Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly” – Bajan Muslim Commenter On Barbados Free Press

Women have to be protected because otherwise they will fornicate with whomever they please… Barbados Muslim Salafi Manhaj commenting on Barbados Free Press – paraphrased, see below for full quote.

In our February 9, 2007 article Should Barbados Allow Saudi Arabia To Fund Local Mosques and Islamic Schools? – we pointed out that the Saudi textbooks and other materials used by local mosques and Islamic education centers to teach Bajan children describe Christians as “pigs” and Jews as “apes”.

A reader informed us that these materials and the curriculum had not been inspected by Barbados educational authorities. As we said in our article…

Many of the most widely distributed Saudi texts and teaching materials extol lessons and information that are completely at odds with the values and attitudes of modern societies. These educational materials teach children the Saudi Wahabbi message that Christians are “pigs” and Jews are “apes” and that non-Muslim religions are “worthless”.

(snip)

Folks, its time to start asking questions about how we all want to live together in Barbados – and to remind our elected and appointed officials that they have a duty to ensure the quality and content of the education being given to all our children.

Lively Discussion

A lively discussion took place in our comments section, with some Bajan Muslims participating – and this discussion has continued right up to the present.

One of the commenters from Barbados – named Salafi Manhaj – says he is a Muslim and has been posting various comments about Islam. We know that this commenter is in Barbados because of his/her IP address. Our own Robert responded and asked Salafi Manhaj…

“Please, Salafi Manhaj, in very clear and unequivocal language – tell us that the Koran and Islam do NOT authorise violence to spread the religion or to keep Muslims from converting to other religions.

Please, Salafi Manhaj, in very clear and unequivocal language – tell us that Muslims who convert to other religions should NOT be killed.”

Salafi Manhaj Replies About Suicide Bombers and Killing…

Folks, you can read the entire text of Salafi Manhaj’s comments for yourself, and you should – because they certainly are revealing for what they say, what they don’t say – and for the exquisite use of “weasel words” when Salafi Manhaj would rather not answer a question directly.

Questions like those asked by Robert and others.

Once again, you really should read everything on the post because it sure is an eye-opener, but here are a few excerpts from Salafi Manhaj…

“SUICIDE IS NOT FROM ISLAAM RATHER IT IS A BID”AH (INNOVATION)” *

(snip)

“In Barbados you do not have to worry about muslims killing themselves or killing people unjustly.”

(snip)

“As for you O Westerners, claimants of civilization, you have constitutions and statutes that destroy upright moral character and permit all kinds of forbidden acts, the likes of fornication and homosexuality, as well as usury which destroys the economies of entire nations, and the eating of improperly slaughtered animals (dead meats) and pork, something that causes the loss of concern for women’s values, and thus a man does not feel protective of his wife, sister, or daughter, and thus she fornicates with or intimately befriends whomever she pleases. These are some of the means which lead to ruin, and they have been prohibited in all of the prophetic messages.”

… Barbados Muslim Salafi Manhaj commenting on Muslim Suicide bombing and Killing Of People Who Wish To Leave The Muslim Faith. (link here)

So according to our Bajan Muslim friend, suicide bombing is an “innovation”, Barbados Muslims won’t kill anyone “unjustly” (that’s “unjustly” according to Muslim rules, of course) and it is our Constitution that is at fault because it allows us to eat pork and also causes us to loose concern for “OUR” women that causes “OUR” wifes, sisters and daughters to “fornicate” with whomever they please.

I see.

Well.

All I can say to our Muslim friend is…

If your wife, sister or daughter would fornicate with whomever they please if you weren’t watching them… Hey… that’s too bad!

264 Comments

Filed under Barbados, Religion

264 responses to “Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly” – Bajan Muslim Commenter On Barbados Free Press

  1. Bajanboy

    Kudos to you, BFP, from picking this up so quickly. As I posted recently:

    Why don’t peace loving Muslims come out strongly against those preaching hate? I have always wondered if by their silence, Muslims in general do not tacitly support their violent brothers.

  2. Rumplestilskin

    Bajans generally show little respect for women.

    Can a woman who passes for even attractive walk walk down Broad Street without harrassment?

    Attention and appreciation for beauty is one thing, but unbridled harrassment and verbal abuse when rejected is another.

    Can a woman go on the beach for a swim without harrassment and abuse on rejection? No.

    Generally in this island neither men nor women have much respect for themselves.

    Remember the photo from Crop Over in the Nation last year which showed a man holding a young boy behind a woman gyrating?

    Is that pride? No, disgusting and debasing to the extreme. Neither the man nor the woman thought that they were teaching the boy a woman’s worth?

    Or did they care? That is the norm is it not?

    We allow our girls to be transported in minibuses by unlicensed, unqualified persons of the utmost despicable character who prey on young girls who enjoy the attention.

    We allow it to continue which makes the society an accessory.

    Now you understand from where our Muslim contributors appear to be coming.

    Obviously I do not support violence nor the ‘suppression’ of women as I see it.

    But I also do not support the debasing behaviour so prevalent in our society, which reflects how little we a (give me a break) ‘Christian’ society
    respect ourselves and our women who are so pure when born.

    Get real, he has a point in that regard!!!!!

    By the way, the ‘moral’ message that is ‘out there’ that Casinos are bad is ludicrous by how we treat our women comparatively.

    Typical bajan hypocrisy at its best!

  3. Rumplestilskin

    My comment is awaiting moderation.

  4. Rumplestilskin

    By the way, can we get the actual Aids figures to have a look and see reality?

  5. H’mm:

    Excellent post and issues raised.

    It seems, Mr Manhaj has inadvertently revealed just what Islamisation could very well imply for Barbados and the Caribbean:

    1] Overthrow of otherwise universally recognised principles of Liberty and Justice [as written on our hearts and expressed in our common core morality, cf e.g. C S Lewis, & many others] in favour of discriminatory Sharia rules deriving from the Quran and Islamic traditions.

    2] Resulting overthrow of basic commonplaces of liberty and justice for all in the Barbados or similar Constitutions — the point on pork is particularly telling, given the company it keeps in the above snippet!

    3] Then, when we see the assumptions about why “[w]omen have to be protected” we should all take serious pause indeed . . . we are plainly looking at subjugation of women, Jews, Christians and others asserted to be under the “protection” of Allah, Allah’s Law, and Allah’s Warriors. [Let us consider: is the Jizya tax on dhimmis “protection money”?]

    4] Through the principle that “you do not have to worry about muslims killing themselves or killing people unjustly” — where of course the meaning of “justly” is precisely the issue at stake — we are looking at loss of basic respect for the right to life predicated only on being a member of the HUMAN race.

    We need to think carefully about that, given the lessons of history that those who refuse to learn from it are doomed to repeat it.

    GEM of TKI

  6. Suspicious

    Keep an eye on Trinidad (a mere 250 miles away)
    and on the mosque in Kensington New Rd. (250 yards away)

  7. Salafi Manhaj

    Bismillaah Ar-Rahmaan Ar Raheem,

    I do not have much time with detail explanation but I would offer one clarification as I hate sound bites and cutting and pasting without putting words in perspective.

    MUSLIMS IN BARBADOS OBEY THE LAW OF THE LAND. THEY DO NOT TAKE THE LAW IN THEIR OWN HANDS. EVEN IF SOME INJUSTICE WAS DONE TO THEM THEN THEY CARRY THERE AFFAIRS TO THE POLICE…

    If any issue occurs they return the affairs to the officials to deal with it.

    And only if you would look at the links I sent you as you obviously didn’t, you would have read if a muslims knows of an induvidual who would cause instability in a country then they should inform the officials ie. the police or defence force.

    Proof: “Saudi” Shaykh Ubaykhaan was asked”

    If a muslims know a person in the UK is going to blow up himself can he inform the police?

    The Shaykh answer at the end “This act is evil, and it is forbidden. Therefore it is obligatory upon the one who can change an evil to change it in a way he is able and one of the ways is to inform on those criminals.” (follow the link and read the complete answer)
    http://www.al-athariyyah.com/media/pdf/terrorism/qanda_london_bombings_1.pdf

    In Barbados there is no shari’ah Rather we obey the laws of Barbados fulfilling the rights of the people with goodness and kindness.

    As it relates to the other issues we will deal with each one point by point shortly…

    God Willing

  8. A Friend

    “As it relates to the other issues we will deal with each one point by point shortly…

    God Willing”

    How about the killing of Muslims who leave the faith? I understand that is not only condoned, but is directed by the Koran.

    I want to hear Mr. Manhaj say directly without weasel words that the Koran is wrong on this point.

    Oh…. and sorry to hear that your women aren’t to be trusted.

  9. akabozik

    Manhaj wants to leave the Christians are PIGS and Jews are APES thing for later?

    Says it all.

  10. True Native

    Salafi Manhaj:

    When Muslims first started to arrive in the U.K. in huge numbers (most of whom were chased out of Uganda) they were docile and law-abiding (U.K. law). Their numbers grew by leaps and bounds and they infiltrated all the services you could think of (thanks to the generosity of the British). Admittedly these weren’t all Muslims – some were Hindus and Sikhs – and they literally overran the country. The Hindus and others remained law abiding, quietly going about their business. The Muslims gradually became more and more aggressive and I have to hold my head and bawl over what they are now doing to the U.K. One of their clerics has stated openly that they plan to dismantle the British Parliament and take over the country. “Islam will conquer”, he said and he was backed up by thousands of his Muslim followers. If we allow Muslims to continue flooding into Barbados, the same thing will happen. I hope I will be dead by then.

