begin looking at the other — usually unheard — side of that story.
In short, I am not exactly ignorant that there is a debate; but we need to look at both sides on that.
Having done so over the years for myself, I have drawn my own conclusions, as can be seen in the always linked. (Observe that I cite facts, events, agreements and sources that are NOT commonly used in the debates, but which I believe are material to forming a sound estimation of the balance of the case on the merits.)
Further to that, observe that there were clearly TWO ME refugee crises, one Arab [plus . . . ], the other Jewish, and that on credible evidence, the latter was bigger and involved a greater loss of property (by and large by state-sponsored confiscation, not abandonment). We also need to factor in the sloppy way in which people were classified as Palestinian refugees under the UN’s auspices, e.g. the unique two year residence rule and the market in associated tickets for relief that developed in the neighbourhoods of the refugee camps. [Note how by contrast the Israelis operated resettlement centres moving on to integrate the oriental Jewish refugees into their society. Contrast t e refusal to welcome back emigrants and/or integrate refugees among the Arab states, post 1947 – 9, and the rationale that this would be used as a wedge issue to split world opinion. Observe as well that three doublings across about 60 years (a feasible population growth rate in the neighbourhood of 3+% . . . recall the “population bomb”) would almost multiply a population by a factor of ten.]
And yes, Arab [plus] abandonment of the lands and property in the area that became the core of modern Israel is an issue here. For, on abundant evidence — the case of Haifa is emblematic, starting in 1947 as the anti-Jewish terror campaigns heightened, first the well-to-do effendi classes, then many of the ordinary Arabs left their land or places of residence, and then on the eve of war they were invited by brother Arabs to leave while the Jews were massacred. But of course nigh on sixty years later, that has not happened yet. (Mr Ahmadinejad is making very familiar noises and is evidently pursuing the nukes to back up such threats.)
I also note that the Weizmann-Feisal agreement of 1919, as previously linked and brought up, simply vanishes from the radar screen, as it is inconvenient to the myth that modern Israel is a Western racist oppressive colonialist outpost in the ME. But, it does show that moderate Arab and Jewish leaders, in the context of the post WW I settlements that tried to re-establish the states of Europe and the near east based on reasonable nationalist claims [with the notable exception of the Kurds], mutually accepted the legitimacy of nationalist claims and sought to build a framework for mutually supportive development. Oh, that that had succeeded!
Further to all this, the outlines of modern Israel are immediately apparent once one observes the areas of major Jewish settlement during the post-Ottoman period, based on land that was bought [often in a ruinate state and for outrageous prices], then restored to agricultural production.
I simply advise you to look at my always linked and see a balancing view on the usual picture presented in the mainstream media.
2] Those dumb closed-minded evangelicals . . .
One who simply looks above will immediately see that I have in no wise argued relative to the Biblical land claims of the Jews. [And, since the leadership core of modern Israel in its founding era were secularised, socialist-leaning Jews, neither did they. Their argument was historical, not religious. The 1919 agreement will show that it was on its face, valid. Had the agreement been honoured in spirit at least, the ME would now be one of the most advanced, prosperous regions in the world, as a simple comparison of Israel and Jordan — formerly, the transjordanian part of the British League of Nations Mandate which became the first palestinian Arab state in the region of palestine (on 3/4 of the mandate territory . . .) — will immediately show.]
I have simply pointed out that Jews are historically from the relevant land, and I can add that they have never wholly been driven out as the above linked discusses in brief.
In the late C19, waves of resettlement began, and the injection of capital and beginnings of agricultural, social and economic transformation attracted oriental Jews and Arabs and a great many other peoples from across the world to the land. [Cf here the 1930’s census!] As Ramsay’s note in my always linked will show, even after a quarter century, that process still faced a largely ruinate and depopulated land.
In short, the evidence is that we have had complementary and sometimes competing settlements, both with substantial legitimate claims to the land [not least, based on simple ownership], both with a substantial immigrant component. One party has over the past 80+ years been willing to make compromises [most recently in 2000], the other — from the times of the Mufti on — unfortunately has increasingly resorted to violence and threats or even attempts at annihilation.
The attempts have repeatedly backfired. Some would say, in light of Biblical teachings [e.g. Ps 83 and Ezek 36, say], no surprise. (And you might find it interesting to read the full linked page to see what evangelicals at the 2003 Conference on Islam reflected on as we looked at the Biblical issues. I believe you will find that the conclusions there are not at all simplistic or stereotypical.)
I trust this is enough to put a few balancing points into play; for onlookers at least.
GEM of TKI
H’mm:
As usual, response awaits moderation.
Onlookers are invited to read here for balancing observations. (H’mm, I may have mistakenly referred to the always linked, which is more general in scope.]
On biblical issues, why not read the whole document to which the just linked is an appendix, to see how evangelicals in the region thought and put up for discussion when the issue came up in considering the issues of Islam, the gospel and the Caribbean?
Then, why not take a look at the declaration from the conference?
Then, draw your own conclusions: Do you see the above simplistic stereotypes?
GEM of TKI
Two comments await moderation . . .
One last observation for now:
GENOCIDE: “the deliberate killing of a very large number of people from a particular ethnic group or nation [generally, with intent to wipe out the group].” [OED, augmented]
Since the Jews are the survivors of the most infamous genocide of C20, it is common for ill-intentioned propagandists to try to turnabout the term against them. Someone above has asserted that Israel’s behaviour to the Palestinian Arabs constitutes a Genocide.
That individual owes us either clear and indisputable justification for the claim that the Israelis as a matter of policy and action have set out on mass murder of Palestinian Arabs intending to wipe them out as a people; or else he owes us an apology. Failing that, he has removed himself from the pale of civil discourse.
In so addressing the matter, he will need to explain the 1/5 of Israel’s population who are Palestinian Arabs, the peace treaty with the Trans-jordanian Palestinian Arabs, the Arab members of the Knesset and the Israeli Supreme Court, as well as the action of the Israeli Government on capturing Jerusalem, with respect to the Holy sites. The post-1967 Israeli investments in develping the W Bank and Gaza will also need to be explained.
And in case he thinks Deir Yassin incident is able to overturn all of that, he needs to look into the response of the majority of the Jewish leaders at the time, to those implicated. [A look at the discussion of the other side of the story in the awaiting moderation will also be of help.]
An examination of the publicly declared intent of Arab leaders in 1947 – 49, and again in the run up to 1967 would also help. (Some of these have already been cited above.)
In short, it is high time to move on beyond propagandistic atmosphere poisoning.
GEM of TKI
In short, it is high time to move on beyond propagandistic atmosphere poisoning.
————————————————————————————————————————————————
Well said and so true……..now if only we could get you to take your own advice!!
Bimbro:
Would you be so kind as to join Thistle and I for a breath of fresh Atlantic air? 🙂
Would love to bro. but it would probably, knock me out after years of breathing this sh*tty air in the UK! I can hardly, remember what the sea looks like, except seeing it on the telly.
The one idea which I love about Bim is that, almost wherever you are there, you must be able to look around and soon see the sea! You’ll know there’s very little prospect of that here unless you live near the sea and for most of us that does n’t apply.
I live on a daily diet of concrete and even when I go to Europe it’s by Eurostar (train) so I still don’t get to see the sea!
I don’t know what it looks like! (doan laugh!)
Remember seeing those ships disappearing over the horizon as a kid on the beach in Bim. Absolutely, magical and decided for me that I had to travel abroad!
Wha happen, don’t you like Liz, then?!!
Chase
If you think I am substantially wrong, show why on the merits, starting with the JFK case, then going on to the biggie red herring issue that is going on. Absent that, that’s a cheap rhetorical attack to the man shot that should be apologised for. (And, Chase, kindly note just what I am speaking of above: unjustified patently accusations of genocide against the Israelis. I am properly entitled to take it on your cheap shot that you APPROVE of the accusation made by DWYT, for which I await apology (there is no proof as any reasonably well-informed person will know). That would be a very sad conclusion to have to draw, so I give you a chance to disassociate yourself from it. PLEASE . . .)
Onlookers, you can see for yourself that I have consistently addressed the matters on the merits, and have adduced many material considerations, inviting serious dialogue.
The absence of response on the merits, substituting red herrings, straw man arguments and attacks to the man is all too telling. [And it goes straight to my acknowledged hobby-horse: we got to fix our critical thinking education in the Caribbean, bigtime!]
GEM of TKI
On the two BBC stories:
Yep, there are Islamic chaplains in the US and UK armed forces. Since there are servicemen of those persuasions, that is no surprise. I have no inherent problem with that. [In the US I think there are also Wiccan chaplains, if memory serves — i.e. “Witchcraft.” I have no reports on their being issued with brooms or wands . . . nor of Quidditch being adopted into the services’ PT programme . . . 😉 ]
Now, check out and see if there are Jewish, or Christian or Bahai or Druze chaplains in the armed forces of certain ME countries, starting with Iran and going on from there . . . [Hint: a Christian Pastor who was an officer in the Iranian army and had been promoted because of his quality as an officer was put on trial by the religious authorities . . . under strict Islamic law, Muslims must bear rule and must not be subject to non-muslims, one of the implications of dhimmi status under Islamic law. Indeed, the testimony of a non muslim is automatically rejected if it contradicts that of a muslim; part off the reason for the destructive power of blasphemy laws in Muslim jurisdictions, as the accused cannot defend himself. In Pakistan this notoriously leads to the tactic of escalating say a land dispute into a life-threatening blasphemy accusation.)
So, think about the contrast . . .
GEM of TKI
Gem Of TKI:
You come on this site with your well typed posts,with you well researched points.
As soon as you find someone who doesn’t agree with what you have said you ask for an apology.
I have made up my mind never to post any replies to you but I really have to say this .
Who are you to demand any apology from anyone?
As silly or ignorant as any post may be…that is the persons opinion.
Many time on this site people attack others personally.like Ian Bourne ..there is no apology.
Get a life sir !!
If we all agreed to the same things what good would debate be.
My impression of you ,is that you are very educated but also arrogant and pompous.
You cleverly try to hide you true agenda in those well written posts …but we are not all as stupid as you would hope.
Kairosfocus, I’m impressed by your considerable knowledge of these matters. All I can say is, OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! and, thank god that I’m a christian!
Jews fought in the second world war in British, US and Canadian armed forces, the French resistance, others.
Today:
Trucks of food enter Gaza, through and from, Israel.
Water pumped into Gaza, from Israel.
Electricity, plugged into Gaza, from Israel.
Meanwhile in Sudan: governmental armies and militias prevent water and food delivery for humanitarian purposes.
You tell them ‘Pro-Israel’! Show them the merits of christianity and failings of Islam! What has islam ever done for me/us – bugger all!!!!!!!!!!!
Pro Israel:
Dont you think it is time they gave back some of which they have stolen?
Do you know that Israelis, both the military and young people destroys the crops of the Palestinians for the fun of it?
Do you know that the wall cuts right across most of the arable Palestinian land?And the farmers have to travel miles to a check point and hope they are admitted in order to work their land?
Do you know that the IDF systematically target power stations in Palestine?
Do you know that the power stations runs the water purification stations?
What would you call breaking the sound barrier with a supersonic jet fighter over civillian homes
Do you know that it is illegal for Israel to withhold the taxes which are due to the Palestines?
Get your facts straight before coming and making an ass of yourself.At least Kairofocus does his research.
You destroy a people,under the guise of defending a nation…from who?
Even someone with half a brain knows that Israel could destroy any of its nieghbours in a heartbeat.
Collective suffering is what this is.If you want to punish the terrorist why would you destroy basic necessities to many…..then again,Israel seems to think all Palestinians are terrorists.
BimBro;
If you had the time and energy,you would be impressed with yourself too.
All of this can be researched on the net,by reading books etc. if one has the time.
The problem with this however is that ,depending on you religious persuasion,mentality,agendas,You will always research with the bias of trying to fit everything into your own perspective.
While freethinkers are ridiculed and branded.
Well said Chase.
One of our enlightened brothers is missing the point. Most people in the world make a distinction between what is classified as a Jew and a Zionist, just as we do regarding a Muslim and an Islamist. Many Jews are against the Zionist Agenda and there is some information that suggests Zionism played a part in the genocidal activity in WWII. Jews have lived in Palestine for centuries, in relative peace until the resurgent Zionist movement began calling for a state called Israel. It is the actions of the Zionist leadership of Israel that has caused and continues to cause division among the people in Israel and it is to this Zionist regime that the leader of Iran and many other ME leaders refer when calling for destruction.
Many Jews also condemn and demonstrate against Zionism and the way that the leadership in Israel prolongs and encourages their perpetual wars. There have been a few Zionist politicians that have called for the annihilation of non Jews and even if they had not, their actions speak louder than words.
We all contain a spiritual level of awareness that indicates to us what seems justifiable or not. Some of us suppress our spiritual awareness with information that we lean on or hide behind to allow us to accept the poor choices made by regimes that we are taught to believe in (i.e.Israel the USA or Britain, Islam, Christianity etc).
As our spiritual awareness grows we consider what it is telling us and we ask pertinent questions, we review and question the information that we have clung to for a sense of sanity and safety, we do not want to feel that we are wrong, that our whole lives and belief system is based on half truths and deception, fear and manipulation.
This is what this thread is all about. It is now a fearful crime to even TALK about committing a crime in private!!!.
When we get over the fear we find the love and we make the better choices.
Peace
Hi Chase, there’s clearly, a great deal more to the middle east situation than meets the eye. I would say that, surrounded by arabs, Israel is in a very difficult position and might feel the need to resort to very, harsh measures at times. However, I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on this subject, but, at the moment, right or wrong, my sympathy is with Israel!
I’m not going to pretend that the Jews are angels because I’ve experienced racism from them just as I have from other groups, but I think when you consider their unique position of being surrounded by enemies and having been attacked by them – well, you can understand her reaction!
Onlookers:
A few remarks are in order, particularly in response to Chase’s: As soon as you find someone who doesn’t agree with what you have said you ask for an apology. [June 21, 1:48 pm]
This is — sadly — a destructive, false, atmosphere poisoning accusation, given its context [to be elaborated below]. One in which Chase — caught out on at best inexcusable carelessness and joining in on a propagandistic chorus — pretends that it is I who have committed a major offense.
Let us look at what happened above, noting that all of this is on a red herring off the real topic (which stands materially un-addressed on the part of those who were hasty to dismiss the credibility of the US claims based on surveillance evidence strong enough to convince pres Jagdeo of Guyana that there is a case to be answered: the implications of the reported JFK bombing plot):
1] DWYT, June 20, 10:21 pm: the basis of the evangelical support for israel’s genocidal policies against palestinians is that they are god’s chosen people, the land belongs to the jews and palestinians need to accept that and leave.
–> I responded to this above, June 21, 9:16 am, by pointing out what “genocide” is from the OED, and using pointed challenges to highlight that Israel’s actions in no wise constitute genocide. [Pro-Israel supplied a real example of genocide, in Darfur.]
–> In my always linked sand further linked on the history of modern Israel and above, I have also consistently pointed out as well the well-established fact that the Jews have been willing to share the land with others, i.e they have plainly and repeatedly publicly accepted that others also have a legitimate claim to be inhabitants of the land. From the Feisal-Weizmann agreement of 1919 to the 2000 Camp David compromise of Clinton, this has been so. [Indeed, this goes back to biblical times, where for instance, David’s no 2 General and bodyguard were Philistines; and much more besides . . .] In short the entire accusation by DWYT is false, easily provably false.
–> Further to this, to accuse falsely and irresponsibly of genocide is to swallow/propagate pernicious propaganda and poison the atmosphere. [Observe how DWYT has never surfaced since to try to substantiate his accusation. I have also linked above to a paper from the 2003 conference on Islam the Gospel and the Caribbean which shows just how the biblical issues he raises were handled by evangelicals from the region, many from Barbados, on the ground, right there in Barbados. I again invite D or any others to discuss this on the merits.]
–> Unfortunately, Chase either did not observe just what was on the table as “atmosphere poisoning” and chose to take a cheap rhetorical shot, or else he agrees with it, for we see:
2] Chase, June 21, 1:06 am:
“[Citing GEM of TKI:] In short, it is high time to move on beyond propagandistic atmosphere poisoning.
[Chase, commenting “cleverly”:] Well said and so true……..now if only we could get you to take your own advice!!”
–> In the specific context of an accusation of the worst of war crimes, the simplest interpretation of this remark is that Chase agrees with DWYT, on the accusation that the Israelis are guilty of genocide, and that it is therefore those who deny that horrible crime who are guilty of atmosphere poisoning. That is on such a “plain meaning” understanding I would stand here of being a genocide denier [with all the obvious parallels to deniers of the Nazi holocaust].
–> The only problem? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE OF ISRAELI GENOCIDE, i.e mass murder of a targetted people-group or nation as a matter of policy ?
–> ANS: As I have pointed out repeatedly, there is none. In fact in linked materials one may discover that after the Israeli conquest of the W Bank, in response to Jordanian persistent attacks in the 6-day war, Israel poured in a lot of money into the WB to develop it, fixed major public health and health care problems, materially contributed to the creation of seven universities in a region that previously had had three teachers’ colleges, opened the door to work in the Israeli economy, and kept the bridges to Jordan proper open. That is consistent with the Balfour principle of not harming the existing Arab population in the land [and even goes beyond it] led to a wave of Arab IMMIGRATION from 1967 – 1992 or so. Unsurprisingly, the WB’s arab population soared, leading from what I see to some 260 new or significantly extended settlements. (The subsequent astonishing collapse in the WB economy dates to the sad mismanagement under the PA.)
–> However, I am still of the opinion that Chase has failed to read the context carefully, and resorted to a cheap rhetorical shot, not realising what it implied in light of the specific context.
–> I therefore find his latest statements as cited at the head of this post, disappointing. [Frankly, it sounds like one who has no answer on the merits, but is unwilling to climb down publicly from an outrageous statement.]
3] So am I demanding apology for the “crime” of merely disagreeing with me?
Plainly, even obviously, not. (We can here ignore the implied accusation of utter arrogance on my part, given what else is on the table.)
For, I am pointing out — with evidence linked and now summarised — that false, propagandistic accusations of genocide are atmosphere-poisoning in effect; just as is plainly happening. [Note the utter want of credible evidence on the part of those who accuse Israel of GENOCIDE.]
–> Those who make such false accusations have gone beyond the pale of civil discourse and should redeem themselves by apologising, if they are responsible and honourable persons.
–> If someone does something like that, and will not apologise on being corrected relative to credible facts, s/he marks plainly her-/him-self out as beyond the pale of civil discourse.
So, Chase, and DWYT (and any others who join in with such behaviour), you have a three-headed choice: [1] substantiate the accusation of genocide, or [2] apologise for irresponsible commentary, or [3] stand exposed as beyond the pale of civil discourse.