  11. John

    Saw the post last night and could only say WOW.

    I think the poster could have broken his post into smaller digestible points.

    It is difficult for me to wade through such a lengthy post on the muslim faith when I am pretty ignorant of that faith.

    Obviously the poster has alot to say but all I can suggest to the poster is to choose your words carefully. By all means, stick to your beliefs and represent them as fairly as you can.

  12. Yardbroom

    We will fall into a trap if we believe that by reasoned argument the views of a Muslim fundamentalist will change – they will not.

    He will refer you to various texts, that never throws light on the subject.

    Muslims cannot accept that there are intelligent people who have no desire to be ensnared in their way of life. We have a freedom of expression which they are eager to take advantage of to denounce us, but which is denied other religions in a Muslim country.

    We are told Muslim is a peaceful religion, if it is, why do the peaceful Muslims stay silent, when the fundamentalist take the podium.

    I take cognizance of people’s actions more than their words……

  13. concerned

    Yardbroom I agree.
    You will know by “the fruit”.

  14. HeadGames.

    “I want to hear Mr. Manhaj say directly … that the Koran is wrong on this point.”

    That,Sir, would be like him asking you to say that your precious Bible is wrong on this or that point.
    How dare you question his holy book?
    He may turn around and question yours!
    I may (and do) question them both!

    Can I have an admission from Christians that is is highly HIGHLY unlikely that Lot’s wife actually turned into a pillar of salt?
    Are we (in 2007) seriously supposed to believe a story like that? – and if so..WHY?

    Can we discuss the tectonic plates that run through the Palestine area, and the likely possibility that, apart from shoddy construction and a general likelihood of collapse ANYHOW,
    that a seismic event was a far more likely(and coincidental) cause for the walls of Jericho to come tumbling down ?
    (great timing,Trumpeters – great timing, dudes!)

    Can we discuss these alleged events? or are they somehow sacrosanct because Rev. What’s-His-face says so?
    Have we been inculcated since birth-almost, to believe one big setta rubbish?

    My point is that ALL these ancient ‘holy’ books are FULL of Nancy Stories,
    and yet here we are in 2007, in possession of far greater knowledge than ‘they’ were,
    hanging on their every word !!

    Believers are voluntary suckers!
    I too used to believe most of that stuff, until I finally grew up,mentally, around age 50!

    Are we really THAT stupid? seems so!
    What is WRONG with us? do we even care to correct it, or do we have too much emotion “invested” in this belief stuff?
    How about we try a little knowledge, instead of belief?

    What does it matter what Buddha said? or Jesus? or Mohammed? they foolishly thought the Sun revolved around the world,
    – until Copernicus(or someone) proved otherwise, and nearly lost his head for shaking the belief system.
    The Earth was assuredly FLAT, until someone proved otherwise.
    Australia and The Americas simply “didn’t exist”, despite lying there,in the ocean, all along!
    – and I’m supposed to believe “God’s Word”, written by human desert ramblers, two millennia ago?

    Jehovah’s Silly Witnesses believe Planet Earth is the only spot, in a zillion stars, with any intelligent life! – like Homo sapiens is intelligent?
    look at you lot, fer cryin out loud! this one clutching his Koran, you over there with your Bible, the Jew next to me with his Talmud,
    and me here with my Scientific American (July 2006 was a particularly good issue)…oh gimme a BREAK!

    Why do we continue on with this belief-system rubbish,(as a head hobby)
    when we all pretty much know we’re only fooling ourselves?
    Can’t you see that we are now arguing and fighting over assinine BELIEF-SYSTEMS?

    If we were fighting over KNOWLEDGE-systems, I might be more inclined towards tolerance,
    but it’s getting just a lil ridiculous when we start flying commercial aircraft into each other’s buildings “in the name of this” or that,
    while intoning chants, and invoking OUR God being better than Their God.
    My Prophet vs. Your prophet (he who kills the most..wins!) ??

    Look..all you squishy believers better start sorting your head-games OUT,
    or this is turning into one UNholy mess involving all nations, all silly beliefs, and even innocent irreligious bystanders like me are likely to be killed, simply becoz I refuse to “believe” someone’s imaginary fairy story about a life after this one – like that’s gonna solve anything?

    Hey, the world is running out of virgins to supply those brave belt-bombers as they run around “doing Allah’s work” !

    Time to get real, guys!
    Belief systems are now a big danger to MY health,personally,
    and to the one Planet I need to live on!

    Time to get over the head games,fellas,
    and come down to Earth and the reality of our 2007 existence that ends in YMD (your mortal death)
    – the only afterlife you get.. is that you pass your DNA into your children,
    who are your only form of ‘afterlife’, as you are your grandparents’ afterlife’
    – that’s about all you’re gonna get for your money on this sham deal you’ve been believing in for a whole lifetime,now..
    .sorry bout the disappointing news.

    I could go on and on, but “your faith is deep”
    (read: my brainwashing of a lifetime is complete, and now irreversible!)

  15. Agnostic Dyslexic

    Should I believe in “Dog”?

  16. Salafi Manhaj

    Bismillaah

    So the Barbadian public are not tricked into these cut and paste tactics I would like to post my orginal words so it would all be in perspective.

    Please see link https://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2007/02/09/should-barbados-allow-saudi-arabia-to-fund-local-mosques-and-islamic-schools/#comment-34850

  17. Red Lake Lassie

    Salafi Manhaj

    We are not being “tricked” by the cut and paste. I read every foul word you wrote and I can tell you that this woman and her daughter don’t need a man’s protection to keep us from FORNICATING WITH WHOMEVER WE PLEASE.

    I am so happy that you wrote what you wrote. I am so happy that you wrote the truth about what you and your religion preaches.

    PLEASE KEEP COMING TO BARBADOS FREE PRESS!

    I want everyone to fully understand what Islam stands for as I now understand the fear and danger of Islam. Thank you and please keep talking.

  18. Red Lake Lassie

    Another thing. I read everything you said and I went to all your links and I read it all in context.

    I understand everything about what you are saying.

    please keep talking.

    Please talk next about the PIGS and APES, which are Christians and Jews.

    Please talk about that next. Please please please and I won’t fornicate with any men for a whole week! I promise!

  19. Red Lake Lassie

    sorry, I wasn’t clear that my second comment was again addressed to Salafi Manhaj –

    Another thing. I read everything you said and I went to all your links and I read it all in context.

    I understand everything about what you are saying.

    please keep talking.

    Please talk next about the PIGS and APES, which are Christians and Jews.

    Please talk about that next. Please please please and I won’t fornicate with any men for a whole week! I promise!

  20. Pig

    I do not wish to insult Islam but here is a truth.

    I am not a pig or an ape. Nor was my father, nor was my mother. We are not the sons of pigs and apes, as the book states, and as the radicals daily preach.

    In Barbados all people are equal to others.

    In Islamic countries we infidels (non-Muslims) are ‘dhimmi’, and are legally less, we only ‘enjoy’ lesser rights, than Muslims. Subjugated and bound only to what is disdained to be given.

    Christians, homosexuals and infidels (non-Muslims) are all dhimmi. Please re-read above.

    And women are not entitled to the same legal rights as men.

    Read it in your book.

  21. HeadGames.

    Dear Agnostic Dyslexic,

    Yes, you should believe in Dog – and in God.

    If there is a “God” (and there likely is), I like to think that She/He/It/Whatever is a life form/organism more intelligent that Man.

    Luckily for She/He/It/Whatever, this is not difficult!

    Just this morning comes the news that the Government of France has taken the ‘bold’ (Earth-shattering!-oooh!!) step of releasing all their documented stuff re. UFOs,
    i.e. visitations from superior(-technologically) beings from elsewhere.

    -(Jehovah’s Witnesses, please freak out,here)-

    Such organisms, with technology waaaay beyond ours = capable of arriving here,
    are to me….”God”, in that they are waay superior in brainpower/intelligence and technology,
    the very benchmark by which we judge our own self-importance.

    We dumbasses are yet to figure out how they got here, or where they came from: we generally give them a thoroughly Cave Man response, by throwing either rocks or lead bullets at them.

    How very pleasant!
    Nice way to greet someone who might one day save yer sorry a$$ from the path we’re on,
    but then, we’re only Cave Men, and hopefully they(God’s) will have the tolerance and understanding to analyse us, accordingly.

    I haven’t yet observed them demanding subservience from me,
    nor have I yet seen them belching forth Fire & Brimstone as they attempt to subjugate me and Humanity, via Fear!
    Why don’t I have to crawl on my belly before such inter-galactic Gods?
    Sheesh, how I miss the demands for subservience: does He not want to control me? – thru fear?
    What’s wrong with these guys? They come in PEACE? What kinda way is that to arrive at someone’s Planet?
    ……………………………
    I’m willing to believe that they are indeed verra cool people, if we don’t shoot them first!

    Welcome to Planet Earth-where our business is Tourism. know what I’m saying?

    Most human’s idea of God comes (again) from millenia-old books shoved down out throats, more of a concept thing.
    If you ever hear devout Christians discussing what is, and isn’t God, it is patently funny: they make the poor guy out to be…a million different things, but it’s all rhetorical, purposely shrouded in semi-ignorance, with a good dollop of mystique thrown in to keep it surreal.
    Try to nail them down to something tangible, and you quickly realize that Their God is indeed a head-game concept thing, and they like it so!