GEM of TKI
PS: On further examination, Chase indulges a long list of similarly irresponsible accusations, without properly demonstrative evidence [e.g “stolen land”] and in the teeth of credible evidence that the Jews of Israel have a legitimate claim to their homeland, just as the long-settled Arabs there too. The only reasonable solution to such is a compromise. As my always linked shows, that was agreed to by the Arab leadership of the day in 1919 at Versailles, but unfortunately has been subverted by the Mufti of Jerusalem, his followers and heirs and successors to this day. But if one can substitute the propagandistic drama of western colonialism for the truth of a successful nationalist initiative to resettle and restore one’s homeland [from which one’s ancestors were largely but not wholly expelled by force of arms, and where there has always been a settlement of Jews across the ages], many in our region will not see the forest for the trees of understandable rage over our own bitter colonial experience. That is the precise calculation of the propagandists who accuse Israel of genocide, stealing land, and the like; that this is propaganda and not objective fact can easily be seen by the onward behaviour of refusal to engage evidence on the merits.
PPS: Finally for now, a few links to look at some balancing facts together:
[1] The 1919 Versailles Weizmann-Feisal side agreement (which shows the responsible Arab leadership at the time agreeing that the Arab and Jewish nations had legitimacy in the ME and should work together as cousins to develop their common homeland . . .),
[2] A summary of modern Israel’s history (and a discussion of associated biblical issues in the main document to which this is an appendix);
[3] Meyer-Levy (as already linked), and
[4] Myths vs Facts (a compendium on rebutting propagandistic claims and correctives/balances to common misunderstandings). This supplement will also be helpful.
NB: Set of links for onward reading awaits moderation . . .
H’mm:
This bears repeating since when one cannot answer a case on the merits [NB: to D & C et al, that is exactly what I am not doing — onlookers, observe the adducing of evidence directly and through links etc], a red herring is a powerful and often resorted-to tactic of distraction:
all of this [back forth over Israel and stolen land, Genocide, etc] is on a red herring off the real topic (which stands materially un-addressed on the part of those who were hasty to dismiss the credibility of the US claims based on surveillance evidence strong enough to convince pres Jagdeo of Guyana that there is a case to be answered: the implications of the reported JFK bombing plot)
We need to address this on its merits, as it is what immediately and massively concerns us. So, let us not allow the red-herring draggers to pull us off the track [at least for too long].
GEM of TKI
Kairfocus, sorry man, I don’t seek to trivialise the debate but, re: your post of 22.6.07 at 06.37 a.m., ‘you is a lawyer or what’?!!! 🙂
I in arguing wid you boa!!! 🙂
Kairfocus, please tell us, and I’m not expressing an opinion either for against what you have said. I’ve read some of it but not all, but why exactly, do you feel so strongly about this subject!
Are you Jewish, or are you always so analytically, precise?
Bimbro,
You said you are no expert on the subject, but right now your sympathies are with Israel.
I offer the below references which will give you some relevant information which may or may not affect your opinion. I would offer them to Kairosfocus, but he appears to be impervious to any information that conflicts with his opinion.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles6/DeRooij_Ambient-Death.htm
http://www.black-iris.com/?p=262
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2112575.ece
These sites not only give you some facts, but also an insights into attitudes of Israel, the US and UK. Perhaps the Israeli apologist on this site would prefer the term “indiscriminate killing” to “genocide”. Perhaps he can fit the following into his “defense” theory
Since the beginning of intifada through June 13, 2003
Total attacks on ambulances = 253
Total ambulances damaged = 118
Total personnel injured = 192
Total ambulance personnel killed = 3
Denial of access to ambulances logged = 920
Chase, don’t let him overwhelm you with specious argument. Objective observers without an agenda still know right from wrong.
Hi B:
Came by to check on that moderation of a set of links. Saw your comment.
First, thanks for some kind words.
I am not a lawyer, but I am very aware of what happens when arguments run away from anchorage in credible fact and logic — observe here my emphasis above on fact and logic — to blinding emotions and blind following of myths and emotion-manipulating advocates. Here, I cite Aristotle in his The Rhetoric, as he opens his main case in Book I Ch 2:
____________
” Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker’s personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . . .”
____________
On the why question, that harks back to the patterns of the emerging global era and associated geo-strategic conflicts. Namely, the contentions between (1) the increasingly post-Christian and post-/ultra- modern secularised West, (2) the rising power of Islamism, and (3) the impacts of what I have called The Southern Christian Reformation that for100 – 200 years has swept the south of our planet.
In that context, as I and others have argued, we the people and churches of the Caribbean have a potential to serve as a peace-making bridging people, calling the globe to learn to repent of its sins and seek reconciliation and reformation under God.
Simply put, one cannot touch on the vexed issues of Islamism, Islam, and the West (as well as the South!) without touching on the Middle East flash-point.
In that context, many a tempting but misleading myth lurks, and many a propagandistic false accusation intended to lure the unwary into the chaos triggered by hostility.
So, we Caribbean people have got to fix our education system so we learn how to think straight, fix our superficial and sloppy at best media culture, and awaken to our challenges in the emerging global age. [That includes recognising the implications of that Hezbollah base down in Venezuela!]
For, echoing a certain Mordecai, have we not come to our estate for such a time as this?
GEM of TKI
Israel is still having problems in finding homes for the Jewish residents it removed from Gaza to Israel. Too bad the residences were demolished, as regular Palestinian people might have liked a home.
It now looks like Gaza, if a country can be made, will have a closed border with Israel (to me), since extremist fighters and rockets are continuously launched. Maybe some day there will be a peace treaty and interchange will be easier. Israel wil still help with humanitarian aid.
Do you think that Gazans should be able to cross Israel to get to the West Bank?
Jews are not allowed into Iran.
Still, that would be racist, so one should never follow the Iranian lead.
Wait, stop press: Iran sponsors Hizbollah and Hamas?
Jews not allowed in Gaza?
Educationalists above say “them” continuously, as if Jews/Israelis are something else. Isolationist educationists.
And educationalists above say, “their war”, as if other parties are blameless. Delegitimising educationalists.
Israel is there, a rock for the Jews.
Fighters from world wide go to Gaza and in 6 months they are legally categorised as “refugees”.
Doesn’t it take 2 to make peace?
The Islamic and Arab world, both, have earmarked the Palestinian as martyrs. They are expendable so long as the bitter propoganda is achieved, and the avowed aim to delegitimise Israel, and later destroy Israel, is eventually accomplished.
Help them, not Hamas, help the citizens who don’t care about your agendas.
Praying and saying, “peace” won’t make it come. Actions speak.
Middle Eastern and world education policies show it. Let’s talk about what you are teaching your children?
http://www.edume.org
How long and how many times do you try to make lies turn into the truth? That’s your “game”, and it goes right to the top, even of the local Islamic Bajan community.
Pray and write in the local mosques, and in the local Islamic schools about a peace on both parties beneficial terms- Israel (and the now 2) Palestines?
I am here to talk to you, and to try to facilitate you, in changing yourselves, and also myself.
Want peace? Stop making a fight.
This is Barbados. We have an oportunity to discuss and make a model to show.
Compromise.
PS: On further examination, Chase indulges a long list of similarly irresponsible accusations,
—————————————————————————————————————
I too have done my research and I dare you to prove any of my above accusations wrong!!
The building of some Israeli settlements on Palestinian land have been deemed illegal by the UN and other organizations.They have asked Israel to stop but they refused as usual…..is this not stealing?
Anyhow I really think I had enough of this.Time for some Atlantic fresh air.
Thank you, Inkwell for the references. I’ll have a look at them, sometime soon!
Kairfocus, Aristotle?!!!! No, man, you must be a lawyer or historian or something! Whoeee!!!!!! 🙂
I’m going to keep a copy of that speech ‘K’ and study it again, sometime! I’m not persuaded, yet, though! Just call me a cynical, old fool!!!!!!!! 🙂 Will read your entire post again, sometime, more carefully. Can’t spare the time, at the moment!
The building of ALL Israeli settlements has been deemed illegal by the highest court in the world, the United Nations. The US voted in favour of UNSC resolution 242 in 1967 and 338 in 1973 which declared the occupation illegal and called for Israel’s withdrawal, but in a disgraceful about face which has gained it the hatred of the entire Arab world and the disdain of others who stand up for principle, has vetoed every subsequent resolution at the UN which sought to censure Israel.
Instead Israel, with US acquiescence has continued to this day to expand settlements illegally established in the West Bank, uprooting and destroying entire Palestinian neighbourhoods in the process. When the residents resist, it is conveniently called terrorism.
Apologists for Israel dipsy doodle around resolution 242 and its meaning with the sole purpose of letting the rape become a fait accompli.
If the Jews claim a prior right to Palestinian land, why am I not hearing any calls for the return of the vast tracts of land stolen from the native American Indians? Now I understand American support for Israel, two of a kind.
When you are ready to talk, let me know?
Maybe when you stop being so biased.
Sticks and stones. Don’t like your opinionated lies much either.
Here are your own words: “Get a life, sir!”… “asses”.
Regardless of what you think about me or my friends, I’m here to work with you and the quartet.
Let’s agree to (not be friends but to) take care of the collective welfare?
If you are so interested in the collective welfare ,then why are all your post and your name Pro Israel….pleeaassee!!
Right away ,whether you mean to or not it denotes your bias.
I am sure others like me are not pro Arabs or Pro Jews but since you and your ‘friends’ bring nothing but pro Israeli sentiments,some one has to show you all that the same can be said about both sides.
‘Don’t like your opinionated lies much either’…….
As I have said,these are all proven and documented facts.Thing is you will never admit because you refuse to look at both sides.
If you really want serious debate, deal with both sides fairly and equally,then we can start.
Israel
You no like it?
Israel
You don’ take it?
Israel.
Can we get to the peace talks yet? Or will you forever bate, abuse and deligitimise?
It’s an opportunity to grasp, neither a boxing match, nor a debate to win over who is right. That’s where you keep heading.
Cry cry baby, come; help (me) to help de people.
I feel sorry for you.To think I was actually looking forward to a serious exchange of views with you.
What good is an exchange if it is only on your terms?
Onlookers:
First of all, observe the persistent refusal to engage the substantial issues in the thread, namely the JFK plot incident and its implications for the region. In short, all of the above is due to red herring tactics and atmosphere poisoning by attacking the man instead of enaging the evidence objectively. Observe, also the refusal to address and properly substantiate or else apologise for the issue of the accusation of GENOCIDE the worst of war crimes.
[I note here, the latest claims by Inkwell on my “refusal” to engage fact-claims on the other side of a debate. Has it ever occurred to him that I have looked, long and hard on the issues, and have good reason for drawing conclusions as I do, relative to objective, credible material facts and either their implications or else abductive inference to best explanation – as opposed to many, many myths? Does “I” understand that in a context where these many [too often, propagandistic] myths are treated as “facts,” courts and their judgements, media figures, academics, pundits, etc all fall under the stricture that no authority is better than his/her facts and logic? The first of these facts, being the Weizmann-Feisal side-agreement to the Versailles Treaty of 1919 . . . observe the utter non-engagement of this inconvenient fact.]
Now, on selective, illustrative claims by commenters above:
1] C: the [anti-sniping and suicide bomber infiltration] wall cuts right across most of the arable Palestinian land?And the farmers have to travel miles to a check point and hope they are admitted in order to work their land?
Here, C omits a vital, materially important context as I have already pointed out: the wall was erected as a defensive measure in the face of a terrorist campaign targetting civilians for murder, with over 500 victims. That, in the further context of a walkaway from a very reasonable compromise offer in 2000 that led to starting of a terror campaign on a flimsy excuse. In such a context, thought he inconvenience to farmers is regrettable, that bears simply no comparison to the justifiable need to defend innocents from those who wish to murder them under the most flimsy of pretexts.
In short, it is reasonable to infer from the behaviour of the Palestinian Arab leadership that they still refuse to accept the legitimacy of the claims of their neighbours, and seek to impose their own “final solution” – destruction of Israel, and death or expulsion of the Jewish people living there, by imposition of violence. Nor is this merely speculation — this is in Charters of major organisations acting in the name of the Palestinian Arab people, and/or in the name of Islam. It is also in many statements across decades by their leaders.
In such a context of evident intended genocide, the use of propagandistic myths to becloud the naked and indefensible truth, is not a surprise.
In such a context as well, generic accusations and atrocity stories, as C lists, is not a surprise. C, is it a policy of Israel to destroy Palestinian crop-lands for “fun”? Where was this documented, from credible sources?
BREAK . . .
Continuing . . .
2] I’s three links:
–> The first begins “Before her murder by the Israeli army, Rachel Corrie . . .”
–> Now, while her death is regrettable, credible sources will show that it was accidental and incident on her own carelessness and/or unfamiliarity with being around heavy equipment. So, coming out the gate, due to atmosphere poisoning, I have no confidence in further remarks by Mr Paul de Rooij, only observing that his article foes downhill from there . . ..
–> The second, from a pro-Palestinian blog, having noted that in 2005 the Israeli deaths [mostly reflecting reduction in suicide bombings] fell by 60%, then immediately proceeds: “since no one is going to write a report calculating the Palestinian side I figured I’d give it a try . . . ” and goes on to “no one can (or no one will bother) to tell the difference between a combatant and a civilian. Come to think of it whenever I turn on the news the terms I hear used to describe Palestinian deaths are “militants” and “terrorists” regardless of who was killed . . .”
–> This of course, fails to distinguish between a conflict in which on the Palestinian Arab side, there is a deliberate and sustained, openly declared intent to target civilians, and to hide behind civilians, while on the other – Israeli — side the intent to avoid deaths of innocents is so obvious that it is exploited by those who wish to target civilians then hide behind other civilians.
–> This is the well-known, pernicious, fallacy of alleged [im]moral equivalency.
–> The third, is an Independent article, which reflects just this problem. It leads: ” The number of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza Strip tripled this year, according to an Israeli human rights organisation . . . 660 Palestinians had been killed during 2006, including 141 minors. The report claimed that at least 322 of those killed were not fighters . . . . [there was] a drop in the number of Israelis killed during the year. Palestinians killed 17 civilians, including one minor, and six members of the security forces . . .”
–> The article fails to note a highly relevant context, that there was a two-front war, initiated by Palestinian terrorists and by Hezbollah, Iran’s Foreign Legion. It fails to note that there is a common tactic of targetting or using civilians as human shields, on the part of such terrorists, as just noted.
–> It does note that the Israelis objected tot he credibility of the basis for calculating numbers of civilian deaths, then brushed this aside with a claim from group making the claim: “. . . The Israeli government has a tendency to describe every Palestinian killed as a terrorist.” (H’mm: could it be that the Israelis, with their notoriously effective intelligence services, may happen to know lists of identified terrorists? So, they may have good reason to dispute the Palestinian Arab claims, which of course also may just have a motivation to exaggerate civilian deaths — aka “Pallywood” productions, complete with “corpses” that UAV drones have taped getting off biers set up for the media’s cameras? And, what does this tell us about the Israeli policy and underlying values on innocent life?]
–> As for ambulance attack stories etc, these should be assessed in light of the known abuse of such vehicles by both the Palestinian terrorists and Hezbollah, and cases of evident Pallywood at work.
3] C: I too have done my research and I dare you to prove any of my above accusations wrong!!
First, accusations of GENOCIDE are the main ones on the table. These are notoriously by now, utterly without foundation, and you have not apologised for jumping on DWYT’s bandwagon with such attacks. You have removed yourself from the pale of civil discourse.
Second, I have shown above how your list is misleading, inaccurate, and/or propagandistic.
BREAK . . .
2] Re I’s three links:
–> The first begins “Before her murder by the Israeli army, Rachel Corrie . . .”
–> Now, while her death is regrettable, credible sources will show that it was accidental and incident on her own carelessness and/or unfamiliarity with being around heavy equipment. This article goes downhill from there . . .
–> The second, having noted that in 2005 the Israeli deaths fell by 60%, then immediately proceeds: “since no one is going to write a report calculating the Palestinian side [The Independent, the third linked supplies such by an Israeli activist group . . .] . . . and goes on to “no one can (or no one will bother) to tell the difference between a combatant and a civilian . . .”
–> This of course, fails to distinguish between a conflict in which on one side, there is an openly declared and carried out intent to target civilians, and to hide behind civilians, while on the other – Israeli — side the intent to avoid deaths of innocents is so obvious that it is exploited by those who wish to target civilians then hide behind other civilians.
–> The third, is an Independent article, which reflects just this problem. The article fails to note a highly relevant context, that there was a two-front war, initiated by Palestinian terrorists and by Hezbollah, Iran’s Foreign Legion. It fails to note that there is a common tactic of targetting or using civilians as human shields, on the part of such terrorists, as just noted.
–> It does note that the Israelis objected to the credibility of the basis for calculating numbers of civilian deaths, then brushed this aside with a claim from group making the assertion, as if the Israeli intel forces don’t have lists of known and suspected terrorists forming the basis for their casualty counts.
–> As for ambulance attack stories etc, these should be assessed in light of the known abuse of such vehicles by both the Palestinian terrorists and Hezbollah, and cases of evident “productions” for media consumption
3] C: I too have done my research and I dare you to prove any of my above accusations wrong!!
First, accusations of GENOCIDE are the main ones on the table. These are notoriously by now, utterly without foundation, and you have not apologised for jumping on DWYT’s bandwagon with such attacks. You have removed yourself from the pale of civil discourse.
Second, I have shown above how your list is without credibility.
[ . . .]
Point by point on I’s three links will not go through nor does it come up as on moderation . . .
4] Re C: The building of some Israeli settlements on Palestinian land have been deemed illegal by the UN and other organizations.They have asked Israel to stop but they refused as usual…..is this not stealing?
Having forfeited the right of civil conversation, C is now simply subject to analysis for the sake of onlookers:
–> Let us begin, by referring to Meyer-Levy as linked above. There you will see from p. 31 on, a serious analysis of the whole question of occupation and settlements, which C gives no indication of interacting with apart form the artful use of “some.”
–> Next, as has long since been noted, the question in the main is the legitimacy of Israel [long since settled in international law and only disputed by those who refuse to look at relevant factors] and the result of the 1967 war of defence in the face of declared intent to annihilate — i.e to commit GENOCIDE (note how no-one has been able to dispute the declarations of the Arab leaders on the eve of war . . .) — backed up by a ring of steel and an act of war by strangulation-blockade.
–> This resulted in the capture of territory used as platforms of aggression, and the defending party for obvious reasons has a right to hold such territories pending a reasonable settlement of the underlying issue through a peace treaty.
–> In the cases of Egypt and Jordan, such has happened, and Israel has returned land, handed over infrastructure developed, etc. Syria has made no treaty. Egypt in the context of the Camp David Accords, refused to accept responsibility for Gaza. Jordan has ceded claims to the W Bank.
–> So, the areas in question here are not strictly occupied but rather DISPUTED territories, as the Arabs rejected the UN partition of the disputed mandate territory in 1947 and participated in a war of intended annihilation of the party of the other part, the Jewish inhabitants of the newly emergent state of Israel. These territories, strictly are DISPUTED, not “occupied.”