    They can’t help it: they’ve been that way for 157 generations,
    ea. generation passing on the Fear & Guilt Complex dutifully,
    maintaining the parasitic Church – and everyone’s happy!

    I just thank God that My God is a clever intergalactic waay-kewl Dude (nuff respeck,Dread!)
    while theirs is some relative of Hitler or Genghis Khan to hear their portrayal of the man
    (he must be a man: God can’t/mustn’t ever allowed to be a woman: very uncool,that!)

    In my ignorant judgement, Woman is the creator, Man is the destroyer…but what do I know?

    I should shut up
    before the Church excommunicates me,
    and that, Dear Believer, would just ruin my week!

  22. HeadGames.

    Red Lake Lassie,

    You GO, girl!

  23. DFX

    While I am not a Muslim and do not claim to be an expert on Islam I have many friends who are. I questioned them on the term “infidel” and all of them have said that an “infidel” is NOT a non-Muslim or Christian but in fact a person who does not believe in a Greater Being, be it Allah or God. And if memory serves me correctly I recall reading in the Bible somewhere that God instructed “His people” to go out and kill all those other tribes that did not believe in Him.

    Something to think about.

  24. GirlPower!

    Islam(particularly!) but most religions generally..
    are about the suppression of women!!
    Islam likes to ‘spin’ this as their holy duty to give “Protection” to women, the poor feeble dears…
    but modern day man now knows better.

    We got over Slavery awhile back, and we must now get over this

    Women are our equals, if not slightly better than us Mere Men. Women are stronger than men.
    They prove it every day by giving birth to all of Humanity (you’ll notice babies are roughly half men, half women).
    Were childbirth duties left to men, Planet Earth wouldn’t have half the human overpopulation problem it has today,
    bcoz I-Man fuh one, naaaah gyne through that kinda ordeal, oh no !

    – – – –

    Sometime ago I read an amusing ‘cure’ for Islam’s suppression of the ladies. We send them a batch of our finest coloured “virgins” (if yuh lucky)
    fresh from the nitty gritty black’ areas of New Yawk, where some of those Bitches in Da Hood, will get up in yo’ FACE,
    even if you be an Ayatollah!

    You know the kinda gurls I’m talkin bout !
    Such “ladies” have TOO MUCH self-esteem.
    So we send to Teheran a batch of our feisty-est
    let’s see them suppress THOSE women, and make them wear sackcloth and ashes.

    Send a CNN news team with them,too
    to bring us back the sparks-would-fly reaction.

  25. Chase

    Hey DFX how are you doing?
    How is that leg coming along ,been such a long time you graced us with a post.
    Be careful of this topic boy ,it about to get hot.
    Dont let it spoil your souse this weekend.

  26. Warrior

    I wrote this in another Post but I am transferring it to this one.
    ***************************************************

    What Barbados has here is a very clear and present danger.

    For the last five (5) years I have been telling friends and family about this threat that I perceive would be coming from the Muslim population. They all thought me to be a little off centre

    I have watched as they have increased in numbers whether by birth or arrivals into the country.

    Also watched as they amassed they wealth – check out the home owners in Hunte & King Street, Gills Rd, Whitepark Rd, Bank Hall Main Rd, in both directions, Pine Gardens, Belleville, Tweedside Rd, Government Hill and environs. Every Height, Terrace and Garden has been infused with them 2-3 lots side by side in land that was sold by the Nat’l Housing Corp. I thought someone told me that when one bought one parcel of land from the NHC one could not purchase another one from them. Land that has been difficult for the average Barbadian to get a hold of from the NHC is being bought en-mass by Muslims, and they are building Apartment buildings like crazy.

    Notice that they own the minibus and has the transport system under siege. It is out of this that the maxi taxi, ZR and minibus SUB-CULTURE has arisen to bite us in the proverbial butt. Our young ppl suffer daily at what goes on in these minibuses. Meanwhile the Muslims provide a specific bus to take their children to wherever they go to be educated.

    Notice that they women are covered from head to toe yet they continue to peddle the same apparel that allow our young damsels to expose their wares for the taking by the highest bidder. Still slavery my friend.

    Notice who owns the Rum shops on the corner of Westbury & Pres. Ken Dr. and and the property that runs from the corner to one block away from St. Leonards church. Also Notice the rum shop on the Corner of Seclusion and Black Rk Main Road

    Notice that the Government has taken pains to ensure that the Muslims in the areas surrounding Kensington are not disadvantaged in any way, yet they put tremendous strain on a business like Brankers and DaCostas Manningsby the Fontabelle Rd Project.

    Notice that the Government of Barbados has given over to them the inner workings of our Coast Guard and Police Department – the armed forces my friend as the Daily Nation put it. Only a complete raving lunatic would put a fox in his/her hen house.

    Notice who the influx of new Doctors are. Have you noticed the very ones that are so apposed to the Western ideals are so tech savvy with the Satellite dishes, internet, and such like in every home and at everyone’s disposal.

    Question:- why so many intellectuals and women are being converted to Islam
    Answer:-.Like a Moth to a flame.

    Meaning

    Irresistibly and dangerously attracted to something or someone. Origin:-( The phrase is a simple allusion to the well-known attraction that moths have to bright lights. The word moth was used the the 17th century to mean someone who was apt to be tempted by something that would lead to their downfall. This is referred to by Shakespeare in The Merchant of Venice, 1600:-( “Thus hath the candle singd the moath.”

    ***Rumple*** Big brother be watching.
    “The more you look the less you see. – Old Bajan addage.

    ***kairosfocus***
    H’mm:

    Q 9:5, PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship [i.e convert to Islam] and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    NIV Revelation 13:-14-17

    14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
    ******************************************************

    Warrior
    March 30th, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    Is not a Muslim woman the Director of the Barbados Drug Service. I stand to be corrected on this.

    I have also noticed that we speak about Mr. Lynch almost every day yet, we must not overlook the role the Billie Millar as played in events that I listed in the above post. That is why Integrity, transparency and ACCOUNTABILITY must be our focus. Must be the focus of every Politician leader, boss manager supervisor, playground bully who-ever otherwise who knows

    Leave a Reply

  27. Warrior

    Head Games,

    the walls did not collapse, but rather they sunk into the ground.

    Go look for yourself.

  28. Warrior

    Head Games,

    I took the time to read your post.

    I am reminded that as children, we suddenly spun round and round and round, and at a particular point when you stopped you could not tell if you were spinning or in actual fact if the things around you were spinning.

    I strongly suspect that is what is currently your dilemma.

  29. Pig

    Hi DFX

    Thinking about it, and here is what I get to:

    1) Whether it be infidel or non-Muslim, one would still have a lower class of rights than the Muslim in the Islamic ruled regimes. Is this fair?

    2) Islamic fundamentalists, including the Saudi Al Qaeda, which stemmed from Wahabbi, interpret the words literally in the modern day, whereas in the west we live with our counties’ constitutions and laws.

    Ok, now I’ve thought about it.

  30. H’mm:

    Following up:

    1] Pig: “Whether it be infidel or non-Muslim, onewould still have a lower class of rights than the Muslim in the Islamic ruled regimes”

    Actually, Q 9:5 and 29 already address the difference.

    In 29, People of the Book [Jews and Christians, extended since as a practical matter to Zoroastrians, Hindus etc] are subjected to apartheid-like dhimmitude. Defeated pagans, in principle, are offered in 5 the choice of Islam or the sword.

    In either, case — unfortunately abundantly vindicated by history right from the C7 – 8 origins of Islam’s militant spread from Yathrib/Medina to Tours in the W and India in the E, and since — non-muslims simply do not get what we would recognise as fairness and justice under Islamist rule.

    2] Warrior:

    Could you provide documetation on your pattern of claims and underlying observations?

    3] HG: “I may (and do) question . . .”

    First, kindly consider whether your inputs are simply serving to distract from the material issues at stake by rushing off to your favourite agenda of Bible difficulties and other arguments against Bible-believing Christian faith.

    While those issues can be taken up and have been taken up by myself and by many others in detail, in this context they simply do not help us to understand and appropriately respond to the novel and potentially highly dangerous challenges raised by Militant Islamism in the Caribbean. (Notice how you have simply failed to properly engage the issues posed at the head of this thread but have rushed off to a string of your favourite arguments . . .)

    Having said that, allow me to pause and point you to a point where a serious start can be made on the root issues your skeptical-rationalist claims face. These begin with the fallacy of selective hyperskepticism: begging worldview level questions through the misleading assertion popularised by Sagan, that “extraordinary claims require extraordinaty evidence.” (The “trick” in this is that things often become “extraordinary” precisely because they do not sit well with one’s particular worldview assumptions. To do the job right, you need to compare the difficulties of the undelrying worldviews relative to factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance [vs simplistic-ness and ad hoc patchwork-ery]. And, in case you wish to look athe next level up, the linked page discusses Clifford’s underlying evidentialism in detail.)

    4] Rumpel:

    Your issue of the need for mutual respect and a culture of nurture rather than exploitation and crudity are well taken.

    That is in part why, all across the nominally Christian Caribbean [Cf Equiano’s stinging rebuke to the nominal Christians of his day! (Cf Ch 2 of this C18 former slave’s autobiography, Interesting Narrative)], there is a desperate need for repentance and reformation of what William Wilberforce called “manners” — i.e. the general moral climate.