–> Indeed, Palestinian Arab nationalism is in this context a latecomer [ post-1967; i.e there was no dispute against Jordanian claims by the W B Arabs, and in 1969 Hussein offered Arafat the Premiership to settle rising tensions. He refused and civil war ensued leading to the expulsion of the PLO to Lebanon, which in turn triggered the Lebanese civil war etc.]. Some PLO leaders have openly stated that the “nationalist” claims are tactical [cf M-L, p. 11, pp. 37 – 38 ], meant to legitimise an intent to destroy Israel in the eyes of many int he wider world who are inclined to sympathise with “liberation struggles” [as opposed to naked declarations of intent to annihilate, as already documented and linked].
–> In this context, the Israelis have undertaken five classes of settlement [and Arabs have also undertaken many new settlements]. M-L enumerates A – E: military defense, Jews returning to pre-1948 homes [e.g. Hebron, E Jerusalem — formerly the Jewish Quarter], “settlements” on/near the Green armistice line (subject to shifts under 242 towards “secure” borders . . .), other [e.g near Jewish holy sites], illegal rogue settlements [some of which have been forcibly dismantled by Israel]. Cf M-L for details, including purchase of land, use of Crown land, Arafat’s 1994 decision that to sell land to Jews was worthy of a death sentence [is this not racism of the worst sort?], etc.
–> Under the overall context of defensive war and repeated willingness to negotiate and to hand over settlements in course of such [e.g in Sinai], only some of the fourth may be in dispute, and the fifth is unquestionably illegal (as noted). In short there is hardly a proper basis for accusing Israel or the people of Israel in general of “stealing” Palestinian land.
–> In this context, too, the UN is fatally compromised ever since the notorious “Zionism is racism” resolution of the mid-1970’s. The UN is simply not a credible or competent authority to address issues relating to Israel. (IMHCO, it is by and large an ideologically warped, largely agenda-driven, too often corrupt and incompetent talk-shop with dangerous pretensions to possessing superior wisdom and morality, and to ruling/controlling the world; as if, any centralised body can process the information required to do so accurately and in good time — the core reason Communistic centrally planned economies failed. I am distinctly not impressed by too much of what emanates from Turtle Bay, etc.)
5] Re I: The building of ALL Israeli settlements has been deemed illegal by the highest court in the world, the United Nations.
Precisely illustrative of the problem just identified!
6] The US voted in favour of UNSC resolution 242 in 1967 and 338 in 1973 which declared the occupation illegal and called for Israel’s withdrawal
Already addressed long since above, but ignored as “inconvenient facts.” Just scroll up, onlookers — and see for yourself willful blindness and refusal to engage cogent evidence at work on I’s part.
The occupation of territory in a defensive war is not illegal, and the resolutions neither deem Israel’s action in defending itself illegal nor do they mandate a complete withdrawal, nor a withdrawal in absence of a settlement of the underlying state of war.
7] Apologists for Israel dipsy doodle around resolution 242 and its meaning with the sole purpose of letting the rape become a fait accompli.
With this, I steps decisively beyond the pale of civil discourse.
He has refused to look at the facts as documented by the authors of the relevant resolutions, but instead insists on a fantasy that Israel was the aggressor in 1967 [at 2:1 in men, 3:1 in tanks and 4:1 in aircraft!!!!], leading to illegality of occupation and so the conclusion that everything Israel has done since in these territories must be illegal.
In short, I commits the fallacy of the closed and hostile mind, compounded by abuse of those who have patiently laid out and linked facts to correct him.
8] Chase vs Pro-Israel:
PI, C obviously has made up his mind already regardless of the mere facts on the ground, and their implications. Do not stoop to trying to have a quarrel with him.
____________
Meanwhile: regarding the substantive issue, observe onlookers:
. . . all of this [back forth over Israel and stolen land, Genocide, etc] is on a red herring off the real topic (which stands materially un-addressed on the part of those who were hasty to dismiss the credibility of the US claims based on surveillance evidence strong enough to convince pres Jagdeo of Guyana that there is a case to be answered: the implications of the reported JFK bombing plot)
GEM of TKI
PS on I’s three links.
The first begins with a claim that Ms Corrie was murdered by Israeli Army, which is counter to well-established facts of an accident of someone who did not seem to know/care what operators of heavy equipment can/cannot see. The cite discredits itself from the outset, and goes downhill thereafter.
The second contradicts itself by the implicit assumption that we should care about civilian casualties while failing to note that the Palestinians TARGET civilians while tactically exploiting the fact that the Israelis seek to AVOID such casualties where possible.
The third, an Independent of the UK, article, fails to address the full context of 2006, then fails to realise that the Israelis may just happen to have an Intel-based list of known and suspected terrorist operatives, so when they object to the foundation of the Israeli activist group’s calculations, they may have a reasonable basis for doing so, but one that is not usually made public. (And the activist group’s calculation is premised on the very fact that the Israeli public and officials are concerned about civilian casualties, even in the midst of an existential struggle against those with declared intent to destroy Israelis, without distinction as to military/civilian — cf Allied and German bombing campaigns in WW II.)
PPS: Re C’s I too have done my research and I dare you to prove any of my above accusations wrong!!
–> It is those who make grave charges — up[ to and including jumping on a bandwagon with those who accuse Israel of genocide — who carry the burden of poof. [This you have not met, apart form an implicit appeal to un-sourced authority. No authority is better than his/her facts and logic]
–> Besides, I have already shown why many of your claims fail and why others should have no credibility absent substantiating details.
Onlookers:
Let’s start with material fact no 1:
_____________
Agreement Between Emir Feisal and Dr. Weizmann
3 January, 1919
His Royal Highness the Emir Feisal, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hedjaz, and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization, mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realizing that the surest means of working out the consummation of their natural aspirations is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine [i.e here the prospective Jewish state/settlement, with protective provisions through Balfour for the existing inhabitants], and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following:
Articles:
Article I
The Arab State and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding, and to this end Arab and Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in the respective territories.
Article II
Immediately following the completion of the deliberations of the Peace Conference, the definite boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine shall be determined by a Commission to be agreed upon by the parties hereto. [The boundaries were such that they included Cis- and trans-Jordanian Palestine, and a slice that was handed to Syria later on in the Golan. Later of course the eastern 3/4 was put under Abdullah as an Arab state, i.e. Feisal’s brother. (Feisal became ruler of Iraq, the al Husseinis having been defeated in Arabia by Ibn Saud.) Then cis-Jordanian Palestine was by UN mandate partitioned into Jewish and Arab portions]
Article III
In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine, all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government’s Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917. [Balfour Declaration: “His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”]
Article IV
All necessary measures shall be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale [Muftism frustrated this and so helped lay the foundation for the slaughter in Europe . . .], and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. [Israel of course became a premier dry land agriculture state.] In taking such measures the Arab peasant and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.
Article V
No regulation or law shall be made prohibiting or interfering in any way with the free exercise of religion; and further, the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed. No religious test shall ever be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. [Arabs sit in the Knesset, and in courts including the Supreme court of Israel. Apart from Druzes who volunteered for it, they are not subject to military draft. Ciracassians also agreed to serve in the Israeli army and some Bedouin.)
Article VI
The Mohammedan Holy Places shall be under Mohammedan control. [Cf here Israel’s actions in the aftermath of capturing the key sites in 1967 — putting the most holy Jewish site under Muslim supervision.]
Article VII
The Zionist Organization proposes to send to Palestine a Commission of experts to make a survey of the economic possibilities of the country, and to report upon the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will place the aforementioned Commission at the disposal of the Arab State for the purpose of a survey of the economic possibilities of the Arab State and to report upon the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will use its best efforts to assist the Arab State in providing the means for developing the natural resources and economic possibilities thereof. [That is, mutual cooperation in development of the entire region. What a difference that would have made!]
Article VIII
The parties hereto agree to act in complete accord and harmony on all matters embraced herein before the Peace Congress [i.e the congress producing the Versailles treaty, predicated on recognising the legitimacy of aspirations of nationalist groups].
Article IX
Any matters of dispute which may arise between the contracting parties hall be referred to the British Government for arbitration. [Holder of the land after successful, defensive war against the Central powers including the Ottoman Empire, thus, prospective Mandatory power.]
Given under our hand at London, England, the third day of January, one thousand nine hundred and nineteen
Chaim Weizmann Feisal Ibn-Hussein
Reservation by the Emir Feisal
If the Arabs are established as I have asked in my manifesto of 4 January, addressed to the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, I will carry out what is written in this agreement. If changes are made, I cannot be answerable for failing to carry out this agreement. [The Brits dis not live up to the bargain in part, the military situation in Arabia cost the al Husseinis their base there, and as noted the Arab state was broken up into several states, two ruled by al Husseinis, one still so ruled.]
_______
Now, compare the implications and predictable consequences of the letter and spirit of the above, to the actual history of the policy of Muftism which has unfortunately prevailed on the Arab side since the 1920’s (not least by violence against moderate Arabs).
GEM of TKI
Kairosfocus:
PI, C obviously has made up his mind already regardless of the mere facts on the ground, and their implications. Do not stoop to trying to have a quarrel with him.
————————————————————————————————————————–
I only ask,after reading the above posts,if the same can not be said for PI also.
You would try to have every one on this blog accept everything you say as gospel.It is so obvious in your always mentioned “onlookers note”.
Unlike you, I do not need an audience because I do not have a message to distribute.
What I post can be researched anytime as it is well documented.
Most of the points by myself ,Inkwell,Maat etc. are proven and documented by some of the leading Human Rights Organizations in the world.
The time and effort you take to try to discredit these findings at all time is testament to your obvious agenda.
You can sum this up as red herrings or straw men ,as you always do.
I have never once said the Palestinians are blameless.
What annoys me is that people like you,with all your education,research and principles have an obligation to seek the truth no matter where it takes you but you all fall short because of your obvious biases.
You remind me of my Sunday school teacher who was offended when I asked at the age of 9…’If God made a mistake,how will we ever know’.
From that day,I have always been a free thinker and will continue to be.I have no time for religious affiliations or religious agendas,I believe in right and wrong and I will call it as I see it.
You on the other hand are committed to your religious beliefs and are mandated as such to follow them. I wish you all the best in the future.
On that note this is where I end any further discussion with you or anyone else on this topic.
The floor is now yours to continue your work.
Good morning. Just checking in, and will have to read and make another post later. It has been many years that educationalists have tried to delegitimise. Is this going to be for the rest of our lives, or will we talk, and make a way in the Caribbean?
My name is Pro-Israel. I would like to take the lead. As leader of peace-making I am hereby declaring a ceasefire. Rockets are still being launched and the IDF arrested the leader of Hamas armed wing in the W. Bank. This should stop.
Any partners out there?
Can a dialogue be undertaken?
Bearing in mind that our opinions make very little difference on the ground can we pursue a Bajan model together towards a peace agreement?
At the risk of being long winded, I quote below the text of UNSC Resolution 242 for the sake of onlookers who are unfamiliar with it:
The Security Council,
“Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,
Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,
1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
* Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
* Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
2. Affirms further the necessity
* For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;
* For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;
* For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;
3. Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;
4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.”
Nowhere in the resolution is a distinction made between an offensive or defensive war. It simply and clearly emphasizes “the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war” but K wants to introduce this sophistry to justify Israel’s refusal to comply with the resolution.
On the basis of this error of interpretation alone, his argument fails. Game, set and match!!
Whose?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
Quote:
Interpretation
Broadly speaking, Israel interprets Resolution 242 as calling for a withdrawal from territory as part of a negotiated peace and full diplomatic recognition. The extent of withdrawals would come as a result of comprehensive negotiations that led to durable peace.
Initially, most of the Arab world rejected Resolution 242. Today, the general Arab position is that the Resolution calls for Israel to withdraw from all the territory it occupied during the Six-Day War as a precondition to the start of peace negotiations.
Both parties point to the wording of the resolution to back their claims.
Supporters of the “Israeli viewpoint” focus on the operative phrase calling for “secure and recognized boundaries” and note that the resolution calls for a withdrawal “from territories” rather than “from the territories.” This finds support from the resolution’s drafters, this means Israel need not withdraw from all territory. Further, the United Nations had never recognized the West Bank as [de jure] Jordanian territory nor the Gaza Strip as Egyptian territory and could not enforce their claims to sovereignty.
Supporters of the “Palestinian viewpoint” focus on the preambulatory phrase emphasizing the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war,” and note that certain, albeit unofficial, translations of the resolution include the word “the” in the phrase “from the territories.”
Supporters of the Israeli viewpoint note that this phrase would also apply to Israeli territory in the Jordan Valley captured by Syria in 1948, which Israel recaptured during the Six Day War. Syria believes that 242 requires that Israel return that territory to Syria. Furthermore, the second part of that same sentence in the preamble recognizes the need of existing states to live in security.
When someone[in this case Israel] wants to justify any action[whether legal or illegal] they want to take against another party,they will find all sorts of excuses,as in this case the “wording”.
This just brings me back to the u.s. “detaining” the enemy[taliban and others] in the war in afghanistan.remember the word that was used {no,it isnt P.O.W} that all of us in our entire lives never heard before……..”illegal combatants”.
well,birds of a feather ………..
And by way,dont tell me that these talibans were just a ragtag group and not legit,bcos as far as i know they were being courted by u.s officials pre sept/11. [oil pipeline,trade among other things].
US haters, Israel bashers, left wing educationalists, religious extremists. Of course all 100% right thinking.
“I’m the winner!”
How long will it take to start to work together?
That way we/you aren’t ALL losers.
Hello, anyone out there?
This is so far unproductive, but I’ll wait. This is the way it is…waiting for compromise. It’s like reality…………..
…………….in Israel.
It would be so good to help to make peace, but you’re pushing us/it away.
Go ahead, keep taking shots. It doesn’t help the cause, it makes it worse, the so-called “cycle of violence”.
Is this such a hard thing to understand.
Come on, start to blog about what can be done constructively to start peace? So far we have a cease fire. Where to next?
For gosh sake, what the hell is wrong with you? You fed up with yourself? Go to bed and try and get a good night’s sleep and stop aggravating people, do.
Wuhloss, but you guys can talk!
You clearly have far, far too much time on your hands.
I kind of feel sorry for you…
Onlookers:
Observe, first, the utter failure to afddress the substantial matter: credible evidence sufficient to persuade pres Jagdeo that Caribbean Muslims, dating back to the mid 1990’s, have been sufficiently implicated in abombing plot targetting the JFK airport that they have a case to answer for. That has serious implications for our region’s security, and for what moderate Muslims urgently need to do to distance them selves from violence and to police the Islamic community.
Observe too, the onward pattern of argument on the hot-button red herring of Israel, on the part especially of C and I, by failure to address key underlying facts [start with the 1919 agreement I put into play yesterday], and by insistence on patterns of argument that distract attention from the merits on fact and their implications or best explanation.
1] C:
For instance, having jumped on the bandwagon of false accusations of Genocide several days ago and having refused to distance himself or apologise, C now evidently wishes to cite “leading human rights organisations” as if their alleged authority blanket-substantiates his claims, and excuses him from addressing the merits on facts and logic.
Then, on inspection of C’s claims, they are without merit and/or credibility. Worse, C fails to substantiate on being challenged, instead citing “authorities” on one side of a disputed matter as if that settles the matter absent examination of the credible material facts and the reasoning presented relative to those facts.
As to my “agenda,” it is indeed obvious and long since openly stated: TO MOVE THE CARIBBEAN’S “EDUCATED” ELITES FROM IMPROPER BASES FOR THOUGHT, ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSION (e.g. BLINDING EMOTIONS, BLIND USE OF “AUTHORITY”) TO ADDRESSING MATTERS ON THE MERITS. In short, we need to fix our region’s education system, bigtime, or we will pay a horrible price for our inability to think straight. [I will provide two links below on how we can make a start, DV and filter permitting.]
In that pursuit, I have taken time to present responsible information, only to see C now try to insist that this somehow itself discredits me as agenda-driven!
For shame!
2] I:
Now as to I’s assertion: “Nowhere in the resolution is a distinction made between an offensive or defensive war. It simply and clearly emphasizes “the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war” but K wants to introduce this sophistry to justify Israel’s refusal to comply with the resolution.”
–> It takes two to tango, and I conveniently omits the context that at Khartoum Sept 1, 1967, the Arab League resolved: no recognition of Israel, no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel. And when Egypt broke from the pack in 1977 – 79, it was sanctioned within the league and its president assassinated. (Sadat’s example has in large part prevailed at length over a decade after he died at the hands of terrorist Islamists in his own army.)
–> Next, 242 and 338 do not stand on their own in a vacuum, they are a part of the context of international relations over the centuries and the facts of the actual situation. It is well-established over those many years that when a state defends itself from attack and in so doing captures territories [especially those used as a platform for the aggression — here, Golan, W Bank, Sinai, Straights of Tiran, Gaza], it has no obligation to hand over such buffer zones absent a resolution of the underlying conflict. For the obvious reasons: it may not be so lucky to successfully defend itself next time, and aggressors should not be sent the message that if they lose “this time” the int’l community will give them back their launch-pad for aggression. [Indeed, in ’56, Tiran had been closed and Israel struck, then under American pressure and Guarantees, withdrew to have UN forces put in place. Ten years later Nasser simply told U Thant to go home, and he did. War was hte immediate result of reimposing the same strangling blockade. Especially after the same int’l community failed to live up to even token obligations to keep the straights free for innocent passage.]
–> Onlookers can easily enough observe that 242 speaks to just such resolution of the underlying conflict through negotiation as the context for resolving the matter.
–> Further to this, some of the territories involved strictly are disputed not occupied; i.e as I showed yesterday, they are not the accepted property of any recognised established state, and in part were captured by the Arab side from the Israeli and/or International portions under the 1947 partition [whihc was rejected byt eh Arab league who set out on a war of declarative annihilation]
–> Then, too, it should be noted that 242 does not sanctify the 1949 ceasefire lines, but instead speaks of secure borders. In short, it recognises that the territories in question are in material part open to negotiation. (That is the context of rejecting acquisition of territories simply by war.
–> That is, there needs to be a negotiation and there needs to be mutually agreed, reasonable borders as a result, pace Khartoum. That has now happened with Egypt and Jordan, but not with Syria and the case of the Palestinian claims in the aftermath of the failed attempts at wiping out the Israelis in 1948 and 1967 and 1973, has been that of walkaway form reasonable compromise and taking up flimsy excuses to resort to terrorism and murder. There are even major spokesmen of the Palestinian Arabs on record that their “nationalism” is tactical, not real, the better to forward the agenda of destroying Israel by first getting a platform for further aggression.)]
–> Finally, observe how “I” fails to address material factors long since pointed out, and resorts instead to dismissal by personal abuse through the term “sophistry.” Such reflects his basic want of civility and disrespect for facts and their meanings. THAT is a major part of what we need to fix, if we the educated people of the Caribbean are to be in any wise ready for the world stage as agents of peace and reconciliation, instead of mere manipulated pawns.
3] Etc
As to Cheesecutter’s dismissal of addressing “wording” and by extension material context, this shows utter disrespect for the importance of our ability to reason relative to facts and their implications or best implication. Words are the main tools of thought, communication and agreement, so we must respect them, not simply brush them aside when they are not convenient.