    We can start with the Pauline form of the Golden Rule: Love does no harm, so love fulfills the core Moral Law. [Cf Rom 13:8 – 10.] A society of preople who practice neighboutrr love would not routinely indulge in the sort of disrespectful crudities you highlight above.

    For shame, let us repent and be reformed!

    5] GP: Islam(particularly!) but most religions generally..
    are about the suppression of women!!

    This semi-marxist view may indeed be a typical radical feminist perspective on most of history and culture, but that does not make it fair, balanced or accurate.

    For, the major religions are not ABOUT sex roles in family and society, but instead the far wider issue of what does it mean to be and live authentically as a human being in an often puzzling, challenging and painful world. Thus, the issue of worldview, life agenda, relationship withthe Creator and one’s fellow creatures — thus, ethics and morality — have been central to the great religions.

    While indeed, the lot of many women across time has been painful and too often oppressive, it is fair coment to add that the identical point is equally true of many men and indeed children across time and today too. In that context, it is further fair comment to point out that the Judaeo-Christian religious tradition has for many centuries been precisely in the forefront of making a difference with that, and — contrary to much current ill-informed opinion and angry assertion — has made and is making major contributions to the liberation and upliftment of the oppressed and hurting across the world, including women.

    6] Manhaj:

    We are well aware of the bland statements on how law abiding Muslims are, such as you have reiterated. And, for 90% of Muslims globally such are probably more or less accurate. But for the 10% of militant Islamists that a Saudi Prince estimates — 120 – 150 millions — that obviously does not hold as our headlines and newscasts for years amply demonstrate. This includes, unfortunately, several Caribbean persons who have been radicalised and have been implicated in serious violence or agitation in the name of Islam — the Jamaican Imam gaoled for sedition in the UK, Mr Richard Reid, Lee Malvo, one of the four 7/7 London Bombers and more.

    Your failure to coherently address the Quranic trexts such as 9:5, 29 and many others, the related Hadiths and histories, as well as the current wave of militancy as just pointed to, does not give us comfort.

    That is multiplied dramatically when we can see in your responses the sort of inadvertently revealing verbal slips that BFP has clipped and highlighted above.

    Cheerio

    GEM of TKI

  31. HeadGames.

    Warrior,
    Thanks for the correction re.

    the walls did not collapse, but rather they sunk into the ground. ===> a geophysical process of seismicity called liquefaction.
    Scientists at UWI-Seismic have such a worst case scenario for the Diego Martin Valley in T&T, where the entire valley floor turns to jelly(because the vibration frequencies are suitable) and pours the contents of the valley out into the Gulf of Paria.
    Yes,’ Biblical’, I know….epic!

    “Go look for yourself.” ===> Not likely. Wouldn’t know where to look, and even if I did… had enough of that brainwashing “Stories” stuff.
    I’m into knowledge these days, not ancient hearsay. Still, thanks for the correction.

  32. Maat

    Interesting discussion with a couple of meaningful threads. The contributor “head games” claims to be more satisfied with the pursuit and embracing of the type of knowledge that modern society has to offer while the contributor GEM of TKI undertakes and posts seemingly well researched information.
    I suppose both contributors are aware of something called the placebo effect, where a person is given ‘medication’ that contains no active ingredients and yet seem to benefit or suffer in much the same way as a person who takes a real medication. We cannot underestimate the power of belief. A great deal of that which we call knowledge is just a belief as real personal knowledge is based on personal experience. Of course people will say that we do not need to jump off a sky scraper to know that we will fall to the earth, yet at one time the majority of the scientific world did not believe that we could develop machines that could fly. Many people still find it difficult to understand that people with so called limited scientific ability could have built the great artifacts of Egypt. Someone did believe it and it is a reality.
    When we read, hear stories (nancy/fairy or otherwise) we do not gain knowledge, we gain awareness. When we put this awareness to the test by attempting to experience it, we then have knowledge, we know if it is true or not.
    Many people claim to be religious, yet do not practise their faith as an everyday part of their lives, it is often lip service allowing for hypocrisy.
    It is easy to belittle something of which we have no true knowledge ie having practised.

    Peace

  33. Maat:

    A bit of a side-point, on knowledge and belief:

    “A great deal of that which we call knowledge is just a belief as real personal knowledge is based on personal experience.”

    You have here raised the vexed, major philosophical issue of epistemology. As I discussed in the just linked lecture, my best overall understanding of it is that knowledge is: [1] in principle, warranted, true belief, and [2] in praxis, provisionally warranted, credibly true belief.

    That is, I am adverting to the possibility of error in our field of credible knowledge, a pattern that extends not only in common-sense activities to science, but also even to the exalted field of Mathematics, where after Godel, we know that no sufficiently rich axiomatic system can be both complete and logically coherent; worse, there is no constructive procedure for setting up a system of axioms that are known to be coherent.

    Thus, we see not only undecidable but true propositions, but also that Mathematicians too walk by faith. Further tothis, if one keeps asking “why” does one accept any particular set of claims, one soon enough ends up at a faith-point, the first plausibles that serve as the underpinnings of his/her worldview. Reason and belief, and knowledge and belief are all inextricably intertwined in our thought life. (Hyperskepticism — as discussed inthe linked — is therefore a self-refuting non-starter; as, one cannot know that knowledge is impossible. So, to selectively apply such hyperskepticism to claims that one does not like, to dismiss what would otherwise be adequate evidence, is a fallacy.)

    Back on the main topic, the issue is that beliefs and worldviews have behavioral consequences and real world implications, and Manhaj has inadvertently let slip some troubling consequences. We therefore need to soberly assess the potential consequences of what he advocates, and make some decisions as a region on howwe will live with Islam and Islamism.

    Similarly, evolutionary materialism and associated selectively hyperskeptical modernism and attempts to de-Christianise the Caribbean’s intellectual culture have arguably damaging consequences for the accuracy and soundness of our knowledge base, for ethics, law and government, as well as the general moral climate and ability to function effectively of our societies, and we should look at these very carefully as well.

    Cheerio

    GEM of TKI

  34. Johno

    We christians have so much tolerance for people of ALL FAITHS…but the same is not shown to us. However give me CHRISTIANITY any day..site.
    Johno

  35. No Salafi---- Sufi

    I managed to pick up a copy of today’s wall street journal. The article in it, by a Muslim, has quite a lot to say about

    Salafism

    Reading it, I now understand why the recent strident calls out of the Islamic Teaching Centre, as letters to the editor, show signs of increasing fundamentalism amongst the few local converts. It also explains one or two of the more strident campaigns seen as blogs and letters to the editor.

    This is a VERY dangerous thing for Barbados, and it would seem that Salafism could be the start of something very sinister, if allowed to indoctrinate, as the write Salafi Manhaj (above) has written. I must therefore draw this to the attention, and I would like to urge the police, the powers, and the Muslim community, to carefully look at this, and to move towards a more western teaching of the doctrine. If what the writer says is true, well…trouble big time. It isn’t available except by Subscription, here is a transcript:

    The Trouble with Islam by Tawfik Hamid

    Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic World’s decline, entitled, “What went wrong?” Astonishingly, there was, among many western “progressives,” a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis’ implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.

    But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo cliterectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach3-year-old boys and girls the idea of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists’ defense.

    These “progressives” frequently cite the need to examine “root causes”. In this they are correct: Terrorism is only a manifestation of the disease, but not the disease itself. But the root causes are quite different from what they might think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda’s second in command, Aymam al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it, While there are many ideological “rootlets” of Islamism, the main tap root has a name—Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.

    It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating of women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the “end of days”. The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbarous practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.

    The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years, I have been developing, and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.

    Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals- who unceasingly claim to support human rights- have become obstacles for reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah’s inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamic terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination, or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western “progressives” pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.

    Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria- which happened in the last few decades- or the slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.

    Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a façade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.

    The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid bombing, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terrorist attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.

    Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the 4 month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine’s formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.

    Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti- Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America’s enemies.

    Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based upon an anti-liberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West today.

    Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand- but so far we haven’t- that Muslim organisations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered “moderates”.

    All this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.

    Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.

    Dr. Hamid, a one-time member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West

    Salafi Manhaj appears to be Salafi, a fundamentalist, and he is indoctrinating Bajans. The Saudi influence of Salafi is here amongst us.

  36. Warrior

    I hope that people notices that large amounts of renovations happening to the mosques at Passage Rd and Belleville.

    Are they preparing for CWC too or some other sizable event????

  37. Jerome Hinds

    Warrior,

    That other sizeable event….??

    The INAUGURATION of Owen Arthur as PRESIDENT….under the REPUBLIC of Barbados…!

    That’s why the Police & Army CHIEFS were seen in the newspapers leaving the MOSQUES recently…!

    They were there to DISCUSS how to CONTROL the large crowds EXPECTED…!

    After the next GENERAL ELECTION…..look for this EVENT to take place…!

    The Who’s Who’s invitation LIST includes…Chavez….Castro…& MUGABE..!

  38. NSS:

    Dr Tawfik Hamid has made some very telling points.

    Your posting of this article gives some key perspective, and it would be wise to back down on the party politicking and points scoring — and instead pay attention.