BTW, PI, it is the authors of the 242 who have pointed out that the omission of “the” in the official English text [which is intended to prevail in interpretation] was intentional and in rejection of the USSR’s attempt to insert the term.
Given what had happened in the aftermath of 1956 -7 over Sinai, in May 1967, it could hardly be otherwise.
For, that first time, Israel did hand over “the” territories, only to have to confront a far more dangerous threat ten years later. Had the intended attack of May 27 gone through, Eilat would have likely been cut off and Dimona captured. That would have directly threatened the existence of Israel and would probably have led to nuclear war, most likely involving the super powers. (Recall here the USSR’s role in arming Egypt and Syria, resupplying them during the fighting, and false accusation against Israel about attacking Syria, which directly triggered the escalation to fighting. The shooting down by Israel of 5 MiGs piloted by Russians fighting for Egypt in 1969 gives a picture of what lurked behind the scenes.)
Finally, S, the matters are important and revealing of what we need to do to fix our region’s education system, if we are to survive in the tough century ahead instead of becoming simply pawns in somebody else’s games.
GEM of TKI
Hi Inkwell, I’ve finally, managed to have a brief look at two of the links with which you provided me – there was a computer problem with the Independent link.
I ‘admire’ you guys for being so knowledgable of this subject but regret I’m unable to share your enthusiasm. It’s just so difficult for me to understand why you should be so, bothered, especially Kairfocus. I think that I may have asked him before if he was a muslim but I can’t recall receiving a reply. At least then, I might be able to see some reason for this obsession.
Forgive me guys, but I’ve got to care more about the problems of my own people. I’ve no reason to believe that either the Jews or the Muslims care two pence about me so I can’t invest too, much of my time worrying about them!
However, I wish you guys, luck in your endeavours!
Regards.
PS: Sorry on an unclosed tag.
1] On straight thinking, go here for a basic intro through a slide show turned into a PDF.
2] On more serious [worldviews level] analysis, go here for a toolkit used in a course presented at a leading Seminary in the region.
3] On de-spinning media etc go here.
Hi B;
A parting note on your: I’ve no reason to believe that either the Jews or the Muslims care two pence about me . . .
Actually, if the Muslims in question are IslamISTS, they care very much about you — to subjugate you and me and many others under Islamic rule, globally, by force.
This has roots in e.g. the last but one Surah of the Quran [that therefore prevails in the Islamic system of interpretation] esp 9:5 and 29. The former – the “Sword Verse” — mandates conquest of pagans with the choice of conversion or the sword. The latter, conquest of Jews and Christians [we in the Caribbean by and large fall under the latter group] and by extension other major religions, reducing them to Apartheid-like dhimmitude.
For all the arguemnts of more moderate Muslims thatt his Surah should not be read or applied as mandating global conquest through Jihad, we need to reckon, for our own safety, liberty and survival, that the IslamISTS, all 100 – 150 millions or so of them, do not agree. Further tot his, there is abundant history over 1400 years to substantiate just how these patterns of teaching and example have been applied once Islamist-inclined states have had enough power. Current events in places like Philipines, Indonesia, Thailand, Sudan [including a slave trade!] and Nigeria are not very encouraging either.
Thus, the sort of issues we have seen in recent years with:
–> 1990: Abu Bakrs’ coup attempt in Trinidad
–> 1990’s attempts by Afroz of UWI History Dept et al to assert [on historically and anthropologically quite weak grounds] that the slaves in Jamaica and by extension the wider region were predominantly Muslim. In Islamist eyes, this mandates the claim that these Islands are Islamic territory to be retaken, if necessary by force — just as they view Spain, Portugal and Israel.
–> 2001 – 2: The Shoe Bomber [son of a Jamaican Father]
–> 2003 – 7: el Faisal, the “terrorist- father” Imam in the UK, a Jamaican convert to Islam trained in Guyana and Saudi Arabia
–> 2005- 6: the London bombings, including the Jamaican convert at Kings Cross station
–> 2001 on: el Shukrijumah, al Qaeda’s delegate in the region, tasked to attack targets here inthe hemisphere. [NB the BWIA plane shown on an ISlamist site blowing up!]
–> 200’s on: The Hezbollah base in Venezuela, and the growing alliance between the Chavez regime and Iran
–> 1995 – 2007: the JFK bombing plot, implicating Trinidadian and Guyanese Muslims, and with questions on connexions to Iran and el Shukrijumah.
In short, a “head in the sand” attitude is liable to get us in deep, deep trouble.
GEM of TKI
kairosfocus
June 24th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Hi B;
A parting note on your: I’ve no reason to believe that either the Jews or the Muslims care two pence about me . . .
Actually, if the Muslims in question are IslamISTS, they care very much about you — to subjugate you and me and many others under Islamic rule, globally, by force.
In short, a “head in the sand” attitude is liable to get us in deep, deep trouble.
*********************
So why yuh supporting dum den, Kairfocus, or have I got that wrong! Sorry, have n’t read all the posts!
Seriously, like some lonely old rambling guys talking to themselves in a rum shop.
All this passion, all these words: and for a blog which just a handful of people will read…
kairofocus gets orgasms when he writes those long posts full of sewerage!
i mean how can one man spend so much of his time coming onto a blog to spread his propaganda? he needs a life or a woman to occupy him!
i bet someone that he will respond to me talking about “onlookers observe” and “red herrings” and “straw man” and “failure to address the substantial matter”. he will then write a few hundred or thousand words of garbage and link to right wing sites.
then man has an agenda and tries to couch it in big long academic posts.
he will challenge me to respond to him. man i gots me some sunday lunch waiting and my woman for desert. i got a life and no time to waste arguing with the likes of you!
Samizdat,
You sure it’s as much as a handful? Everyone I know who reads BFP choopse their mouths when you mention the name Kairofocus. I NEVER read his posts when there are so many interesting items on the blog to read and digest.
POB and Samizdat, I agree with your comments and glad you kept them clean.
Posts above show lack of anything to say. More of the same:
“I’m right”! “You’re an idiot”!
Simple abuse, but nothing to debate or add to.
Shall we move on to an analysis of Oslo 1993 Accords, now that we are finished with 242?
Maybe it will give someone an idea for a possible peace plan?
I enjoy the debate between Kairosfocus, Inkwell, Chase, Pro-Israel, Maat, J Payne and others who make informed posts from time to time. I have as a result learnt a lot about the Middle East issues.
However, I gained nothing from the recent posts of Samizdat and “feeling good”.
kairos focus, do you really feel that ‘onlookers ‘ go through and read all those links and comments that you provide? personally i feel you should be short and to the point.then i would certainly give it a thought. leave all that long talk for a lecture hall.
how come you never mentioned the u.s ,britain and france’s role in the mideast war by means of armory and more importantly intel. ,or bcos u want to conveniently leave that out.
in any war and even today,control of the skies gives a distinct edge to any party.and that was primarly why israel won that war.
when onlookers see your posts [or some of it bcos of the length of it ] they will obviously come to conclusion that u r biased and not balanced.
i dont know how u do it ,but writing this post alone took so long to do.
Onlookers:
It is worth a pause to remark on another aspect of the main post. Namely, the implicaiton in the ironic title that there is a tendency to improperly assert or assume an immoral equivalency between Bible-believing Christians and Islamist radicals and terrorists.
Now, the usual first rhetorical distortion here is to (sometimes, ignorantly) twist a word that has a proper meaning in the history of Christian resistance to the secularist, skeptical and rationalist apostasy of the early C20, and use it as a a slippery smear word: “fundamentalist.” The insinuation is that anyone who looks to an alleged source of revelation from God as an anchor for his or her faith, is irrational and prone to violence, so one can seamlessly glide from bin Laden’s suicide bombers to your friendly Evangelicals who meet in the church down the street. For me, the capital example of this in our region is a statement in the Gleaner newspaper of Jamaica within a few weeks of the 9/11 attacks, in which a leading United Church spokesman (shortly thereafter, in 2003, elected Moderator!), Dr Roderick Hewitt, wrote:
“The human tragedy in USA has also served to bring into sharp focus the use of terror by religious fanatics/fundamentalists. Fundamentalism or fundamentalists are terms that are applicable to every extreme conservative in every religious system . . . . During the twentieth century in particular we have seen the rise of militant expression of these faiths by extreme conservatives who have sought to respond to what they identify as ‘liberal’ revisions that have weakened the fundamentals of their faith . . . They opt for a belligerent, militant and separatist posture in their public discourse that can easily employ violence to achieve their goals. [Gleaner, Sept. 26, 2001, italics added.]”
As BFP highlights in the very headline of the original post, this sort of rhetoric is libel, blood libel!
For, as the just linked amplifies, from the 1890’s to 1920’s, in response to the slide into the modernist apostasy [which indeed championed the idea that revelation could be dismissed as a basis of knowledge of God and our situation, instead kowtowing to the latest fads in selectively hyper-skeptical philosophy and so-called scientific evolutionary materialism . . .] several leading theologians in the major Protestant Denominations and a great many Christians stood up for biblically anchored fundamentals of the Christian faith: the authenticity and authority of the scriptures, the deity of Christ, his incarnation as Saviour, his salvific death and resurrection, his expected return. (All of this can be explored starting at the linked.) They were of course targetted for ridicule and worse, Dr Gresham Machen — a great scholar in his own right — actually being formally and unjustly expelled from his church which had been captured by the “modernists.” The bitterness across the resulting divide is sad, but all too understandable.
Thereafter, in the media, “fundamentalist” became a smear word, and latterly, it was simply extended to any “conservative” movement across the major religions. Of course, that includes Islamist terrorists. Then, freshly smeared with blood, the term is without further ado, brought back to libel Evangelical Christians [as Dr Hewitt did in the cite above]. But, as BFP implies by an ironic headline — we simply do not see ordinary Evangelical Christians or today’s Catholics or religious Jews indulging in any significant violence — the odd madman notwithstanding. Indeed, on the evidence, most Muslims are not blood-crazed fanatics. So, the sort of rhetoric Dr Hewitt indulged is the worst sort of bigotry and atmosphere poisoning, and such offensive and libellous use of the term “fundamentalist” or similar terms should cease at once.
Of course “the Crusades” is bound to come up in such a matter.
To that, the immediate and proper response is that this sad episode in the history of the church arose in an era in which illiteracy stalked event he royal throne, and in which the Bible was simply not accessible to the common man, sometimes even to the clergy!
In that context, the teachings on justice as the qualification and test of the stewardship of state power [e.g. Rom 13:1 – 7], respect for all and the like were forgotten or ignored, and in a hasty reaction tot he threat of the Islamic invasions and depredations against pilgrims in the Holy Land, war of the worst sort was resorted to.
It is noteworthy that so soon as the Bible was put in the hands of the ordinary man in his native language, it triggered centuries of liberation struggle and reformation, which materially contributed to the rise of modern liberty and democracy as we enjoy it. [This is yet another well-grounded fact of history that is too often overlooked or even violently objected to . . .]. Further to this, the church most directly associated with the crusades, in the person of the immediate past Pope, has gone on public pilgrimages of institutional apology and repentance from these sins, which cut clean across the spirit and teachings of the Gospel.
In short, we need to be fair-minded and respectful of people, including being careful to mark the difference between ordinary decent law-abiding people and violent morally benighted, conscience-numbed fanatics: Christian, Jewish and Muslim — or for that matter, Atheists.
GEM of TKI
Onlookers:
I see my comment on the improper immoral equivalency issue headlined by BFP is awaiting moderation, probbaly as it has two links in it.
Now, let us follow up on a few points:
1] More on Ms Corrie:
You will recall that someone above linked as his first reference on the crimes of the Jews of Israel, an article that began with a bald reference to the “murder” of Ms Corrie by the Israelis. I objected and it has not been followed up by that party. But, onlookers may find the following points useful, in the main from Honest Reporting and Wiki, with a look at the D9 pics and comments at Israeli-Weapons:
–> Ms Corrie was a part of the movement ISM, which supports the Palestinian Armed Struggle, i.e terrorism, and was found to be harbouring terrorists.
–> The incident occurred on Mar 16, 2003, when the Israelis were seeking to destroy arms-smuggling tunnels; for the “armed struggle.”
–> In that context, ISM circulated a photo made some hours before the incident, giving the false impression that Ms Corrie was plainly visible to the driver of the D9 armoured bulldozer [which the Israelis normally have soldiers outside to guide as visibility is significantly restriced, but that day they were concerned about snipers]
–> One of the ISM activists reportedly testified, as HR notes: >> “Smith says that the photo of Corrie “standing with megaphone” is ascribed to the time period 2pm-4pm. In addition, during this period, Smith notes that the bulldozer “always stopped in time to avoid injuring them.” At the time of Corrie’s death (5pm), Smith describes Corrie as “sitting, with arms waving” (no megaphone), and another colleague holding the megaphone from a distance. Additionally, one key point that Smith does not mention is that the bulldozers shown in the two photos are different types. The later photo is a bulldozer with much smaller windows, and hence reduced visibility.>>
–> HR also notes as at June 2003: >>An investigation conducted by a branch of the Israeli judiciary concluded that Rachel Corrie, who was in a closed military zone and interfering with IDF operational activities, was killed by accident. “The driver at no point saw or heard Corrie,” a military source said. “She was standing behind debris which obstructed the view of the driver and the driver had a very limited field of vision due to the protective cage he was working in.” “The [‘dozer] driver and his commanders were interrogated extensively over a long period of time with the use of polygraph tests and video evidence. They had no knowledge that she was standing in the path of the tractor. An autopsy of Corrie’s body revealed that the cause of death was from falling debris and not from the tractor physically rolling over her,” the source stated.>>
–> Wiki adds: >>The IDF produced a video about Corrie’s death that includes footage taken from inside the cockpit of a D9. It makes a “credible case,” Joshua Hammer wrote in Mother Jones, that “the operators, peering out through narrow, double-glazed, bulletproof windows, their view obscured behind pistons and the giant scooper, might not have seen Corrie kneeling in front of them.”[11] Because the Caterpillar D9 bulldozers have a restricted field of vision with several blind spots, Israeli army regulations normally require that other soldiers assist in directing bulldozer drivers, but the Israeli army commander of the Gaza Strip said in an interview broadcast on Israeli television that, on the day of Corrie’s death, soldiers had to stay in their armored vehicles and were not able to direct the bulldozer, or arrest the protesters, because of the threat of Palestinian snipers.>>
–> In short, this is at minimum, reasonable doubt on a “murder” charge, and IMHCO, it points strongly to accident occasioned on foolish behaviour, in a highly questionable cause. So, those who blow up a doubtful at best incident into the headlined accusation “murder” have much to answer for.
2] B:why yuh supporting dum den, Kairfocus, or have I got that wrong!
As the moderated will show, and the above on closer inspection, I mark a proper distinction between ordinary, decent, law abiding people who happen to be Muslims and violent fanatics, a distinct but unfortunately seriously problematic minority.
3] FG: propaganda
You aptly illustrate the problem I have highlighted: lack of capacity and/or willingness to re-examine one’s ideas, assumptions and assertions in light of material facts that just don’t fit the picture commonly presented in the usual media outlets, slogans, catch phrases, headlines, punditry etc.
Fallacies such as red herrings that distract from an inconvenient line of thought and facts [here, the problem of Islamist fanaticism and the tendency to smear Christians and Jews etc with the blood-libel of immoral equivalency], to lead out to a convenient caricatured strawman that can be “lighted up” with hot rhetoric and then used to attack and dismiss or discredit those who are pointing to inconvenient facts and issues, is a classic pattern of deceptive thought.
That is why our education system needs to be fixed to teach us sufficient critical thinking skills that we will not be easy meat for manipulators such as those who indulge in the sort of blood libels we see above.
As to the notion, that one has no time to attend to or respond to inconvenient truth, or — worse — no time to correct mistaken and abusive or even bigoted notions, that is itself the worst form of admission of failure to do one’s duty to the truth and the right. Too often, that is a characteristic sign of bigoted, probably hostile, closed-mindedness.
4] POB and FA:
You, sadly, amply further illustrate the same problem just described under 3. PI is right: Simple abuse, but nothing to debate or add to
5] C: short and to the point
Sometimes, brevity — though valuable in principle — is not the sole criterion of judging the worth of a communication, especially when one is dealing with factually-anchored correction of deep-rooted misconceptions. (Much of the punch in many a witty or cuttingly funny remark comes from appealing to prejudice, misconceptions and even ill-founded hostility. I have sought not to be witty but to lay out facts that will stand the test of serious examination, and reasoned arguments relative thereto, at relatively brief length, compared to the weighty tomes and huge web sites in which the originals can be found . . . ]
6] biased and not balanced
I have given a balancING corrective to biased and/or ill-founded remarks, assertions and assumptions, on seeing the thread repeatedly pulled away from its proper focus — which I have repeatedly drawn attention to: the implications of the JFK bombing plot issue.
More to the point the issue is strictly not bias vs balance, but eh weight of material facts and their implications or else their best explanation. That is not a function of style or length but of substance on the merits.
It is highly telling onlookers, that time after time, the facts I have adduced cannot be confuted (or else they would have been long since pounced on), and the persons who made false assertions and accusations then sought to either silently walk away form the worst of blood libels [e.g “genocide”, “murder”] or else have attacked the man, and now the style rather than engaging the substance. It is the substance that counts.
6] The 6-day war:
I have already remarked adequately on this above, simply scroll up onlookers.
(And, onlookers, courtesy BFP’s circle of commenters, you have genuine, effective, live-tested points for the next time someone says ill-informed, bigoted or just plain foolish things about the ME. ;-). )
So thanks for the help in corrective education efforts . . .
GEM of TKI
Kairosfocus, bless. What would we do without you!!!! 🙂
B;
Thanks again for the kind words, before I head back to the sack for a short bit of “ugly” sleep – can’t call it “beauty” sleep!
GEM of TKI
Onlookers:
Oh yes . . .while stifling a yawn;
This just in, courtesy JVL, on what is really at stake under all of the posturing, rocketing, complaints about “occupation” and rhetoric — contrast the above on the 1919 Weizmann-Feisal agreement, then read the implications of the Afroz thesis [on the alleged Islamic historical roots of Jamaica, cf, always linked] and its extensions that Afro-and Asio-Caribbean states are Islamic territory to be reclaimed:
_____________
“First of all this Palestinian land, and all the Arabic nation, is all part of the same area. In the past, there was no independent Palestinian state; there was no independent Jordanian state; and so on. There were regions called Iraq or Egypt, but they were all part of one country….Our main goal is to establish a great Islamic state, be it pan-Arabic or pan-Islamic.”
— Mahmoud A-Zahhar, the leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip
The Media Line, September 22, 2005
“Hamas believes that historical Palestine, that is, all of Palestine, belongs to the Palestinian people….We say that all of Palestine, from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, belongs to the Palestinians. They have a legitimate right to this land.”
— Interview with Hamas Political Bureau deputy head Musa Abu Marzouq,
Dream 2 TV (Sudan), February 13, 2006
“By Allah, I will drive them crazy. By Allah, I will turn this agreement into a curse for them. By Allah, perhaps not in my lifetime, but you will live to see the Israelis flee from Palestine. Have a little patience.”