    I think we need to pay particular attention to the implications of the three global tidal waves that are shaping C21:

    [1] the accelerating decadence and decay of the West,

    [2] the militancy of Islamism [with passive enabling as Hamid notes on],

    [3] the century-long surge of Christian revival, reformation and transformation in the South of our Planet.

    My long-term bet is on China. But, with a twist: Prester John 2. (For, on current trends, the China of 50 years from now will probably have a critical mass of Christians driving its culture.)

    GEM of TKI

  39. Bajan Muslim

    Hello everyone, I just came across this website while browsing the net. I will try my best to clear up some of the issues. I find Muslims in Barbados need to do more to educate the public about Islam and clear up the misconceptions.

    The article I am going to post is from an Islamic Scholar in England, who most Muslims in Barbados would respect. I hope it will help to answer the following question:

    “Please, Salafi Manhaj, in very clear and unequivocal language – tell us that the Koran and Islam do NOT authorise violence to spread the religion or to keep Muslims from converting to other religions.”

    Islamic rulings are primarily derived from the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah bless him & give him peace).
    ——————

    What is the Islamic stance regarding the recent attacks on the London underground tube network? Can it be justified in any way? I hear many non-Muslims accusing Islam of terrorism. What can I say?

    Date Posted: 04/08/2005

    ————————————————–

    In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

    The recent tragic events in London and elsewhere have unfortunately prompted many non-Muslims to associate Islam with violence and terrorism. Muslims worldwide are experiencing a very difficult stage of their existence, and facing many trials and tribulations. We are being accused of terrorism, extremism and fundamentalism. The idea that Islam is a violent religion is becoming more and more widespread to the point that even some ignorant Muslims are being affected with this propaganda.

    The truth is that Islam is a religion of peace and mercy. One of the meanings of “Islam” is peace. There is no place for extremism in Islam. Our Creator the Almighty says in the Qur’an:

    “O People of the Book! Commit no extremism in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth.” (Surah al-Nisa, V: 171)

    Even though the above verse was in relation to the People of the book being extreme in their religion to the point that they considered Jesus (peace be upon him) to be the son of God, it has a general application to it, as is the case with all the verses of the Qur’an. Hence, Islam was sent down by God to preserve and protect the life, wealth and honour of human beings. Islam teaches its followers to be gentle, kind and tolerant towards other people including non-Muslims.

    The beloved Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace), who was sent as a mercy for the whole of mankind, demonstrated such kindness, compassion, generosity and politeness towards non-Muslims that it is difficult to find similar examples in history.

    When Makka was in the grip of famine, he personally went out to help his enemies who had made him leave his home town. At the conquest of Makka, all his enemies came under his power and control, yet he set them all free saying that not only are you being given amnesty today but rather you are also forgiven for what you have done in the past. When non-Muslim prisoners of war were presented before him, he treated them with such kindness and tenderness as one would treat one’s own children. His enemies inflicted upon him all sorts of injuries and pain but he never raised his hand in revenge neither did he wish ill for them, rather he would pray for their guidance. A delegation from the tribe of Banu Thaqifa (who had yet not embraced Islam) came to visit him, and was given the honour of staying in the Mosque of the Prophet, a place regarded by Muslims to be the most sacred of places. (See: Ma’arif al-Qur’an, 2/51)

    There are many more such examples in the life of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). The episode of Ta’if, the treaty of al-Hudaybiyya and many other such events quite categorically demonstrate the viewpoint of Islam with regards to the treatment of non-Muslims.

    Islam totally rejects and condemns violence, terrorism and the taking of innocent lives. There can be no justification whatsoever in Islam for crimes against humanity, such as the recent London bombings. The act of bombing trains and buses, killing and injuring innocent people is without doubt prohibited and unlawful in Islam. There are many evidences found in the Qur’an and sayings of the Messenger of God (peace and blessings be upon him) in support of this view. A few are presented below:

    1) Islam does not allow the killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants under any circumstance. It is unlawful to kill a human being, Muslim or non-Muslim, without an Islamically justified reason (such as someone guilty of murder, and this too is only permitted for those who have political authority). The killing of innocents is against basic humanity, and has absolutely no place in Islam. The Shariah of the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) was sent to protect five fundamental interests or universals (maqasid/kuliyyat): preservation of religion (hifz al-din), preservation of life (hifz al-nafs), preservation of intellect (hifz al-aql), preservation of lineage (hifz al-nasl), and preservation of wealth (hifz al-mal). Things that harm any of these five universals are contrary to the very foundations of Divine Law.

    Allah Most High states clearly in the Qur’an:

    “For that cause, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever kills a human for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all humanity; and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.” (Surah al-Ma’ida, V: 32)

    And He Most High states:

    “Allah forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are just.” (Surah al-Mumtahina, V: 8)

    And:

    “Take not life, which Allah has made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus dose He command you, that you may learn wisdom.” (Surah al-An’am, V: 151)

    And:

    “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.” (Surah al-Ma’idah, V: 8)

    In the above verses, Allah Most High commands us to treat non-Muslims justly and honourably. The dislike of their beliefs should not prompt a Muslim to treat them unfairly, neither is it allowed to harm those who do not fight Muslims for their faith or drive them out of their homes; rather, a Muslim must deal with them in a just and kind manner.

    It is related in Imam Muslim’s Sahih, that the Companion Hakim ibn Hizam (may Allah be pleased with him) passed by a group of people in Sham who had been made to stand in the sun after oil had been poured over their heads. He asked, “What is this?” He was told that they were being punished for failing to pay their land tax. Hakim ibn Hizam (may Allah be pleased with him) responded: “Truly, I have heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) say: “God shall torment those who torment others in this life.” (Sahih Muslim, no: 2613)

    In the Sunan of Imam Abu Dawud, it is related from the Companion Ribah ibn al-Rabi’ (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: “We were with the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) in warfare when he saw a group of people gathered around something. Hence, he sent a man to inquire what people had gathered over. The man returned saying they had gathered around a dead woman The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “This woman did not come here to fight (hence to kill her was not permitted)”. (Sunan Abu Dawud, no: 2669)

    Based on this, classical and contemporary Muslim jurists (fuqaha) have quite clearly reiterated that the killing of innocent people, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, is not allowed under any circumstance in Shariah.

    In the recent attacks on London, almost all of the people were innocent civilians; hence, in light of the abovementioned evidences, the prohibition of this act is quite clear. The attacks killed many men, women, children, non-Muslims as well as Muslims. The BBC website recently published the list of the bomb blast victims and amongst the many killed, there were also Muslims. The majority of the victims killed in the recent Egypt bomb blasts were Egyptians and Muslims. Hence, the perpetrators of these acts are killing innocent non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

    Some people argue that innocent Muslims are being killed by non-Muslims; hence Muslims should be allowed to kill innocent people in retaliation. This argument is completely wrong, dangerous and not in line with Islamic teachings. Two wrongs do not make a right. Islam does not allow Muslims to respond to “a mistake” by another mistake.

    Allah Most High says in the Qur’an:

    “Revile not you those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance.” (Surah al-An’am, V: 108)

    It is not allowed for a Muslim to follow up an evil with another evil. If Muslims feel that the UK and US governments are killing innocent civilians in Iraq and elsewhere, it does not give them the right to kill innocent citizens in London or New York.

    2) The second reason for the prohibition of these barbaric acts is that under no circumstances are Muslims allowed to attack women, children, the old and the meek, the sick, and those that are worshipping. Even in the midst of a war, the Muslim army is ordered to avoid killing women and children.

    The two most authentic books of Prophetic traditions according to the Muslims, Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, relate from the Companion Abd Allah ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: “A woman was found to have been killed in one of the battles, hence the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) forbade the killing of women and children.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 3014)

    The Companion Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace), when sending off an army, would say: “Leave in the name of Allah, but do not kill an old man, nor a young child and neither a woman…” (Sunan Abu Dawud, no: 2614)

    The Companion Abd Allah ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and give him peace) would say when sending off his armies: “Do not kill those who are worshipping in their places of worship.” (Musannaf ibn Abi Shayba, no: 14078)

    The Companion Jabir ibn Abd Allah (may Allah be pleased with him) reports that they (Muslims) would not kill traders of the polytheists (enemies).” (Musannaf ibn Abi Shayba, no: 14076)

    Accordingly, Muslim jurists are quite clear that even in the midst of a war, it is prohibited to kill and attack old people, women, children, worshippers, those who are merely there for trading purposes, disabled people, sick and weak people, etc. Hence, bombing trains and buses where many such people may be present can never be justified in light of the guidance given by the Messenger of Islam (peace and blessings be upon him).

    3) Thirdly, Islam places a great deal of emphasis on preserving and protecting the wealth of human beings to the point that the Messenger of Islam (may Allah bless him & give him peace) safeguarded the wealth of non-Muslims even in the midst of a war.

    Allah Most High says:

    O you who believe! Consume not your wealth among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for Allah.” (Surah al-Nisa, V: 29-30)

    Thus, the Shariah preserves and safeguards the wealth of individuals, Muslims and non-Muslims. To damage or destroy the wealth of others is clearly prohibited and sinful in the eyes of Islam.