— Al-Quds Al-Arabi Editor-in-Chief Abd Al-Bari Atwan on Arafat’s comments to him regarding the Oslo agreement ANB TV, February 16, 2006
“The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent arrangement, based on the premise that the war and struggle on the ground [i.e., locally against Israeli territory] is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land… for the Palestinian people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the ’65 revolution…”
— PA Minister of Supply Abd El Aziz Shahian,
Al Ayaam, May 30, 2000.
[The “65 Revolution” is the founding of the PLO
and the publication of the Palestinian covenant that
calls for the destruction of Israel via an armed struggle.]
“I want to say that this is our Palestine, from Metulla [Israel’s northernmost city] to Rafiah [Southern border] and to Aqaba [Israel’s southernmost point], from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea; whether they want it or not.”
— Dr. Jareer Al-Kidwah, advisor to President Arafat,
PA TV broadcast, November 29, 2000
“…we shall return to the 1967 borders, but it does not mean that we have given up on Jerusalem and Haifa, Jaffa, Lod, Ramla, Nayanyah [Al-Zuhour] and Tel Aviv [Tel Al-Rabia]. Never. We shall return to every village we had been expelled from, by Allah’s will….Our approval to return to the 1967 borders is not a concession for our other rights. No!..this generation might not achieve this stage, but generations will come, and the land of Palestine…will demand that the Palestinians return the way Muhammad returned there, as a conqueror.”
— Sheikh Ibrahim Mudyris,
Friday sermon, February 4, 2005
Hamas would “definitely not” be prepared for coexistence with Israel should the IDF retreat to its 1967 borders. “It can be a temporary solution, for a maximum of 5 to 10 years. But in the end Palestine must return to become Muslim, and in the long term Israel will disappear from the face of the earth.”
— Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar
Yediot Ahronot, June 24, 2005
“Our brothers in Jerusalem and the West Bank, I am sure that Gaza is just the beginning of the process… In the next phase, we will defeat the occupation [in your area]… Residents of Occupied Palestine of 1948, in my name and in the name of all Gaza Strip residents, I ask you for your assistance to us and to our Jihad… We shall not rest until our entire holy land is liberated….”
— Muhammad Deif,
Commander of the ‘Izz Al-Din Al-Qassem Brigades,
the military wing of Hamas,
August 27, 2005
“We use one voice in all forums. But we also say that we are dealing realistically with the current phase – an independent Palestinian state with full sovereignty over the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. That is what we presented to our people in our elections platform.”
Interviewer: “Is this a partial or phased solution?”
Musa Abu Marzouq: “Yes, it is a temporary and phased solution. This is not the permanent solution.”
— Interview with Hamas Political Bureau deputy head Musa Abu Marzouq,
Dream 2 TV (Sudan), February 13, 2006
_____________
Of course, that’s not what is said in English, but in Arabic.
So, are we willing to face some not so welcome facts?
GEM of TKI
All of this irrelevant nonsense started and seems to have no end because a few people were arrested in the Caribbean region on allegations of Terrorism against the USA. (blowing up pipelines feeding the Airport)
I suggest that as time goes on and if solutions are not found for the unrest in the mid east other radical groups of all different religious faiths will join in the effort to do what they think is necessary to accomplish their goals.
For all of us to be singling out certain religious factions wherever they may live and crucify them ALL as being bad is as bad as the problem and objectives that the bad ones are doing or plotting to do.
That is just my opinion that no doubt will bring forth the wrath of God on my head.
Why I feel the way I do is this. How many countries besides the Caribbean have thousands of these people sharing space with them that live in peace and want nothing to do with terrorism and other babaric acts against society. Yet let one or two be caught and all others are labelled as the same scum. Life cannot be lived that way!
This sort of rationale is flawed and wrong. There are about 285,000 people living in Bim and 90 % are black. That in itself stands to reason that most of the overall crime there is most likely being committed by blacks. Are we going to put all blacks in that catregory? I realize the causes and problems in the Islam, Muslim World is far more complex than the example I give but the moral of the point I am trying to make is the same.
Plover
You have a point in general, but should also note:
1] Where someone did try to blame “all muslims” above, he was strongly corrected.
2] We have identified that there is a minority within the global and indeed the regional Islamic community, properly and conveniently called IslamISTS, who are unfortunately prone to violence; as opposed to the majority of Muslims. (We even noted above that the median victim of Islamist terrorism is a Muslim.)
3] On the JFK issue, we have notes that there are several other incidents/cases of Caribbean or Caribbean derived Islamists, with sufficient implications for the region that we need to think about the matter seriously as a region and for those who are Muslims within the region as well. (E.G., we need to think about the implications of the evidence that convinced Pres Jagdeo that there is a case to answer, and about how many of us tend to dismiss such a case in a way that suggests that we are not driven by concern for truth or justice but by hostility to Western powers, which too often warps our judgement.)
4] The ME issues came up above by way of a red herring, which has been addressed because it also happens to have in it all too relevant ingredients that speak into our own situation.
GEM of TKI
Kairosfocus
As a non Muslim, I understand your concern and perhaps fear of the motives or radical Islam as expressed in the 9th Surah, particularly 9:5 and 9:29.
My belief is that moderate Islam, which is represented by the great majority of the Muslim world, will overrule the small minority of extreme Islamists and continue to live in peace with other religions. The radicals who choose not to conform will be dealt with under the law.
I think that you have allowed that fear to colour your objectivity towards the Israel/Palestinian situation. That problem is not one of Islam vs the rest of us, where we must side with the rest at all costs. That conflict is a question of simple right and wrong, of the powerful unfairing the weak, of the denial of a people’s self determination, of the denial of basic human rights. It should not be reduced to the concept of cutting off one of the tentacles of a monster, which you perceive Islam to be.
Moderate Palestinians from the days of Arafat representing Fatah have ceased to call for the destruction of Israel and have accepted a two state solution. Israel’s refusal to accede to this course of action on terms which could reasonable be accepted by the Palestinians has only served to strengthen the radical movement, represented by Hamas, and spawned the cycle of violence we have been seeing. Israel has the right to defend itself against extremists, but that does not give them the right to collectively punish all Palestinians.
In the spirit of reasonableness, I appeal to you to soften your heart and recognize the pain and suffering of the Palestinians as a people and not as Muslims.
One of the things we are failing to recognize with these radical extremists is this. They are using their cultural rights and laws to advance their evil ways.
These segments of the violent cultures under discussion start teaching innocent little children violence is the only way. They are taught to use guns, grenades and rocket launchers when they should be pitching marbles, playing sports etc. The women are treated like slaves and dirt and can lose their lives in the twinkling of an eye if they object and most of the elders also fear for their lives for the same reasons.
When you have human garbage that willingly kill themselves and innocent people to advance their causes and hide among the innocent to prevent retaliation from the NATO forces how can you lump them in with the millions who want no part of it.
China is almost as bad but without the violence against the world YET simply because they are using the world to make them powerful and then look out.
What about Nazi Germany it took only one madman to try and wipe the world and certain segments of society off of the map, but that was not the philosophy of the average German but to say anything you would be killed. We have to keep these situations in perspective because none of us thank God has ever had to live under such tyrannical monsters and some segments of their culture.
Such high-minded objection to the muslims, Chinese and Nazis but apparently, can excuse the madness and incivility, of our ‘friends’!!!!!!!!!!
I in naming nuh names!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That last post was addressed to Plover, but, ‘Kairosfocus’, you win de Nobel Prize for Peace yet?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂
Bimbro man you surprise me with your last post. I did not condone the radical Islam Muslim cultures for what they are doing I thought I had made that explicitly clear. And I thought that my comparison to these cultures with the Chinese, Nazis etc was quite appropriate. But my point was this.
How can you make all peoples of this culture or any culture bad because of some. I cant subscribe to that thinking!
Still no peace partner. No suggestions, only demands and accusations.
In 1973 was the Yom Kippur War (not the fish), where all the surrounding Arabian armies surprise-attacked Israel. Unfortunately, or luckily, depending on which side one is on, Israel won.
But it was close and scary for Israel. The IDF doesn’t go home on Yom Kippur any more.
At first in 1973 Israel was almost defeated and destroyed, as was the plan, but rallied and eventually managed to gain initiative.
Israel had been caught napping on a Jewish holy day of fasting and repentance, almost routed, while the defense forces were on sabbatical, sent away, sitting in homes resting and in synagogues.
It has been said Israel has to win every war, all for nothing beneficial to itself, except survival.
It is said at the same time that Israel’s enemies (and one has to say this word in the hope that some day enemies will become friends) only have to win one time, resulting in Israel’s demise.
As a result Israel is strong and vigilant.
One should not confuse a willing compromise for weakness.
What writers in above posts suggest will almost certainly not happen. It is not realistic, and does not make Israel secure. For peace Israel will have to receive something too- guaranteed survival. It’s still at war today, but one can still work for peace.
Peace almost happened in 1993.
The Oslo Accords 1993-94
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords
[edit] Principles of the Accords
In essence, the accords called for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank and affirmed a Palestinian right of self-government within those areas through the creation of a Palestinian Authority. Palestinian rule would last for a five year interim period during which a permanent agreement would be negotiated (beginning no later than May 1996). Permanent issues such as Jerusalem, refugees, Israeli settlements in the area, security and borders were deliberately excluded from the Accords and left to be decided. The interim self-government was to be granted in phases. Until a final status accord was established, West Bank and Gaza would be divided into three zones:
Area A – full control of the Palestinian Authority.
Area B – Palestinian civil control and Israeli security control.
Area C – full Israeli control, except over Palestinian civilians. These areas were Israeli settlements and security zones without a significant Palestinian population.
Together with the principles the two groups signed Letters of Mutual Recognition – The Israeli government recognized the PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people while the PLO recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist and renounced terrorism, violence and its desire for the destruction of Israel.
The aim of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations was to establish a Palestinian Interim Self-Government Authority, an elected Council, for the Palestinian people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, for a transitional period not exceeding five years, leading to a permanent settlement based on Resolution 242 and Resolution 338, an integral part of the whole peace process.
In order that the Palestinians should govern themselves according to democratic principles, free and general political elections would be held for the Council.
Jurisdiction of the Palestinian Council would cover the West Bank and Gaza Strip, except for issues that would be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations. The two sides viewed the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as a single territorial unit.
The five-year transitional period would commence with the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area. Permanent status negotiations would begin as soon as possible between Israel and the Palestinians. The negotiations would cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest.
There would be a transfer of authority from the IDF to the authorized Palestinians, concerning education and culture, health, social welfare, direct taxation, and tourism.
The Council would establish a strong police force, while Israel would continue to carry the responsibility for defending against external threats.
An Israeli-Palestinian Economic Cooperation Committee would be established in order to develop and implement in a cooperative manner the programs identified in the protocols.
A redeployment of Israeli military forces in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would take place.
The Declaration of Principles would enter into force one month after its signing. All protocols annexed to the Declaration of Principles and the Agreed Minutes pertaining to it, should be regarded as part of it.
Mutual recognition. The parties signed it.
If an elected government does not recognise a treaty its predecessor signed, then what of the law?
If an elected government signs a treaty, follows it in English but not in Arabic…..what?
Naturally there will be great arguments and blame casting over who broke what, but in the end there is continued suffering and we have not helped anyone.
Give this bloke his due (Jew?!) – yes, pun intended, he doesn’t give up. Harsh, dictatorial, unrelenting – exactly how they all treat staff and customers in businesses.
I do feel that one day I shall talk to you as a friend. Hey, call me an optimist.
But tell me one thing:
WHO
ARE
THEY
Now be a good fellow, go change your name.
Plover
June 25th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Bimbro man you surprise me with your last post. I did not condone the radical Islam Muslim cultures for what they are doing I thought I had made that explicitly clear. And I thought that my comparison to these cultures with the Chinese, Nazis etc was quite appropriate. But my point was this.
How can you make all peoples of this culture or any culture bad because of some. I cant subscribe to that thinking!
****************************
Hi Plover, sorry if I mis-interpreted what you said. You know, I’m often too, lazy to check too, carefully, what somebody said and so, may get it wrong.
Obviously, not everybody can be evil (I suppose) but, as far as I’m concerned, 99% of them are! That does n’t mean that I could n’t get my hands pun a sweet, little one I used to know in my youth, right now, but she disappear! I doan know way she day now!!!!!!!!!!!! Lord!!!!!!!!!!!
Dis ‘Pro-Israel’/Kairosfocus ting still going on???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pride of Barbados
June 26th, 2007 at 1:39 am
Give this bloke his due (Jew?!) – yes, pun intended, he doesn’t give up. Harsh, dictatorial, unrelenting – exactly how they all treat staff and customers in businesses.
*****************************
POB, wha u saying, exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂
Hi Bimbro,
I’m a very simple person, and I don’t pretend to know much about the Arab/Israeli conflict and who owns what land in that part of the world, but what I do know is that ALL the Jews I have ever known have been harsh, cold, calculating, unfriendly people, who seem to care for little else but money. They treat their staff, as well as customers, in shops and businesses in a callous, suspicious manner. A cousin of mine once worked in a Jewish-owned shop in Bridgetown, and before leaving work every evening her handbag had to be searched, and when she went to the loo, the time she spent in there was recorded! I am not suggesting that I hate Jews, because I most certainly don’t. They don’t have an easy life in this world and what happened to them in the Holocaust was diabolical. I get a bit cheesed off with Pro-Israel because he is persistent and dogmatic, and he can’t seem to realise that no one is paying him any mind! Bit like the Muslims when they start to rant and rave about what “peaceful” people they are! And by the way, Bimbro, could you cut down on some of those exclamations marks please?! Ciao for now.
Onlookers
I provides a capital example of the problem we have to face as a region, if we are to think for ourselves and find out way in the world, instead of simply being manipulated by clever rhetorical artists. I therefore take time to address several points in his post of June 25, 1:53 am. (In so doing I note how to date there has been no serious addressing of the actual issue in the main, the JFK plot case and its implications for our region.]
On points, in parts:
1] Re I: moderate Islam, which is represented by the great majority of the Muslim world, will overrule the small minority of extreme Islamists and continue to live in peace with other religions
We do hope that in the end the moderates will overcome the violent radicals, but must first face realities. For instance, on the generally accepted Saudi Prince’s estimate, the radicals are ~ 10% of Muslims, or about 100 – 150 millions; this is a minority, but ist is by no means a “small” one. It, for telling instance, vastly exceeds the total of actual Nazis and Communists who caused so much harm in the last Century.
Unfortunately as well, in recent years, they have been the geo-strategically important bloc of Islam. We must note that the number includes the Iranian Regime [initiators of the latest global surge of Islamist violence], now at the nuclear and ballistic missile threshold. Hezbollah, which has a base in Venezuela (and not just Lebanon), is the Iranian regime’s foreign legion. It includes Hamas and several other key players in the Arab-Israeli dispute. It of course includes bin Laden, who attempted a decaptiation strike against the USA in 2001, precipitating WW 4 — what is the difference between a “global” war and a “world” war? — into the current hot, about to go nuke, phase.
Worse yet, there are troubling foundational teachings such as are in Q 9:5 and 29, in the Hadiths [authoritative examples of Mohammed] and in the founding history and framework of Islamic law, to which the radicals appeal, and if they look successful, that could very rapidly “convert” many more moderate Muslims into radicals. (That is the concern underscored in the Bush-Blair diplomatic line on how the radicals have tried to “hijack” Islam . . .)
In short, the issue is very much in doubt, and is most likely only going to be settled by firm, sustained, unyielding resistance to violent expressions of Islam. The want of firmness and sustained resistance in the West in general and our region in particular is in this regard a terrible portent for the future.
2] you have allowed that fear to colour your objectivity towards the Israel/Palestinian situation. That problem is not one of Islam vs the rest of us, where we must side with the rest at all costs
First, I have laid out the relevant history in summary [and no-one has been able to seriously dispute the facts so summarised], and have in the above laid out many material but often overlooked facts. To claim that I have lost “objectivity” on the Arab Israeli dispute, in absence of SHOWING that the facts are wrong and/or that the inferences/explanations I have made are incorrect, is to resort to the rhetoric of closed minded dismissal of what is not convenient. Sorry, the burden of proof is on “I” at this point.
Nor am I simply siding with whoever opposes Islam. Islam, the religion, rests on a worldview, which I for good reason [cf my always linked] disagree with. That underlying point has little or nothing to do with the issues of IslamISM in general or the rights or wrongs of the Arab-Israeli issue in particular; for instance, I have a similar worldview level difference with evolutionary materialists, and with Marxist-Leninists, aka Communists. That does not prevent me from seeing that on some key points adherents of such views have made accurate observations and analyses, which I am perfectly willing to accept and apply, including in my professional scientific life.
On IslamISM, my problem is the resort to violence in support of a religiously motivated ideology of global conquest and subjugation.
On the Arab-Israeli dispute, my observation is that of the two parties, one has been willing to accept that BOTH sides have legitimate claims, and has been historically and currently willing to compromise and cooperate, starting with the 1919 agreement, and coming up tot the extensions of the Oslo process we see today. The other party has not, and has set out since the 1920’s on violence [including to suppress more moderate Arabs], and has at least twice set out on wars of declared intent to annihilate, i.e commit genocide. [I find it astonishing that otherwise well-intentioned people cannot see the implications of such declarations and history . . .]
So, for very legitimate reasons [onlookers can scroll up and follow links to see why I say that], I have seen that the Israelis have the better of the argument. The Arab people as a whole would be better served by leadership that returned tot he spirit of the 1919 agreement, and made a fresh start for the new Century.
However, current events and direct statements by not only the Hamas leaders but also those from Arafat’s circle, give me but little confidence that this will happen. I have a faint hope, but I must look soberly at the implications of the past 80+ years of history.
Therefore I’s attempt to dismiss me as biased and unobjective without actually SHOWING it, again fails.
. . .
What’s the matter, POB, don’t you like exclamation marks!!!
However, I agree with virtually, absolutely everything you said in your last post. I was fortunate to have one or two decent employers of them, in my early career, but, in recent years I’ve found them to be precisely, as you described, above. As racist or worse as most people – you would n’t think that they’d experienced the holocaust. I find muslims equally, objectionable and often think that they seem to deserve each other. Their arrogance is n’t assisted by being seem to be afforded privilege status in most societies. I believe that in the UK, both they and Sikhs are ‘protected’ under some or other law. Can you imagine the Jews needing protection when they occupy virtually, every position in every country of any real, note.
Anyway, I don’t plan to say too, much because, no doubt, I’ll get some idiot saying, ‘I too dis and I too dat’! Caan bother wid dum!
One point where I disagree with you is when you said, “They don’t have an easy life in this world”.
Well, POB, if the Jews don’t have an easy life then I don’t know who does!
Continuing . . .
[Part 1 awaits moderation . . .]
3] Re I: Moderate Palestinians from the days of Arafat representing Fatah have ceased to call for the destruction of Israel and have accepted a two state solution. Israel’s refusal to accede to this course of action on terms which could reasonable be accepted by the Palestinians has only served to strengthen the radical movement
Let’s roll the tape. First, in 2000, as intermediary Dennis Ross showed [do your own lookup — WP does not like links], Arafat had on the table just about the best compromise offer that could reasonably be given, 100% of Gaza, ~ 97% of WB [as a contiguous entity, propaganda otherwise notwithstanding] with compensating land from the Israeli side of the 1949 ceasefire lines, a highway across Israel to connect the two, and a major fund to underwrite national development. He walked away and resorted to terrorism, murder of innocents, and war on a flimsy pretext. That is not “moderate.”
Indeed, on each occasion that such a compromise offer along the lines or spirit of the UN 1947 partition has been on the table, the Arabs have walked away and gone back to war. That happened in the 1920s, in 1936, 1947, 1949 [Israel offered to make peace after the war!], 1967, 1986 [Israel and Jordan were on the verge of a deal to jointly administer the WB etc when the first Intifada broke out] and on to 1993 – 2000 to today. In short it is plain on 90 years of history, that to the Arabs involved, offers to settle the two legitimate claims to the land by any compromise formula are unacceptable, save as an intermediate step to conquest.
Further to this, onlookers should again observe the statement I cited yesterday that comes from Arafat’s advisers as a citation from him, notoriously, “in Arabic, not English” — this is not just a matter of Hamas:
>>“By Allah, I will drive them crazy. By Allah, I will turn this agreement into a curse for them. By Allah, perhaps not in my lifetime, but you will live to see the Israelis flee from Palestine. Have a little patience.” — Al-Quds Al-Arabi Editor-in-Chief Abd Al-Bari Atwan on Arafat’s comments to him regarding the Oslo agreement ANB TV, February 16, 2006>>
This “phased destruction of Israel and driving the Jews into the sea strategy” fits in precisely with the similar statements from the 1970’s, e.g.:
>>In a March 31, 1977 interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaper Dagblad de Verdieping Trouw, PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhse’in said: “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national
interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa,
Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”>> [Meyer-Levy, pp. 37 -8]
To date, I can find no convincing reason to conclude that the various Palestinian factions have ever surrendered this underlying strategy; save, perhaps that I doubt that today they would want to unite with Jordan.
. . .
Kairosfocus, my friend, you can stop, now! 🙂
I swear to God, Bimbro, I don’t know why you bother with Kairofocus, who seems to suffer from verbal diarrhoea! As regards the Jews not having “an easy life”, I don’t mean in terms of wealth. Oh gosh, who ever heard of a Jew without money! But, Bimbro, does money really make you happy inwardly? I know it wouldn’t necessarily make me happy. What I mean by not having an easy life is the prejudice and hatred shown towards them from time immemorial, no matter where they are located in the world. The anti-semitism. In Britain it only eased up slightly when the British found new targets – the Blacks! So just as it isn’t easy for Blacks, so it isn’t easy for the Jews.
Concluding . . .
Second part went through straight, here is the final part . . .
4] In the spirit of reasonableness, I appeal to you to soften your heart and recognize the pain and suffering of the Palestinians as a people and not as Muslims.
This is a subtle attack to the man, by implying that I am being unreasonable and hard hearted about the sufferings of the Palestinian people, as well as hostile to Muslims in general, despite many strong statements and arguments on this last point across more than one thread at BFP, not least in my exchange with Bimbro above.
Such sustained misleading and atmosphere-poisoning accusation in the teeth of easily available evidence, therefore requires strong rebuttal, as it shamelessly attacks the man and poisons the atmosphere while ducking the issue of what the facts say for themselves:
–> First, a significant proportion of the Palestinian Arabs are Christians, not Muslims. [NB: They are being driven out of the land by Muslim and terrorist extremists, a sad fact that can be easily enough followed up by interested onlookers.]
–> Next, as Meyer-Levy amply documents, and many others as well, the refugee problem faced by the Palestinians is largely a matter of the making of their leadership over the years and of the Arab leadership as well; and that precisely in order to tug at heart-strings to make us sympathetic to the underlying agenda that created the refugee problem in the first instance. I indeed sympathise with the refugees, who by and large are victims of their own leaders and their intransigent agendas, agendas that repeatedly led to declared wars of annihilation and campaigns of terroristic murder. The Palestinian Arab people deserve a better leadership, and they deserve to start form the premise of the truth, with love and “true respect for ALL,” Jews included. [That quote from my national anthem shows my Jamaican roots . . .]
–> We should therefore contrast how the Jewish ME refugee problem was even bigger, and was amply resolved by resettlement in the rights-respecting democratic state of Israel – an approach that can be traced in the relevant UN resolutions at the time, and which the ARABS have consistently resisted, starting at the end of the 1948 – 9 war of declared attempt to annihilate the Jews. As just noted, at each point where there was an opportunity to resolve the problem it is ARAB intransigence that has been the stumbling-block. So, in effect it is Arab leadership who have for 50+ years held their own brother and sister Arabs hostage in pursuit of a cause that is highly questionable at best, and in the teeth of multiple opportunities to resolve the conflict through the only reasonable solution: compromise.
–> As to the “occupation” of the disputed territories, again, the same gap between perception and reality of where intransigence lies keeps cropping up. That also holds for even harsh measures such as imposition of steps of martial law, in a context where prevention of a campaign of murder of innocents has been at issue. Inconvenience to farmers etc is regrettable but it does not at all compare to prevention of a campaign of murder by bombing ordinary people going about the ordinary business of life, e.g attending a Passover Seder in a Hotel in the suburbs of Tel Aviv, or going to a Pizza restaurant.
So, I conclude: we need to move beyond war and towards a mutually respectful settlement. I find that ever since 1919 the Jewish parties have been willing to do so, but that the critical fraction of Arab and especially Palestinian Arab leadership, starting with the Mufti of Jerusalem, has not – whether rationalised on Arab nationalism or Palestinian Arab nationalism or Islamism makes no practical difference. Until that intransigent, hostile and disrespectful attitude changes, there can be no real hope of a ME settlement apart from an armed cold peace.
Sad, but that is what the history warrants. So if we truly sympathise with the plight of ordinary palestinian arab people, we would best serve the cause of peace by insisting on their facing the full truth and doing something about that instransigence, so they can settle the family quarrel with their Jewish cousins, and return to the path of blessing that Feisal Hussein wisely laid out before them in 1919.
Apart from such heart-change and national reformation, no lasting solution can be had.
GEM of TKI
Witness ‘attacks on the man’ as “perisitent” and “dogmatic”.
And the ‘red herring’ of saying, “Jews are racists”.
And a call to ignore the history presented.
Back on topic:
Oslo was an exciting time for both Palestinians and Israelis. The treaty was signed creating a Palestinian Authority, which would form the government of a future Palestinian State. Mood was high and there was talk about the future in Israel, Palestine; and throughout the world. US President Bill Clinton had Rabin and Arafat- and Peres (the Oslo draft author, an Israeli)- on the lawn of the White House shaking hands after signing.
Oslo……….”negotiations would cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest”……….
Committing to paper a signed a greement to negotiate these things, final territory, refugees, security, borders, neighbourly relations means one thing:
Compromise.
Oslo seems a distant treaty in view of further developments, but it remains up till now one of the most recent highlights in the peace movement.
Man we need you boys at the UN. I done wid dis cus it gine nowhere fass.
Lemma ask wunna dis I thought we wus all trying to solve the many problems of hate, prejudice, racism etc in the world being perpetrated against the human race?
This one subject shows me that many on this blog are not on board but are part of the problem.
POB:
Please, deal with this: Give this bloke his due (Jew?!) – yes, pun intended, he doesn’t give up. Harsh, dictatorial, unrelenting – exactly how they all treat staff and customers in businesses.
This is unacceptable in any civil forum. Some Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists etc have done pretty horrible things and show an attitude that is unfriendly. Others are warm, gentle, loving and respectful. That’s how people are!
In the case of Jews I have known and loved and have the joy, blessing and privilege to count as my friends, I have found just the opposite to your inferences: they have been concerned, compassionate, giving, fair-minded. That holds for secular Jews, observant Jews and Messianic Jews.
Similarly, I have known and had the joy to count as friends and neighbours Muslims who are decent, upright, friendly and good-intentioned.
The same holds for Christians [of many different demominations] and Atheists, even Communists I have known.
I can say the same about some of my friends who have either struggled with homosexual temptation or were openly homosexual. [Sadly, in one major case that “were” has a sting in the tail, he committed suicide. In another case, one of the truly most impressive lecturers on UWI’s Mona Campus, was murdered by his “lovers.”]
So, please, let us get away from stereotyping and writing off people as groups. We are all fallen, fallible, finite, and sometimes hurt and angry. So, let us forgive one another and learn to respect, be friendly to and get along with one another.
GEM of TKI
PS to POB: There is a big difference between mere verbiage and responsible addressing of issues on the merits in a context of controversy. If you object to my conclusions, address my adduced or linked facts and reasoning. Dismissal with a clever, barbed quip does not change the state of a case on the merits.
PI:
Thanks for bringing the account up to date with the Oslo process. Sadly, the point still stands as of my conclusion at 10:49 on BFP’s clock: >>if we truly sympathise with the plight of ordinary palestinian arab people, we would best serve the cause of peace by insisting on their facing the full truth and doing something about that instransigence, so they can settle the family quarrel with their Jewish cousins, and return to the path of blessing that Feisal Hussein wisely laid out before them in 1919.>>
Okay for now at least
GEM of TKI
Pride of Barbados
June 26th, 2007 at 10:43 am
I swear to God, Bimbro, I don’t know why you bother with Kairofocus, who seems to suffer from verbal diarrhoea! As regards the Jews not having “an easy life”, I don’t mean in terms of wealth. Oh gosh, who ever heard of a Jew without money! But, Bimbro, does money really make you happy inwardly? I know it wouldn’t necessarily make me happy. What I mean by not having an easy life is the prejudice and hatred shown towards them from time immemorial, no matter where they are located in the world. The anti-semitism. In Britain it only eased up slightly when the British found new targets – the Blacks! So just as it isn’t easy for Blacks, so it isn’t easy for the Jews.
********************************
Interesting and amusing reply, POB. They’re ok now, however, at least in the UK. There’s hardly an important position in society, professions, politics, business etc. which they don’t fill, consequently, I’ve no sympathy and very little, regard for them! I’m afraid, I’m looking out for my own! i.e. small-island west indians, like myself!!!!
‘Does money make you happy’! I feel sure it would make me very, happy ‘P’ and you, too! When I get a lot of it, I’ll share it with you!!!!
As for the enmity shown towards them since time, immemorial – when you consider how they are, is it any wonder, really! Caan worry myself, man!
Kairosfocus, just tell me what I have to give you to make you stop and we’ll see! 🙂
Pro-Israel suffering from de same ting, too?!!!!
Hi guys, (I in speakin to nuh lesbins), I know it’s off-topic but has, anybody seen Rhianna’s video for her latest song, Unbrella, or heard the song?
I’ve glimpsed the video once or twice recently, an I could n’t really onastan what she was going-on about! I can’t believe the song is really about an innocent umbrella. Is there more to it? I get the impression it may have to do with sex especially in view of the rain scene etc! Does anybody know what it’s about? Is there an underlying message to do with sex. If there is n’t I’ve got to wonder why she’d want to write a song about an umbrella. If there is, I suspect it may have been too, clever and the message might be lost to a lot of people! Either, I’m just too, innocent or my ear is n’t as attuned to the Bim accent, anymore, as it used to be!
Not a bad, little tune though, I suppose!
I have heard the above all my life. Witness, reading Bajans, the racism some of us possess within. Truly evident when it isn’t part of you. Repulsive and ugly, it is ours. Let’s work on it and try to withold it from the yutes for the sake of the common good.
On topic:
Oslo was to be the harbinger of change. Armies would become police forces. Walls would become avenues to bilateral trade. And lots of pie in the sky practicalities.
It did not work that way.
The basics: Peres, the architect of Oslo, recognised that creating a peace involved a change in education, in young people, and worked towards it. Many even recently may have read of sports events where Palestinian and Israeli ‘mixed’ soccer teams play the likes of Barcelona and Real Madrid in soccer. This is good, although a token. Many young people see these things, and internalise its lesson.
The changes in education have never yet materialised. Palestinian textbooks continued to be printed with no Israel territory at all on the geography maps. And religious instruction the same for Israel or its lack (please do pardon my saying this); and Israel also had resistance to the mode of its own new teaching methods for the new 2 state entities in many quarters. This was debated publicly, angrily and vociferously in Israel.
Israeli Independance Day (celebration of the day of israel’s re-formation) is mourned as the ‘Naqbah’ (catastrophe) by the Palestinians.
The PLO/PA made a drastic miscalculation when it refused to educate the youth in the 90s, and these errors persist to this very day. It will be a hard job, and many years, before a calm can be ingrained into the younger population. If this had changed in 93, then all young people below age 14 would have had the benefit of a ‘peace’ education. We have lost these years, and gained a generation of suicide bombers and martyrs.
In order to create peace the youth must be prepared and ‘indoctrinated’ (in the books) to accept it. Worldwide. This is not happening. Quite the opposite.
In short, instead of Oslo and the anticipated peace there was another intifada/revolt/rejection, and we have not revisited the proximity of peace that existed at that time.
I is a great shame from every perspective, to say the least.
—-add some years here—- (maybe to be revisited)
First person present tense:
Sometimes I think that ‘negotiation’ in Asia and the Middle East is the actual act of warfare. It is such a brutal world and so foreign.
Sometimes I find the needless deaths and endless retaliations to be like a conversation between parties, rather than the actual acts of bloodletting.
We observe (from our so far peaceful island) the senseless letting of blood like an expected triviality to the powers involved, meaningless in the greater scheme. But to me a terrible, painful dialogue is going on.
I don’t like it either. Call me ‘dogmatic’ or relentless if you may, but never heartless. We are people together and deserve hope.
And if I (Pro-Israel) feel these things, and I can identify ‘my cousins’ (as per the words of Kairos), then I have ability to embrace cousins in peace, and to allow my cousins to reciprocate.
Which is what I have said continually all the way through the thread.
But it cannot be weakness, this act of waiting, and watching. It is a hope, maybe to some a prayer.
I believe that the majority of readers do feel the same way: Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Agnostics and Atheists, and others. And if you do feel this and are reading it, do not be afraid to say it.
The fact that no one has yet come forward to participate without anger is of no consequence as I believe, one day, things are going to get better.
Addendum to this post: Few days ago ‘Chemical’ Ali, Saddam’s cousin, got the death sentence, as we recently were reminded of the 200,000 Kurds that were killed.
That’s almost the population of Barbados.
Bimbro:
Your remarks in your last are sadly disappointing. You can do a lot better than that, mon!
I think you will see that I have responsibly responded on points, raising required facts, implications and issues [as further constrained by WP’s dislike for links]. A response that attacks the man on alleged objectionable style is irrelevant and dismissive, rather than soberly facing serious facts and issues.
Onlookers, observe carefully what has happened in the course of this thread, and consider what is says about the capacity and degree of seriousness and responsibility of our region’s educated elites:
1] The thread began with a post on the issue of the JFK bombing plot, with a sub-text on the issue of the tendency to make improper immoral equivalency comparisons with Evangelical Christians, Catholics and Jews.
2] Very soon, it was hijacked through hostility to the US, waves of dismissal arguments that refused to look at the issue on the merits and its implications, and red herrings on especially the ME; serving to drag attention away from what was plainly “inconvenient” to certain agendas and attitudes in our region.
3] When I intervened, I pointed out the fact that Pres Jagdeo of Guyana, on seeing the tapes etc, recognised there was a case to answer to — silence to date on the challenge to seriously address this. [Not to mention the wider pattern of similar incidents of a small but worrying fraction of Muslims from our region being involved in violence in the name of Islam, since about 1990 with the Abu Bakr coup attempt in Trinidad.]
4] Since a very distorted but commonly seen view of the ME situation came up regularly enough, I decided to put up some correctives. Not least, because this situation has in it many of the same ingredients in our own and is revealing on the way we too often think, argue and form our conclusions in very unsound ways.
5] Again, little or no response on the merits, but plenty of further red herrings, strawman arguments, and attacks to the man. (Observe how the “Fact no 1” that I have brought up has been studiously ignored, i.e. the Weizmann-Feisal agreement of 1919; and yet, it puts the entire situation in the ME in an utterly different light from what one would get in the typical media sources, especially the now admittedly and notoriously biased BBC.)
6] I’s latest post is an artful classic of the attack to the man and misrepresentation of the situation — I suspect I is a journalist or the like, from some of the rhetorical tricks used in the post; so, I took time to address it point by point. You can see for yourselves that there has been no response on the merits, just the sad and ever so telling resort to a barbed dismissive quip, now taken up by B.
7] Remember, too, a very sad point: all of these arguments to stir up rage against the Israelis are directly or indirectly supporting a side in an 80-years so far war that, sadly, has openly advocated GENOCIDE, and still contemplates and approves mass terroristic slaughter of Jews in Israel . . . in a context where they have consistently walked away from every chance at a reasonable compromise, from the 1920’s on.
So, do you see why we need to take time out to look hard in the mirror as the educated elites of the Caribbean? To fix our critical thinking education system? And, to fix our moral education system while we are at it?
Then, maybe what we have learned though our history of by and large overcoming hardship and oppression can be shared with the rest of the world, towards mutual repentance, reconciliation and reformation, globally.
So, with sadness, but not without hope,
GEM of TKI
Kairosfocus,
I thank you for giving me a clearer understanding why Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews and their sympathizers.
Re I: thank you for giving me a clearer understanding why Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews and their sympathizers.
Comment: And, precisely what is that “understanding” — apart from ill-informed prejudice, bigotry and hate on his part which stereotyped Jews and turned them into scapegoats for Germany’s problems, leading to his attempted, demonically inspired “final solution” — genocide?
GEM of TKI
Further note:
If “I” is here trying to dismiss the points I made above in response to this June 25, 11:53 am post, he knows how to show me wrong if he can — address the facts and issues on the merits.
Absent a substantial and sound refutation on the merits, my logic and facts leading to my conclusion of June 26, 10:49 am, still stand: if we truly sympathise with the plight of ordinary palestinian arab people, we would best serve the cause of peace by insisting on their facing the full truth and doing something about that instransigence, so they can settle the family quarrel with their Jewish cousins, and return to the path of blessing that Feisal Hussein wisely laid out before them in 1919.
GEM of TKI
kairosfocus
June 27th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Bimbro:
Your remarks in your last are sadly disappointing. You can do a lot better than that, mon!
I think you will see that I have responsibly responded on points, raising required facts, implications and issues [as further constrained by WP’s dislike for links]. A response that attacks the man on alleged objectionable style is irrelevant and dismissive, rather than soberly facing serious facts and issues
***********************
Kairosfocus, I’m sorry if I disappointed you but, I think it is you who don’t understand! You see, I AGREE with your point of view, on this subject. I actually, concur with everything you say which is why you don’t need to persuade me, any further!
I in got nuh time for what Pro-Israel says, which is why I’m even prepared to pay you, to stop now! How about $100BDS. Would that be enough?
quote:
“I thank you for giving me a clearer understanding why Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews and their sympathizers”.