    4) Fourthly, Muslims (and also non-Muslims) are obliged to obey the law of the land they are residing in. When one lives in a particular country, one agrees verbally, in writing or effectively to adhere to the rules and regulations of that country. This, according to Shariah, is considered to be a covenant, agreement and trust. One is obliged to fulfil the trust regardless of whether it is contracted with a friend, enemy, Muslim, non-Muslim or a government. The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) and his Companions (Allah be pleased with them all) always stood by their word and did not breach any trust or agreement, as it is clear from the books of Prophetic traditions and history. To break a promise or breach a trust of even a non-Muslim is absolutely unlawful and considered a sign of being a hypocrite.

    Allah Most High states:

    “And fulfil (every) engagement (ahd), for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the day of reckoning).” (Surah al-Isra, v. 34)

    And regarding the one who breaks an agreement and is guilty of treachery, Allah Almighty says:

    “Allah loves not the treacherous.” (Surah al-Anfal, v. 58)

    The Companion Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “The signs of a hypocrite are three: When he speaks he leis, when he makes a promise he breaks it, and when he is given a trust he breaches it.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 33)

    The practice of the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) and his Companions (Allah be pleased with them all) also clearly illustrates the importance of fulfilling a covenant, and the unlawfulness of treachery.

    During the battle of Khaybar which took place between the Muslims and Jews, the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) and his Companions (Allah be pleased with them all) besieged the fort of Khaybar wherein the Jews were residing. A poor Shepard who was working for his Jewish master had already heard about the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), and upon seeing the Muslim army, he thought it was a good opportunity to inquire about Islam. He came out of the fort with the goats and sheep he was looking after and asked the whereabouts of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). Upon being directed towards the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), he inquired about the basic teachings of Islam, and then said: “What will my status be if I accept Islam?” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) replied: “I will embrace you, you will become my brother and enjoy the same rights as other Muslims.” He said: “I am very poor, in a bad state and have bad odour coming from my body and cloths. How will you embrace me if I am in such a condition?” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) replied: “I shall embrace you, for all of Allah’s servants are equal in His sight.” He said: “If I embrace Islam, what will my fate be?” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “I bear witness that if you accept Islam, Allah will change the darkness of your body to light, and the bad odour to good fragrance.” These words of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) had their effect on his heart, thus he embraced Islam.

    After entering into the fold of Islam, he asked the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) what he was obliged to do? The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him & give him peace) said that the Muslims were presently in the midst of a war, thus the obligation at this moment and time was to participate in Jihad. However, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to him: “The first and foremost thing you need to do is return these animals to its Jewish owner and then engage in Jihad.”

    As mentioned earlier, these animals belonged to a Jew who was in the opposing army, but the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) ordered him to go back and return them to its owner. The reason being is that he had taken these goats and sheep on a trust, and it is necessary by Shariah to return the belongings taken on trust back to its owner.

    Thereafter, he participated in the holy battle (jihad) and was amongst the martyrs. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) recognised his body and addressed his Companions saying that he saw this Shepard being given a bath in the sacred water of paradise, and Allah had changed his darkness to shining light and his bad foul smell to refreshing fragrance.

    The above is an amazing example of fulfilling a trust of even an enemy. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was in the midst of a war with the Jews of al-Khaybar, yet he ordered the herdsman to go back and return the animals. This Shepard had taken these animals under a contract before the war, hence he was ordered to fulfil the contract and return them to its rightful owner sound and safe.

    Therefore, from an Islamic perspective, it is obligatory for a Muslim to honour a commitment or a pledge. One must obey the law of the land unless the law commands one to forgo one’s basic religious rights. If one disagrees with the foreign policy of a country one lives in, one should use lawful means in getting one’s concerns heard. If an individual is angry with Britain’s role in Iraq, then one should use legal and lawful means to prevent that. It will not be permitted to retaliate against the British government by killing innocent civilians living in the UK.

    To conclude, the above are just four of the many reasons found in the Qur’an and Prophetic Traditions (sunna) prohibiting clearly what took place recently in London. The perpetrators of this act need to realise that their actions are not only unfruitful rather they are doing more damage and harm to the Muslim community than benefit. Islam teaches us to be kind and loving towards other people. Islam teaches us to be merciful and not transgress on the life, wealth and honour of innocent people.

    At the same time, we sincerely advise the British government to rethink its foreign policy. Terrorism is rejected whether it comes in the form of young people blasting bombs in London or F-16 fighter planes dropping bombs over Baghdad. Terrorism is defined as “the unlawful use of force against a civilian population as a way to intimidate that population into submitting to some political agenda or some other objective. Hence, the killing of civilians is unacceptable according to everyone by the Geneva Convention, yet the US in world war two killed hundreds of thousands of civilians with intent in Japan by bombing them. It was understood that these civilians would die. Thus, violence, terrorism and the killing of civilians is rejected by Islam and Muslims wherever this takes place.

    Also, we sincerely urge the British government to take measures in protecting innocent Muslims who fear reprisal over the London bombings. Abuse (physical and verbal) and hate crimes must be dealt with in a rigorous manner. Any kind of assault on innocent people and damage caused to places of worship must not be tolerated.

    Similarly, Muslims should not be singled out and targeted by the police in stop-and-search operations. There is a genuine fear and concern within the Muslim community that they are being targeted by the police. Many are frustrated by the increased use of stop-and-search and the new “shoot-to-kill to protect” policy for suicide bombers. Muslims should not be discriminated against by police trying to prevent potential terror attacks. Stop and searches should be based on good intelligence, not just skin colour.

    Finally, we pray for peace, tranquillity and harmony in this world. We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world, whether individual terror or state terror, whether in London, the US, Iraq or elsewhere. We ask Allah, our God and creator, to make matters easy for us and that the shedding of innocent blood stops forever, Ameen.

    And Allah knows best

    (Mufti) Muhammad ibn Adam
    Darul Iftaa
    Leicester , UK

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/question.asp?txt_QuestionID=q-18405844

    *********************************

    Comment by Cliverton

    YOU SAY…

    “In the recent attacks on London, almost all of the people were innocent civilians; hence, in light of the abovementioned evidences, the prohibition of this act is quite clear.”

    “ALMOST ALL” were innocent civilians?

    Pray tell… who that was killed was not an “innocent civilian” ?

    You twist words…. to leave yourself an out … to kill, to murder.

    Your own words tell the truth about who you are.

    We are not fooled.

    BFP Cliverton

  40. Bajan Muslim

    I will try to get details of the following question:

    “How about the killing of Muslims who leave the faith? I understand that is not only condoned, but is directed by the Koran.”

    For now I will just say that no one in Barbados can take it upon themselves to kill a Muslim who leaves the Islamic faith (nor kill anyone for that matter). All the Islamic penalties and laws for crimes can only be enforced in an Islamic state, and there is a specific procedure which must be followed. Any and everybody cant go around killing people.

    ****************

    Comment by BFP Cliverton….

    So, in an Islamic state, it is ok and in fact, ordered, that persons who leave the Islamic faith be killed.

    Thank you very much for your candor

    that is why we must fight an Islamic state in Barbados. The barbaric fascist actions of Islam are totally against our Bajan values.

    Thank you for telling the truth.

    BFP Cliverton

  41. Bajan Muslim

    “So, in an Islamic state, it is ok and in fact, ordered, that persons who leave the Islamic faith be killed.”

    I never said the above. I said I would find out the details concerning the issue.

    I just made it clear that no Muslim in Barbados can kill anyone, nor can any Muslim in Barbados take the law in their own hands.

    ****************************

    Comment by Cliverton…

    But you don’t disagree that in an Islamic state where there is “pure” Islam that it is a “pure” Islamic position backed by the Koran that apostates should be killed.

    Right?

    The fact that Bajan Muslims do not kill apostates now is merely a result of the fact that they have to live under Bajan law as they are a minority. If Muslims were in the majority in Barbados, we could then expect that sharia law would be implemented and apostates would be killed.

    Right?

  42. DFX

    Cliverton,

    I think we need to be tolerant of others’ beliefs. It can be argued that the Bible says that if a person worships another god then he must be put to death. Check out Deuteronomy 17:2-7.
    There are maniacs in every religion. We need to know them for what they are. Look at Jim Jones in Guyana, 900 dead in the name of the Lord; Waco, Texas is another example. Anybody can take a book (The Bible or the Koran) and twist it to what they want it to say. As intelligent beings WE have to know right from wrong. I went to school with Hindus, Muslims and Christians and cherish them all as friends.

    Please Bajan Muslim quoted somebody else said he would further research the the matter. Is it not then only fair to give him that chance?

    Lets all live in peace

    DFX

    *****************

    Hi DFX

    I understand where you are coming from, but the tolerance that you speak of is entirely one sided vis a vis Christians vs Muslims. As to you dragging up a bible verse from Moses’ time – what – 3,000 years ago (?), I would respectfully suggest that the verse and the actions it orders have not been part of actions be Christians since the middle ages or so – if they ever were “Christian”.

    Whereas, contemporary Muslim law and actions in any number of countries is all about wiping out non-Muslims as a matter of religious belief.

    As for our Muslim friend having to “research” the Koran’s position on killing apostates, that is totally absurd and a technique on his part to avoid the issue.

    Neither will he deny that the Koran says such a thing as a command – because it does.

    DFX, you make the mistake of assuming that your own worldview of tolerance and peace are shared goals by everyone. I suggest that you visit memri.org where you can watch typical children’s cartoons from Saudi Arabia and the Middle East – where children are prepared to become suicide murderers for the glory of Allah.

    Do not assume that all folks share your quest for peace as their primary societal goal.