Kill the Jews is the best case solution if the terms you state are not met?
B,
Please, look at your comment of June 26th, 2007 at 6:27 pm, the one that begins with a dismissive – as opposed to cogent, on the merits — cite from POB, then proceeds to comment: “Interesting and amusing reply, POB. . . .”
Maybe you have not read the POB response in its context before saying that? (THAT is why I was unhappy with you for apparently jumping on a bandwagon. And BTW, observe “I” as he goes on, to see why it is IMPORTANT to still address this. Sad, very sad, but vitally important.)
++++++
PI:
Sad to see “I” descend to that level isn’t it. But at least, we see the evident underlying attitudes laid out plainly.
++++++
Onlookers:
A FYI — though both very sad and painful to put up as this is a wounding point, but we must now face it [apologies for the pain, but let us find healing together through facing the truth] — will be useful on this.
It is not commonly known that the Mufti of Jerusalem, was implicated in the Nazi holocaust. E.g. From JVL, we may read:
_________
>>In 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini fled to Germany and met with Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ anti-Jewish program to the Arab world.
The Mufti sent Hitler 15 drafts of declarations he wanted Germany and Italy to make concerning the Middle East. One called on the two countries to declare the illegality of the Jewish home in Palestine. Furthermore, “they accord to Palestine and to other Arab countries the right to solve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries, in accordance with the interest of the Arabs and, by the same method, that the question is now being settled in the Axis countries.”1 [Ref: 1“Grand Mufti Plotted To Do Away With All Jews In Mideast,” Response, (Fall 1991), pp. 2-3.] . . . .
In 1945, Yugoslavia sought to indict the Mufti as a war criminal for his role in recruiting 20,000 Muslim volunteers for the SS [NB: from other sources, mostly: Moslem Bosnian, Kossovar-Albanians and former Soviet Union Moslems, in the unit: the Croat Waffen-SS Volunteer Mountain Division, later called 13. Waffen-SS Division ‘Hanjar’ (dagger)], who participated in the killing of Jews in Croatia and Hungary [NB: the numbers I have seen on this last go up to 400,000]. He escaped from French detention in 1946, however, and continued his fight against the Jews from Cairo and later Beirut. He died in 1974.>> [Link to JVL page follows . . . ]
___________
The connexions to the onward sad history of the wars in the ME are all too painfully, sadly, evident. Of course, it is 99.99999 % certain “I” has no prior knowledge of this — it is one of the deeply hidden facts of the sad recent past.
So, I cite this, not to point fingers or gloat — it is ever so painful (and apart from I’s remark above I would never have raised it; it is THAT painful) — but so we can weep together over the sad truth, then find a way to turn away from the path of such hostility and its consequences, to reconciliation and working together in the spirit of the 1919 Weizmann-Feisal agreement. Yes, Christians, Jews and Muslims, and others of other faiths or even those who consider themselves of no faith [though in fact one cannot reason without holding core faith commitments . . . cf. my linked above on straight thinking for details . . .].
For, on the evident trends, the ME is now of vital, potentially massively destructive, interest to the whole world.
And, through facing the sad truth together and mutually repenting of our sins, which are legion all around, we can find a way of healing for our pains, and then a way forward, one that on the ME situation will need to recognise the legitimate claims of BOTH parties relative to Eretz Israel and then move to a compromise in the light of the opportunities opened up so many times since 1919.
GEM of TKI
PS: The JVL page is: here. A general summary on the Hanjar Division is here, but it does not give details on the war crimes alleged in the JVL excerpt above. (There are some interesting pictures.)
Kairosfocus, I’m sorry if I disappointed you but, I think it is you who don’t understand! You see, I AGREE with your point of view, on this subject. I actually, concur with everything you say which is why you don’t need to persuade me, any further!
I in got nuh time for what Pro-Israel says, which is why I’m even prepared to pay you, to stop now! How about $100BDS. Would that be enough?
*************************************
Hi Kairosfocus, thanks for your reply, of this morning. You’ve got me crying now! There’s no way that I’d be dismissive, certainly of anything which YOU, said. I’ve much, too much, regard for your commentary than to would do that! 🙂
However, you don’t appear to have responded to my offer of $!!!!
I can’t go much above 100!
Kind regards!
Inkwell: “I thank you for giving me a clearer understanding why Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews and their sympathizers.”
****
Throughout history of millenia the extermination of the Jews has occurred. There have been those who have not acted against these things.
The writer above refers to ‘Jews’ rather than Israelis, and please note this as very clearly indicative.
*****
Now there is the State of Israel.
Israel chooses to negiotiate towards peace, even with people like this.
At this time in our negotiation I am going to reject the dictated terms of Inkwell, but hope that we can talk again soon, with the view towards creating peace for the common good.
I don’t think that the sides are far apart, except for the stated happiness of extermination.
B
Thanks for the kind words.
Unfortunately, there is a major and often misunderstood issue on the table and I cannot allow misinformation to triumph by shutting down the other side of the story.
I, however, wish I did not have to note publicly on what the Mufti seems to have done. (It is generally best to quietly learn lessons on such and move on.)
But, given developments over the past couple of days, I had but little choice.
GEM of TKI
Well at least I tried, Kairosfocus! Good luck and bye!
Hi Pro-Israel:
Recently, I happened to talk with a young professional person — a fine one at that.
S/he asked about the restoration of some degraded lands here in Montserrat, and I suggested the no 1 dry lands farming and land restoration experts in the world: Israeli Agriculturalists. (For references, simply cf. Israel circa 1880 or1900 vs. today. Then note who were pioneers on technologies such as drip irrigation, etc.)
The immediate response was sadly illustrative of what is going on: because the Israelis mistreat the Palestinians, s/he would not even consider the possibility of such co-operation.
–> Now, immediately, we see that perceived group-guilt has been applied across the board, from politicians to academic and technical agronomists — and that to a country which is world-famous for its extreme diversity of political views and opinions. [Riddle me this: if you put three Israelis together to talk politics, what do you get? Ans: four new political parties! Three at once, then a new party after some have thought the matter over again . . .]
–> We also see what some logicians call “elephant-hurling”: a highly controversial and complex issue is prematurely foreclosed by stating a simplistic, one-sided summary and dismissal as if that is the well-warranted, amply evidenced consensus.
–> Thirdly, there is a major irrelevancy: technical agricultural experts are as a rule not involved in dominating politics and making policy.
–> Underlying that, is the principle that one shuns those perceived as evil. [H’mm: in a world of finite, fallible, fallen, too often angry sinners, doesn’t that just lead to deadlock, one-sidedness, misunderstanding and polarisation? Surely one should not make an unequal yoking with the committed-to-evil, but that holds on a case by case basis, does it not? If we are to avoid all evil-tainted persons does that not mean that we would have to go out of the world? And then, would we not find that there is a little monster lurking in our own hearts? Should we not then first look to the plank in our own eyes, then see how we can help our fellow fallen sinners based on the lessons so learned? And, what about the duty of civil officials — finite, fallen and fallible, though they be, thus plainly imperfect — to protect the community and its members from violent evil-doers?]
Unfortunately, this resort to shunning and dismissal is obviously a typical view among today’s intelligentsia in our region, as this thread also amply demonstrates. In such an intensely closed-minded, politically correct conformist climate, it is very hard to get a fair hearing, never mind dialogue towards the true balance on the merits of fact, logic and ethics.
However, there are some fair minded people out there, who will look at the sort of things that have happened above, and will begin to see that the issue is not a cut and dry and simple as they have been told.
An excellent place to start with, is the Weizmann-Feisal agreement of 1919 — if you do not know about and understand it in its context, you simply do not understand the underlying facts and dynamics of the ME situation, so you cannot comment or conclude with any reasonable competence. And that on a highly propagandised, hot-button issue; in short, as a region, we need to go back to critical thinking 101 on this.
Going back to the original focus of the thread, the same obviously holds. We can see the immediate dismissal of the charges, based largely on suspicion of the West in general and the USA in particular. Then, when the issue of President Jagdeo’s comments on BBC to t e effect that having seen the evidence there is plainly a case to be answered to, 6the only onward response was to try to say that the informant was a crook. When it was pointed out that this is quite similar to routine Mafia investigations of crooks sitting round a table, one of them being wired and feeding taped evidence to the FBI, this met with silence.
Similar silence followed on widening the pattern to note that there is evidently a dangerously violent — though thankfully quite small — minority among especially Afro-Caribbean Islamic converts, ever since the Abu Bakr affair of 1990. (But also el Shukrijumah shows that there are also some ethnically Islamic Muslims in the region who have evidently, unfortunately, turned terrorist.)
Again, it is plain that we need to go back to a serious look at critical thinking 101, with the evolution of the modern ME as an important case in point.
GEM of TKI
Kairosfocus:
One must acknowledge your logical rationale and try to relate. We are not totally aligned:
As an example we can look at Judea and Samaria. These are the ancient terms that these days are taken as synonymous with the West Bank.
Hebron, the tomb of the Patriarchs; Bethlehem, Jerico, and lots more, are in these areas.
These are what are termed in the present day as the ‘occupied territories’.
It is true that the 1919 agreement to divide the British Mandate to Faisal and Weisman can be looked at as the creation of the ‘real Palestine’, the Jordanian Kingdom.
This paves the way for a further debate saying that what is now described as ‘occupied territory’ is actually all Israel’s, including Judea and Samaria. And that this is along the lines of the 1919 agreement, and the OT.
There are those in Israel who say this too. There are those in Israel who disagree with it.
Kadima: (Going forward) when the parties not included in the Faisal Weisman agreement found out, attempts were made to stop it. Even before the Jews had their state (back), there was violence and resistance.
Yet Jordan was formed and there was an abatement of resistance against this country Jordan,
BUT………. not for “The Jews”.
Maybe that is why Palestinians are not granted Jordanian citizenship, due to possible civil conflict?
The British and French mandates created the picture if the Middle East as we now know it. Syria, Lebanon…..are these disputed? They did not exist until the 1920s.
The opponents to (a Jewish State of) Israel started saying that it could not be allowed. Later on it became, “To drive the Jews into the sea”. This has not stopped since that day. In the textbooks of Palestine it is taught, delivered and internalised.
No Israel on the school map. Rubbish!
I still choose a different path, maintaining hope of an end to the war.
Observe Shimon Peres, former Prime Minister of Israel, and presently the President. Architect of Oslo, confidant of Yitzhak Rabin, assasinated Prime Minister, wonderful speaker/debator, founder of Peres Foundation for Peace; he has it right as a modern Israeli.
The concept is/was “land for peace”.
Oslo is based on land for peace and security; and 242/338.
It is true that disengagement from Gaza did not bring peace to Gaza or Israel, but it created territory that (another after Jordan) Palestine could be formed from. It is a question of what the government who runs Gaza decides to do? A couple of weeks ago trucks of Israeli food were left to rot at the Israeli border, as Hamas would not let it in.
Hatred. And those who say so would be wrong to assume that his 242 non-compromise deal a la Oslo would make that go away. Hamas wants Israel gone, and have said that they will do so afterwards.
At present the Gaza control goes with Hamas, who refuse to recognise Israel, even though the government is bound to do so by previous signatures, previous elected members. Much of this has to do with religion vs politics. It appears that Gaza is headed towards theocracy, sharia, Iran-styled territory.
Trouble for Israel- probably.
Trouble for those who want peace in Gaza but with no voice- definitely. War continues, until it stops, with continued needless loss of life as dialogue.
Even knowing the absolute necessity to change Palestinian modes of education, and knowing it will not happen in the foreseable future, I personally am still not detracted from the concept of ‘land for peace’, even if it requires another disengagement.
Some people will debate saying that Oslo signified giving back territory that made war rather than peace, and since Gaza is given,that is all and that there will be no more, and that this is the end of Oslo, and the boundaries of Palestine.
I personally say there should be more, but cannot speak for all. As you say, 3 people, 4 opinions. That is an old Jewish joke. I myself have more than 4 opinions, and I’m only one person.
These are not matters upon which to jest. Kadima, the party in power, is thinking along these lines, and Peres, though much older now, thinks like me. The question is how much more can or should be given while making a secure and peaceful arrangment?
If any amount gievn can do this while Israel still exists? If land for peace won’t work, then why give any?
And that is where and why Inkwell and co. will continue try to exterminate the Jewish race, and Israel. Many of his friends don’t need an excuse.
It is sad, because along this line of action many people are getting hurt and killed, Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, others; but hopefully one day all this will change for the better.
Compromise: Can it happen that both parties give? I do not know, but I can wait and hope.
Israel will be present to give, when things change for the better.
Waiting for its partners to work in harmony. (Please) come and work, we are waiting.
So yes, we have agreements- 1919, and many more afterwards- and these agreements and promises were broken- and continue to be broken. It is my view that we are at the stage of final preparation for the Palestine(s) that will be formed.
Either that or the Rapture.
I do not believe that giving more will stop the war, as it may probably never, ever be sufficient, but maybe after that point many of the enemies of the Jews will leave Israel alone and in peace.
Hi P-I:
Actually, you have highlighted the point where I am taking a disputes settlement view not a Biblical etc one.
I figure that God will take care of “the Mountains of Israel” for himself, in his own good time.
My concern is with the what is, relative to generally accepted bases of recognised legitimate statehood — if the Jews of Israel are made into an agenda-serving “exception” that is what tells us that propaganda-stirred bigotry or even hatred is driving the situation, not facts, reason and reasonableness. The fact that the Arab states of the ME are by and large the products of the same Versailles-rooted process is itself telling on the issue of legitimacy of nation-states in the ME, for the claims of the Jews of the ME and the Kurds of the ME are at least as valid as any Arabs who wish to claim to a Jordanian, Lebanese, or Iraqi state! (This is one part of why I often say if one cannot understand the Weizmann-Feisal agreement in its context, one cannot properly address the ME situation. Inkwell, DWYT, et al should take note before shouting out propaganda-tainted assertions and opinions.)
Now, too, I observe that from OT on, we can show that the Jewish people of Israel were more than willing to share the land with non-Jewish peoples settled there or taking refuge there, e.g. just compare David’s inner circles.
So, when I see that “the Palestinians” have in part got a reasonable case to having bought land and/or lived on it for generations, I think there is a reasonable claim there. This is then compounded by the sort of agreements that we see from 1919 to 1947, in which the Jewish nation in eretz Israel [note my use of a geographical-biblical term here], agreed to a similar modern sharing of the land.
Of course the hiving off of Jordan [then Trans-Jordanian Palestine], was the first — sadly, predictably it seems, failed — “land for peace” deal.
But that does not affect the fact that there were Arabs etc living in Cis-Jordanian Palestine who have a legitimate claim to be settled in the land [never mind that we are realistically speaking of years to a few generations given the problems with the land over the centuries that led to repeated depopulations; “settled” is still valid].
Unfortunately, the Mufti-led forces murderously shut up and/or violently intimidated Arab voices of moderation, so living together in the same state — absent a degree of draconian Ottoman-style “policing” that neither the British nor the Israelis were willing to carry out — was simply not feasible. This is why there were various partition proposals, similar to what eventually happened in India. The nascent state of Israel accepted the partition at the UN in 1947; so, this is a binding agreement (of course subject to the exigencies of what followed, i.e defensive war against declared intent of genocide by conquest and massacre — all f course consistent with the Mufti’s policy, which as we saw was even put to Hitler).
Yes, there are those who wish to settle in the Mountains of Israel (Judaea and Samaria proper) as Jews, and in an ideal world, they should be free to do so. Sadly, we are not in an ideal world and the having of a recognised land of refuge and base of life is enough for reasonable practical purposes.
Of course, the hatred of Hamas etc are plain, and it is evident that even Fatah etc are on the evidence [note the silence by Inkwell etc on that point!] really looking for tactical advantage towards the long term goal of destroying Israel.
That is a sad fact, as is the driving out of reasonable Palestinian Arab voices by the force of violence.
But, within certain lines of a reasonable compromise, this can be shown up for what it is and appropriately resisted, by force if necessary — e.g. if Hamas sponsors attacks, then it is entirely proper to hit them back hard to remove the capacity to carry out the threats.
For that matter, up to the point of that now all- but- certainly- suicidal Western loss of will, no country worth its salt would tolerate the kidnapping of its soldiers and holding them hostage , much less rocketing and suicide bombing, etc. We can have no proper right to insist that Israel tolerates such. Such “Jewish exceptionalism” reeks of patent anti-Semitism.
You also cite how aid from Israel to help the ordinary decent people of Gaza was made to rot in trucks by the side of the road at the border crossings while Hamas slaughtered the more “moderate” Fatah there. How revealing.
I gather, too, people seeking refuge in Israel from their “brother” Arabs were attacked and even murdered.
These incidents plainly and publicly show the utter difference in attitude at work, and the last shows that the accusation of genocide against Israel is simply a typical turnabout propaganda lie: when the chips are down, Palestinian Arabs know who to turn to for refuge from their “brother” Arabs.
Indeed, the same happened in the civil war in Jordan in 1970 where PLO terrorists preferred to surrender to the Israelis than to their fellow Jordanian citizens. (And yes, unless that has changed recently [maybe in recognition of the emergence of a “Palestinian” national identity?], the only Arab country that freely gave its citizenship to Arabs from eretz Israel was Jordan, for obvious reasons tracing to the 1919 agreement and its aftermath.)
Will we open our eyes to see the obvious?
And, getting back to the JFK case, Is see Grand Jury indictments have been handed down. In short, juries of peers in NY have been convinced by the evidence that there is a case to answer to — not the same as that there is a case that has been proved beyond reasonable doubt; that awaits the outcome of trials and appeals as necessary. What does that imply about the dismissive attitude shown on the actual main subject of the thread, above?
Are we willing to face what may well reasonably prove to be the truth in our own backyards on this case, and is certainly so from what has happened with the Abu Bakr coup attempt of 1990 and a string of instigators to and participants in Islamist-inspired terrorism since?
What does that say about us, if we are not willing to face and act on evident but unpleasant truth?
GEM of TKI
Well, lets wait for the mod to show up . . .
It is not always a good idea to discuss religion but I would like to contribute another consideration:
Is the Israeli religious Jew commanded to maintain Eretz Israel (Old Testament Israel), or is the stability of modern day Israel, whatever that composition may be, sufficient? I do not use this logic, but it is relevant.
There are varying trends of thought in Israel on this; but the most interesting thing is that modern day Israelis decided to disengage from Gaza, even though this is not what the fundamentalism would have indicated.
The reason I say this is to illustrate a difference between mainstream Judaism and mainstream Islam in the present day.
Israel has been able to bring itself out of a fundamentalist, extremist interpretation and move towards a political solution with its neighbours.
The reverse has not been true, with Hamas in power, and Fatah (Arafat and Abbas) itself authorising the textbooks with no Israel on the map. This is an important point, because although there have been requests coninually to change this, the education of the Palestinian youth is to be a martyr rather than a peace-maker, and that peace will be achieved through victory, and only total victory.
Fatah is not therefore what we are led to believe from reading the media. They too believe that Israel will eventually be removed and are working towards it.
But what choice does Israel have, except to make the signed treaty agreement and to stick by its terms? That is the letter of a good peace partner.
With fundamentalism becoming more prevalent, it will be harder and harder to make peace.
I have been told that the proof of the pudding is in Gaza. Why give any more territory back at all, as it only brings closer a party that launches attacks, arms itself, and still vows to kill you, your family and drive you into the sea?
Who in their right mind (I do somehow feel and maintain that I personally AM in my right mind) would give any more at this time?
My reasoning is that it is better to give what is possible to give, and then allow the inevitable Palestinian ( and others) attack on what is left. We know Palestine(s), whoever runs it, will still continue to attack, but the media game is a question of Israel’s retaliation, reputation, and how you the general public of the world view it.
Are the Palestinians earmarked in their totality as martyrs to the cause of removing Israel? Who made them this, and what kind of fate is this to be from? A terrible situation that we (Israel, Palestinians and the world) must work to change. But not at the expense of a re-holocaust Jewish experience. Security.
Israel does not wish Palestinians to be earmarked, which is why Israel gives, rather than witholds. There presently can be no compromise from the PA and Hamas, so this is what will (in the end) lead to further warfare.
This is a terrible thing to be involved with.
Israel is inextricably caught and tied to this, and the master plan for Israel’s destruction is to keep it that way.
P-I:
You have aptly captured a sad, chilling reality.
In a better world, the PA would keep its Oslo commitments to change education away from incitement.
But, publishing maps which do not show Israel, as well as many other things up to and including a demonically twisted copy of Micky Mouse [now of course “murdered”/”martyred” by an Israeli . . .] are very revealing, especially when put in light of what was done when Gaza was withdrawn from: economic infrastructure was damaged or neglected, and war was launched — that is what rocketing Sderot with 1300 rockets in two years means.
(This is similar to what happened in South Lebanon after the withdrawal of the security force that created a buffer zone there in 2000. I repeat the obvious lesson — when land is repeatedly used a s a platform for war against a state, if it captures it in responding to the attacks, it is reasonable to hold such land pending a resolution, not least because there is a buffer zone that reduces the risk of effective attacks. And, repeatedly, UN-brokered “settlements” have shown themselves — ever since 1956-7 to not be worth the paper they are written on. No wonder the tactic since the 1970’s has been to create the perception of an inherently illegitimate and racist Israeli state that wants to colonise lands that belong to other peoples, so that aggression vs Israel takes on the perceived colour of excusable resistance to an imperialistic power. Lost in the wash — the too-often overlooked fact of a credible, long since actually recognised legitimate Jewish claim to nationhood in the ME, in precisely the same geographical region that it has been based in for 3500 or so years. Joined, of course, to a willingness to recognise, respect and compromise with other legitimate claims. That is part of why the Weizmann-Feisal agreement as a side-agreement to Versailles in 1919 is so important! Observe how assiduously above, the implications of what happened in 1919 when representatives of the Arab and Jewish peoples int he ME sat down together in a post-Imperialist situation [the Ottoman Empire etc having collapsed in WWI], was side-stepped. What does that tell us on attitudes?)
All these plainly show that we are looking at one side willing to compromise, another that looks at such willingness as weakness to be exploited on the way to an objective that if the world were to honestly face it, would be utterly reprehensible: genocide. [Observe again how this came put above, and how it did so — by a propagandistic turnaround accusation that tried to make Israel into the would-be “genocider.” Such a tactic is a classic technique of those who wish to blunt moral challenge to what would be indefensible, by improperly creating the perception of immoral equivalency. That too, is troubling.]
In a better world, compromise would include settlements on issues of Holy sites and rights of residence.
But in the actual world, the very fact of many land for peace type compromise deals since the 1920’s shows that precisely such compromise is unacceptable to a major cross-section of the Arab political culture. In that context, we need to soberly reflect on the problem of Islamism as a driving force in that culture, one that sees Arab-dominated Islam as destined to rule and to succeed all other systems and states, and is committed to advancing that cause by force — for 1400 years now.
So, unless there is a reformation from within Islam, there is but little hope to do other than indefinitely extended “temporary” compromise through a cold peace backed up by such clear capacity and resolution that the Islamists realise that the time is not ripe for them to advance by force. It would help, too if such a shame-honour culture were subjected to serious critical scrutiny on the moral-ethical systems and contradictions in its current practices and history, forcing a dynamic of reformation.
Unfortunately, as this thread amply but sadly documents, many in the suicidally irresolute and self-indulgent West [which includes us int he Caribbean], are utterly unwilling to look unflinchingly at the cold facts.
Not even when WE are an evident target of the Islamist threat, or are being used as cover for it. That we see traces of an irrational anti-Westernist attitude that cannot see threats or evil apart from when it wears a Western face, and — worse — indulges in what is plainly Antisemitism [not just “mere” “anti-Zionism”] is not a good sign.
But, identifying that we have a problem is the first step to addressing it, here in the Caribbean. And no reasonable person reviewing the thread above will but conclude that we have a problem.
So, let’s roll!
GEM of TKI
kairofcus
tell me honestly, do you get orgasms from writing those lengthy posts? surely that can be the only explanation for you coming here everyday and repetitively preaching the same thing to us lesser beings!
Onlookers:
Observe how E aptly illustrates the problem of refusing to address a serious matter responsibly on the merits, but instead making insinuations against the man.
In short, the rhetoric of dismissal rather than squarely facing unpleasant truths. (Of course these sort of issues are such that “you may not be interested in the war, but the war is interested in you” — and one day may blow down the front door of your dolly house.)
E:
If you are serious about the issues at work here: [1] the JFK plot issue and its implications, and [2] the incidental issues raised (incl. ME issues), kindly speak to the merits. Then we can discuss matters seriously.
Otherwise, I chalk your comment down to the sadly all too familiar rhetoric of denial and dismissal by ad hominem attack, which then imagines it has won an argument relative to the merits. (In turn that underscores the dire need for serious education in Critical Thinking 101 and in C21 Geopolitics 101 too, for our region’s intelligentsia.)
GEM of TKI
PS: As long as this thread continues to be active, I will “patrol” it; given the sort of things that have come out above — support for genocide, false accusation of genocide, slander generally, anti-Semitism, refusal to address a troubling series of links between a thankfully small minority of Caribbean Muslims and violence in the name of their religion, dating back to Abu Bakr and co. I think I owe that much to the “silent onlookers” present and future, who fear that if they were to try to speak out they would be savaged by rhetorical wolves [as I have seen so often in many a blog], but who represent the many poor people whose taxes contributed to our education and who are the most likely to suffer should violence be imposed on our region as a part of the ongoing world war.
As a Pro-Israel I will not comment further on the current trends in religion, and should there be no refutation re my posts I shall close:
Why is it that Israel absolutely must be destroyed? Why is it that it cannot remain as an equal country in the Middle East and peace be negotiated?
For Pro-Israel the answer is not “why”, only that one hopes this can be changed, and Israel will be accepted, and peace will come for all parties.
One day.
kairofocus, you are arrogant, condescending and you act as if you have a monopoly on the truth. anyone who disagrees with you is attacked with a lenghty thread of rhetoric. you obviously are pursuing an agenda which is why you try to keep this and other anti-muslim threads alive and you are an attention seeker with your “onlookers observe” etc.
i know the truth and it surely isnt what you are preaching here. you are a nobody to me and i will not spend precious time arguing with the likes of you. unlike you i don’t live in a myopic little paranoid evangelical world and i do not need to mount a campaign and come onto a blog everyday to feel good about myself.
Can’t go. How true to life.
No peace.
Neither facts; just “I hate you”.
Ecsatsy:
Observe, that you have elected to attack the man, projecting bad motives and attitudes, instead of first engaging the matter on the merits of the objective, credible facts and logic. What does that say about the approach you have taken?
If you indeed “know the truth” you can easily enough refute the claimed facts and inferences connected thereto that I have made. For, knowledge is well-warranted, credibly true belief. [But, too, one cannot play games with rules of evidence by being inconsistent on standards for claims one accepts and claims one rejects — that is selective hyperskepticism.]
I therefore invite you to address, for instance:
1] Why it is that there was an initial dismissive response above to the news item that US law enforcement forces had arrested and sought indictments and extraditions regarding a circle of people connected to a reported bombing plot targetting JFK. Also, the wider context of a small but dangerous minority of Caribbean-based, violent or inciting islamists from Abu Bakr to el Faisal etc.
2] Why Pres Jagdeo of Guyana spoke as he did on BBC, on seeing the surveillance evidence on the JFK case, and also why a Grand Jury has now handed down indictments relative tot he same evidence.
3] On the incidental ME hot-button issues that came up, first, show where I am wrong to note that on the record Nasser et al sought Israel’s destruction in 1967, declaring intent and surrounding Israel with a circle of steel, 2:1 on men, 3:1 on tanks [most of Israel’s tanks [515 out of about 800 – 900] being in essence reworked WW 2 vintage Shermans, fundamentally outdated circa 1944], 4:1 on aircraft; in particular closing the Straights of Tiran, cutting off the oil trade route to Israel from Iran.
4] Show where I am wrong to observe that Israeli and international diplomatic initiative to stop the blockade failed, presenting Israel with a causus belli that implied existential threats not only to the state but to the people. In this light, you can also show where the Israeli action of sending out all but 12 of their ~ 196 effective jets to try to knock out the Egyptian air force was anything more than the sort of high-risk “Hail Mary” strategy resorted to by those who are “dead” otherwise; a gambit that had the good luck to succeed and therefore laid a foundation for a successful, strategically defensive [but of course tactically offensive], 3-division armored stroke against the 7-division concentration in the Sinai, which by Oren’s recent report and by contemporary Israeli intelligence, had been on the verge of attacking Israel on May 27. [Then too, show that Israel set out on premeditated conquest of the W Bank in particular, and address the June 19 offer by them, the Sept 1 Khartoum three no’s statement by the Arab League, and in that light the issue of the resolutions 242 and its follow up in 338.]
5] While you are at it, kindly explain why it was that Yitzak Rabin, Chief of staff of the IDF suffered a nervous breakdown in the crisis in 1967, and why it was that the PM also broke down during a broadcast to the nation intended to calm their fears; in light of the above.
6] Then, show where the outline of history in the always linked [NB: I have adjusted the points on the 1956 crisis in recent days as noted therein], is materially incorrect, starting with the significance of the 1919 Weizmann-Feisal agreement which I reproduce in full with annotations above. That would include showing that Israel as we see it is not in essence the result of a nationalist movement, and in particular not one willing to work with others with legitimate claims to the ME region, and so compromise on nationalist claims but instead have embarked on imperialist, racist, and/or genocidal projects. [All of that is implicit or explicit in remarks above that I have objected to.]
7] While you are at it, show that the Israelis pursue a policy of “genocide” [cf OED def’n cited above] wrt the Palestinian Arabs, demonstrating along the way that the sort of pronouncements and actions of the likes of the Mufti of Jerusalem, and the Arab League circa 1947 – 67 as I have summarised are materially false or misleading.
If you can show that I am materially in error, fine — I have always sought to align my thinking with the objective reality.
If not, you have made big and person-attacking claims without properly addressing the merits and face the choice of either making amends for attacking the man, or else you will have shown yourself to have moved beyond the pale of reasonable, civil discussion. (FYI, this last is the precise context above in which, at length, I have had little recourse but to speak to “onlookers” regarding several commenters in this thread.)
GEM of TKI
PS: Apologies: ECSTASY . . . missed that one and of course Firefox’s spell check did not help there . . .
Kairofocus, good thing you corrected your spelling error, that drug is apparently very popular at the moment, so the users would want you to get it right, know what I mean?
Anonymous:
Ecstasy is a drug? [As in “jook” it in or swallow it or smoke it — all three of which utterly repel me: ugh!!!! . . . How do people do such things to themselves? Don’t we know drugs (with all due respect to medical practitioners) are poisons in small doses?]
What is really needed for many in our region is to climb out of Plato’s Cave of manipulated shadows! (Yup, that good old boy spotted the “TV culture” thingie 2,400 years ago. Y’know, the image is the message and all that. [Paul also had a thing about lying images made to look like men, birds, beasts and reptiles, about 2,000 years ago, too. All that’s changed is the technology of the images.] )
GEM of TKI
Onlookers,
A few notes, as E illustrates a pattern of thinking which is unfortunately all too commonly encountered. So, a case study for Caribbean Critical Thinking 101:
1] First, a correction: I keep forgetting. “always linked” is incorrect. (The always linked is a 101-level summary on Islam for the Cristian people of the Caribbean.) Here is the outline balancing history of modern Israel I prepared some years ago and have recently adjusted on 1956 [and to in very brief outline carry it up to date.]
2] Additionally, Ecstasy and others would do well to read seriously in the history of the Six Day War, as that will be a salutary corrective to the typical media presentations and a lot of statements by pundits and even international bodies, etc. [Here is a good start.]
3] As to the personal attack: “[a]i will not spend precious time arguing with the likes of you. unlike you [b] i don’t live in a myopic little paranoid evangelical world and [c] i do not need to mount a campaign and come onto a blog everyday to feel good about myself” . . .
–> In [a] we see the fallacy of the closed mind. E imagines he has cornered the market on the truth so he refuses dialogue.
–> [b] moves on to the notion that Evangelicals are ill-informed and unjustifiably fear persecution. Of course, E forgets: “even the paranoid can have enemies.” But more to the point, I am on this matter speaking relative to balancing and corrective facts on the ME situation as common misunderstandings came up as an incidental issue above.
–> In [c] E moves on to an improper, incompetent amateur psychoanalysis at a distance. The basic problem here? One first needs to address objective facts and logic on the merits, which E refuses to do as he of course sits in command of “the truth.”
–> Having first closed his mind, E then assumes that only psychological defects could possibly account for a difference of opinion from his version of “truth.” (Observe his earlier [d] “you are arrogant, condescending and you act as if you have a monopoly on the truth.” Methinks a glance in the mirror would help E.)
–> Finally but one, of course we can look at E’s declaration: [e] “anyone who disagrees with you is attacked with a lenghty thread of rhetoric.” Now of course such implies that I am being accused of misleading manipulation in the teeth of the weight of the facts and logic. E of course fails to address: the facts and logic, which I have already raised above. (And of course responsibly addressing issues on facts and logic is precisely the reason why a clever quick cutting remark or two will not do.)
–> And now: [f] “you try to keep this and other anti-muslim threads alive.” Herein we see E’s agenda — he wishes that certain issues not be put before the public! No wonder he refuses to engage on the merits of fact and logic!! The tactic of trying to divert a thread to more “acceptable” targets [the wicked USA, Israel, Mr Arthur etc] , is of course of very similar intent.
–> He also infers that threads or comments that address IslamISTS (as opposed to Muslims) are “anti-muslim.” We could easily take that as implying that in E’s mind, the improper, violent behaviour of the former is characteristic of the attitudes of the latter. But, a simpler explanation is that E is simply trying to tar opponents with the accusation, bigotry. To which, the response is: careful critical examination of important issues and events is a RIGHT in a free society.
–> We refuse to be intimidated from exercising that right.
–> And of course, when Caribbean Evangelicals DID explicitly address Islam in the Caribbean, this is what we had to say — I challenge E or others to find therein, objective “anti-Muslim” bigotry, as opposed to well-informed concern.
GEM of TKI
PS: There is a follow-up thread on the London-Glasgow failed attacks. I note that we would do well to see what Hassan Butt has to say on the motivations of Islamists, here — and also draw out the unstated connexions tot he founding era teachings, examples and law of Islam as a whole. Read the linked, and read between the lines, then make appropriate connexions to the JFK and other relevant cases.
Read “straight talk” at this link.
https://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2007/05/13/a-piece-of-barbados-history-dr-jerry-bulls-assassination-the-harp-gun-saddam-hussain-and-israeli-intelligence/#comment-103957
Really should have guessed who you think made all those bombs, in your eyes, straight talk.
The London, Madrid bombings; the 9/11?
Uh huh—- all Jews—- by the gospel according to Straight Talk.
It is the contextual ways, and the simultaneous timing of the way you blog the two threads, of these now inter-linked subjects.
That is how I know the truth.
Anyone reading this blog can now deduce the same thing.
Shame, a real shame.
Keep taking the tablets P-I, everything will be O.K.
Trust me I’m a doctor.
Shalom
******************************
BFP Comments
Straight Talk…
We have reviewed the conversations between you and others and are concerned that you have crossed the line from discussion to Jew bashing.
Stop it immediately. Moderate yourself.
Word to the wise.
If you were a doctor you would have breached the code of conduct by writing the above.
Shalom,
and have a great day, y’hear?
BFP Comments
Straight Talk…
We have reviewed the conversations between you and others and are concerned that you have crossed the line from discussion to Jew bashing.
Stop it immediately. Moderate yourself.
Word to the wise.
I am been most moderate BFP, and will be especially careful given your concern.
But I fail to recollect any of my comments which could possibly offend you.
Please give one example so I may temper my temper.
It’s still OK to carry on Moslem bashing is it?
BFP:
Seriously.
Have checked all my recent comments and have failed to find a single instance of anything approaching Jew-bashing.
If it is something you are holding in moderation, please check the IP address, as I have never knowingly posted, or would I ever wish to be associated with a racist comment.
********************
BFP replies
OK Straight Talk, we hear you. We’ll make sure to check the IP next time. We’ve deleted the majority of the offending comments.
The internet is a bit of a wild west situation and it is good that on a blog we are able to hold each other accountable… that also means the readers holding the writers accountable.
There is also a line between bashing and discussion that is not clearly defined – plus the fact that we have four different moderators who look after the blog each with their own set of values and standards. One of our moderators thinks that your use of “shalom” was not well intentioned and lowered the conversation and a couple of emails from readers shared the same thoughts.
BFP:
Thanks for checking that out.
Did someone maliciously comment in my name, if so are you placing their IP address on permanent moderation, to prevent any further attempts to subvert the blog?
ST:
Kindly identify at least three cases of un-addressed “Muslim bashing” — as opposed to statements of informed concern — in relevant recent threads, with the authors specified.
[Onlookers, kindly note the distinction between Muslims and IslamISTS. Also note that when BB in a recent thread went overboard, he was corrected, repeatedly. It will also help to see where Caribbean Evangelicals came out when we looked at the issues of Islam, the Gospel and the Caribbean, here. ]
GEM of TKI
. “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil,”
Mr Alan Greenspan in his memoirs, one of the very few sane leaders in America.
Reading the foreign press, makes me even more depressed with the direction world events are moving.
Oil prices are inexorably on the upward march.
Iraq is now being openly threatened by the Bush administration.
America’s allies are pulling back from unstinting support of “The War On Terrorism”.
The dollar and US employment is plummeting.
China is waving US treasury notes in a threatening way.
Putin is channelling his oil revenues towards a new arms race.
There is no signs of peace on the horizon, only new conflicts.
The USA needs to find a new statesmanlike policy, or administration, fast, or I fear the worst.
Bush is a busted flush and the world knows it, and is challenging.
Looks like the American Empire went from rise to fall without passing through civilisation.
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