  43. Yardbroom

    Most Muslims say their religion is one of peace and so it might be, but terrorists who engage in acts of terrorism and the killing of innocent people in Madrid, Kenya, London, New York etc are all Muslims.

    Most impartial people judge events by actions not words, long passages from any book become meaningless, even if they are interpreted by a scholar of some note, if ultimately actions by Muslims lead to carnage.

    We could all do with a litle less religion and more love and peace.

  44. DFX

    Cliverton,

    I agree with you. But I think maybe my friend Yardbroom has put it better than I have. “We could all do with a little less religion and more love and peace.”

    How do we as “Christians” deal with the fact that more Muslims have been killed by Christians in the name of God than the other way around? Yes the Old Testament is 3000 odd years old; but it is the first half of the Bible that we sooooo love to wave about. So how do deal with that? Your can’t go very far on 4 flat tires now can it? So if we try to dis-regard the Old Testament are we not taking out the foundation of our religion?

    I speak under correction but there is a verse in the Koran that says something along the line that you can warn the non-believer or not warn non-believer but it does not matter because as Allah has blinded them and theirs will be an awful doom. In other words ignore the non-believer, Allah will deal with them. SAQ 2: I think is the reference.

    So there I have used the Koran to say leave non-believers alone and I already used the Bible to say kill them. I think it’s the spin the person puts on the argument. We need to guard against those that wish to corrupt both the Bible and the Koran and lead us away the truth.

    Yes I agree that there are dangerous Islamic Extremists out there, yes I am afraid of what they have done and are doing. But I think that we in Barbados are better educated and would not be so easily lead astray.

    Anyways, got to go and make some money to help pay for this brand new reconditioned Oval that we got.

    Peace

    DFX

  45. I would feel a lot more comfortable witht he claim that Islam is a religion of peace if I were seeing a plain, public repudiation and self-policing against the violent Islamists. But neither in the streets nor at more official levels do I see a plain general, unequivocal repudiation and mass rejection. What I see looks a lot more like deniablility.

    I would like to see a more serious demonstration of peaceability, especially in a fortnight that has seen three Christians peaceably working in a Bible publishers in Turkey [which has had Christians in it a lot longer than it has had Muslims] having their throats cut in their place of work by muslim radicals on grounds of “prosleytising,” i.e preaching the gospel.

    IT is high time we move beyond that sort of nonsense in the civilised world.

    GEM of TKI

  46. DFX

    Let me ask you a question.

    We got people here on this little rock that afraid to open their mouth and say what they feel about conditions in the country that is relatively civilized by most standards and mostly free of civil unrest. Yet they are silent. Now lets take any Islamic country where we have an extremist leadership and try to figure out if any of our brothers who understand the TRUE meaning of Islam in it’s purist sense would be reckless enough to speak out. Unlike here they will not be blacklisted.. They will be killed. So my question to you is. If you were there would you march in the streets and protest? I like my head perched right between my shoulders I don’t know about you.

    There are more Muslims in the world than Christians and only a handful of truly evil ones. We need to recognize that and fix the problem. Islam is NOT evil. Read the Koran you will be surprised. And no I am not a Muslim.

    Peace

    DFX

    ********************

    Hi DFX

    Robert here.

    Please quote your sources for “more Muslims than Christians in the world”

    Also, with 1 Billion or so Muslims in the world, if only 5% are “radical” as you describe (and I believe it is far more than that) then that is 50 million people in the world’s largest murder/suicide cult.

    But the truth is, those you describe as “radical” are those who are only obeying what the Koran says. The majority of “peaceful” Muslims are actually not really adhering to the foundational beliefs of their own religion. Read the Koran for yourself.

  47. DFX

    Robert,

    I’m not talking about recent times. I’m talking over the centuries.

    And I have read the Koran. But like I said it all depends on the spin you put on it. I don’t find it half as violent as the Old Testament. But I am a Christian minded person with an open mind. I think that everyone has the right to worship how and when they please. This argument might in the end be fruitless as Christianity and Islam are about 800 years old as religions while I think it is Hinduism in it’s purist sense has been around for over 3000. Ever seen the videos of the peace loving Monks fighting?
    I am, and I’m sure you are too, happy that we don’t stick to the all of the teachings of the Bible, take a look at Numbers 25:10-13. Image if we could be killed in the name of the Lord just for being in an inter-racial marriage? And the guy that did it rewarded to boot. I’m sure that you’ve had that one or the “un-equally yoked” argument thrown your way at least once. I know I have!

    Both Allah and God are jealous gods it would seem. But I think more informed minds know what worked 2000 year ago can’t work now. But some people will never figure it out and that is sad.

    Peace

    DFX

  48. agenda

    dfx,

    speaking about tolerance to people with a certain world view is pointless. bfp has continuously chosen to enagage in shallow, unacademic, narrow minded generalisations and sensationalist diatribe about islam and muslims. not to mention it is done in such an arrogant pompous manner. there are a multitude of issues affecting barbados but for the right wing idealogues on here, islam is the number one. kairo focus aka. christian fundamentalist right winger, posts these long one sided irrational tirades about islam. people with small minds, of a lesser intelligence or wanting to promote a certain agenda will readily believe him and shout his praises. if you dont agree with people of this ilk, they attack you, get personal and nasty. it is heartening however to know that most bajans dont think like bfp on these sort of issues. imagine a small island full of right wing conservatives. what a horrible intolerant place to live. right wing christian fundamentalists are just as much a threat to free thought and peace as radical islam. both must be resisted.

  49. DFX

    Agenda,

    You must be outside the bowl looking in LOL.
    You are so right. But I have a pretty thick skin and I love to play Devil’s Advocate sometimes. But wouldn’t indeed be a horrible place to live if it was only Christian. No alcohol, no freedom of choice, having to go to church every Sunday….Wait no alcohol, no freedom of choice, having to go mosque , what is the difference between the 2 when taken to the extreme?

    Peace my friend

    DFX

  50. Bajan Muslim

    So many comments, I cant respond to all right now.

    “But neither in the streets nor at more official levels do I see a plain general, unequivocal repudiation and mass rejection. What I see looks a lot more like deniablility.
    I would like to see a more serious demonstration of peaceability”

    I agree we dont really hear about this, nor see enough of this in the media.

    But in Trinidad there is a local Islamic TV station, IBN. It shows a varitey of programs, local and international, and has live call in shows as well. They do a good job at explaining Islam and clearing up misconceptions. They have a lot of activivities for Muslims and Non Muslims such as lectures, dinners, sports days, camps, and many people learn about Islam and become Muslims through these efforts.
    http://www.ibntv8.com/
    (website under construction)

    Then there is Sheikh Yusuf Estes, the former preacher from Texas who converted to Islam along with his wife, father, and step mother. He had lectures in Trinidad and Barbados recently, and I am sure he condemns terrorism and clears up misconseptions. Read his story here
    http://www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp

    Also google William Rodriguez, former janitor at the World Trade Center (I have heard that he recently converted to Islam) Read his account on 9/11.

    Also read up on Yvonne Ridley, a British journalist best known for her capture by the Taliban and subsequent conversion to Islam.
    http://www.yvonneridley.org/

    **************

    Comment by BFP Robert

    See “Stockholm Syndrome

  51. H’mm:

    A few follow up remarks are plainly needed, especially on the resort to namecalling. But first:

    1] DFX: I have read the Koran. But like I said it all depends on the spin you put on it. I don’t find it half as violent as the Old Testament.

    The OT admittedly has its violent moments and raises troubling issues. [cf a discussion of perhaps the most troubling here, it is not a simple or obvious as it may appear to those who are just doing a surface reading. Also, we need to reckon with the issues of being a state in a world of hostile and violent powers. That leads to dilemmas not so different from those faced in our time; the “lesser of evils” is a real challenge not just a phrase. And given say Mal 2:16 on divorce, and Jesus’ comments in Matt 19 on the same topic,we cannot simply infer from Divine permission that God is happy witht he behaviour of hard-hearted men or what must be done to respond to that.]

    There is, however a highly material difference: the OTdoes not mandate a global subjugation of all peoples under Israel, as say we can very reasonably — and backed up by a lot of Islamic history and commentary [not to mention current expectations on what the Mahdi will do] — see from Q 9:5 and 29 ff etc.. The Quran and Hadiths do on credible readings of text and history mandate unlimited militant subjugation under Islamic rule. And that is just what the Islamic authorities nearest in time to the “handing down” set out to do, starting with Mohammed himself.

    I know it is very politically incorrect to point out facts like these, but we have to face facts not duck them. The proverbial ostrich with its head down in the hole makes a tasty lunch I would say! [BTW, real ones are listening out for the approaching enemies, the better to run away in good time or fight back.]

    2] Christianity and Islam are about 800 years old as religions while I think it is Hinduism in it’s purist sense has been around for over 3000

    Go do your research. 2007 – 800 = 1207. Christianity dated to the first several decades of the 1st century, some 2000 years ago. Islam dates to the first several decades of the 7th, some 1400 years ago.

    But we do not tell truth byt he clock. On worldviews, we need to assess across comparative difficulties on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power.

    3] take a look at Numbers 25:10-13. Image if we could be killed in the name of the Lord just for being in an inter-racial marriage?

    Predictably, this is utterly and misleadingly out of context.

    The context is that foreign women were luring the Israelites into fornication and adultery. Even as judgement fell on the nation, a man in front of the congregation went into his tent with one of them. We might not think that fornication or adultery deserves the death penalty today, but this was not death for merely inter-racial marriage.

    Indeed, Moses was married to a woman of essentially the same race. When objection was made to the interracial marriage, God backed him up.

    The remark is slanderously irresponsible and, sadly, tells us a lot about the level of the commenter DFX. Not to his credit.

    4] AGENDA: for the right wing idealogues on here, islam is the number one. kairo focus aka. christian fundamentalist right winger, posts these long one sided irrational tirades about islam. people with small minds, of a lesser intelligence or wanting to promote a certain agenda will readily believe him and shout his praises. if you dont agree with people of this ilk, they attack you, get personal and nasty

    It should be obvious to onlookers that I have raised matters of fact and record and their reasonable implications and concerns.

    It is YOU who have instead resorted to name-calling rhetoric and dismissal without attending to facts and logic. So, you condemn yourself our of your own mouth.

    SHAME ON YOU.

    For the record, I have been careful to note that most muslims are decent ordinary people trying to serve God best as they know how. [Cf here Rom 2:5 – 11, NIV, on the proper Christian view on how God views and treats those who to the best they know how, seek the truth and the right, persistently. FYI, this is most definitely not a RWFC — there, I give you a handy abbreviation for your OFFENSIVE smear word — position, but it is a biblical one.]

    But, there is a problem of IslamIST radicalism, and unfortunately it has serious roots in foundational issues, texts and history of Islam. That is the context where in the next thread on Saudi texts in schools I have pointed tot he need for a reformation that will deal with the problems as there has been about 500 years of reform in Christianity. [And note my remarks on the former slave Equiano in rebuking NOMINAL Christians.]

    For the further record, I hold that IslamISM is only the No 2 external threat to our region. Number one is the tidal wave of corruption rushing down into our region from the North, i.e from the post-Christian West. And the no one global threat to our region is — US, as we increasingly seek to build our house without God. Cf Ps 127:1 for the predictable result.

    5] BM: Hearing

    The context for the relevant “hearing” is the comparison with the Danish cartoons controversy. There is no global repudiation, there is no public protest. That is telling ands sad. (Just think of the public outpouring and protest had some RWFC group went into a mosque in Chicago and trussed up then cut the throats of three of its employees. It is indubitable that the leading churchmen of the USA would lead in the protest and that it would be public and massive.)

    And that is before we get to the issues mentioned and/or linked above.

    GEM of TKI

  52. Note:

    Response under the right of reply awaits moderation. (I suspect because it has several links in it.)

    Kindly observe that it is AGENDA who has resorted to personalities, not me. An examination of the thread and of others will show that I have laid out facts, raised implications and issues, then have made fair comment.

    That is well within the ambit of civil dialogue.

    GEM of TKI

  53. Equals

    Not two weeks ago the Islamic community of Barbados brought a hard-liner, Salafi Manhaj, to espouse a violent, fundamentalist line of Islam.

    https://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2007/02/09/should-barbados-allow-saudi-arabia-to-fund-local-mosques-and-islamic-schools/#comment-34925

    Now we see a double-take by Bajan Muslim in damage control. All in the space of a couple of weeks.

    One is fundamentalist, the other is still fundamentalist with a (possible) view towards attempting to persuade of peaceful tendancy. Extremely skeptical.

    The Saudi Salafis are pouring money into countries including Barbados, building mosques and schools, providing arabic books that teach the JIHAD, shariah and other things, some of which have been exposed to be racist. BFP has asked if these books are here, but you have not replied or justified these, so it is true.

    The Salafi view and teachings are in concert with the establishment of the World Islamic Caliphate. For those of you who have never heard about it, that is when Islam rules the world. Saudi establised this mode of thinking in the mid-1980s and is working hard towards it.

    At that time, Shariah law will supercede all local laws, and then the law of Islam (shariah) will rule.

    Which is not what many people in democratic countries wish.

    Quote: “……….2) The second reason for the prohibition of these barbaric acts is that under no circumstances are Muslims allowed to attack women, children, the old and the meek, the sick, and those that are worshipping. Even in the midst of a war, the Muslim army is ordered to avoid killing women and children…….”

    However, under Shariah, women will only have shariah rights. This is not equal rights, and our women have already told you they do not accept it.

    Also, are the Janjaweed Muslims, or not?

    Quote:”………….3) Thirdly, Islam places a great deal of emphasis on preserving and protecting the wealth of human beings to the point that the Messenger of Islam (may Allah bless him & give him peace) safeguarded the wealth of non-Muslims even in the midst of a war………”

    Under Shariah law Muslims have higher rights than non-Muslims. This is completely unfair and undemocratic.

    Misery upon those until they convert to Islam (and by the way, tough luck, we warned you to convert). Dhimmis are taxed differently, and are treated as non-equals in the Shariah courts, like women are treated.

    Darfur Janjaweed finshed with the non-Muslims, and moved on to Muslims! Still cannot stop them!

    Quote: “…….Upon being directed towards the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), he inquired about the basic teachings of Islam, and then said: “What will my status be if I accept Islam?” The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) replied: “I will embrace you, you will become my brother and enjoy the same rights as other Muslims………”

    Well…..if you don’t convert and embrace, I am sorry for you….. no equal rights against me, and you will be real sorry that you didn’t convert for the rest of your life, dhimmi.

    Bajan Muslim, please don’t preach on BFP. Go and preach to the local Muslims, get Saudi fundamentalism out of Barbados, and stop trying to justify this Salafi shariah thing, outreaching for conversion.

    Take BFP and preach it to the local Muslim community!

    The duel speak coming out of Bajan Muslims on BFP over the past weeks is exposed for what it is- double speak.

    The world’s non-Muslims don’t wish to convert to Islam, or be subjected to the inequalities of the Shariah. And that is most respectfully said, not revilingly in the least.

    Peace.

  54. DFX

    Kairosfocus or should I say out of focus,

    I was pointing out to Robert that it depends the spin a reader wants to put on what is printed in the book he is reading. I never said this was my opinion did I? May I then say that you comment only goes to show up your true colours or maybe ignorance of what was written by me. (please note that ignorance is defined as a lack of knowledge on a subject, stupidity is having the knowledge and still getting it wrong), But I don’t wish to drop to the level of personal insults now do I?

    Go in Peace and Serve the Lord! And may Peace and UNDERSTANDING follow you all the days of your life!

    To often “Christians” like to get up and spew that it is only the Bible way or the Hell way. And testify like above. When you do that are you not in the same boat as the Islamic Extremists? Read what I have written and you will (hopefully) see that I have neither praised nor cried down either Christianity or Islam. I simply think that we all have the RIGHT to worship how we please. If we are right we go to heaven and everything is perfect and we get 70 virgins to boot. If we are wrong? We go to Hell and face an awful Doom. Or maybe we are re-incarnated and we get a chance to try again. Or maybe we just become worm food. I don’t know the answer for sure. But I choose to believe in a Great Being. He knows what is in My Heart, HE WILL JUDGE ME! NOT YOU! IF I CHOOSE TO CALL GOD OR ALLAH THAT IS MY BUSINESS NOT YOURS! JUDGE NOT LESS YE BE JUDGED! Read that somewhere can’t quite remember where right now maybe you can look it up for me.

    roglmao but in focus

    DFX

    **********************

    Comment By BFP Robert

    When we see gangs of Baptist ministers hijacking planeloads full of families and murdering them all while shouting “Praise Jesus”… then I’ll talk to you about the contemporary equality of Islam and Christianity.

  55. Equals

    DFX seems to have a superiority complex. He thinks everyone is studying HIM! Such knowledge, logic.

  56. DFX

    More Judges LOL

    I don’t think anybody is studying me. If so my Allah help them. I just don’t like people to twist my words. so if the Equals a superiority complex more power to me. Out-a-focus don’t pay my bills, Equals don’t pay my bills so that equals IDGAFF what you have to say. But I guess you must be another misguided bible thumper to attack me personally so I say to you! May God Bless you and keep you and grant you understanding!

    Later people

    DFX

  57. DFX

    By the way, anybody want to take a bet that it is NOT a Muslim that is leaving bodies all over this island? 3 Bodies in less than 2 weeks?

  58. Equals

    I agree with that kairosfocus says. You appear an angry illogical post- of little substance- in this case.

  59. DFX

    OK Equals lets use some logic here today.

    Lets starts with the Bible. Genesis is a good start.

    And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image…. So God created man in his own image. Genesis 1:25-27
    So God created Man AFTER the animals

    And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. Genesis 2:18-19

    Wait a minute.. God created man before the animals? HMMM I wonder which was it?

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27
    Man and woman created together.

    And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them. Genesis 2:18-22

    Hang on, Man, then beast and then woman.

    So the Bible seems so contradict itself by the 22nd verse of the 2nd chapter in it’s very first book. Man that is too funny.

    And yet we have founded a religion on it.

    Angry? Heck no, amused. I will never get angry at you for your views. I will get upset if you attack me personally. I know my Bible and I know it’s contradictions and there are about 380 of them if memory serves me right. But I choose to accept that it’s book written years ago by people hundreds of years AFTER the fact. The fact that many of the stories are common across the Koran, the Bible and the Torah (or however you spell it) makes me think that they are mostly true.

    I think the Bible is a guide, not a book of laws. That is where I differ from some of my Muslim friends also, I also view the Koran as a guide, some view it as the law. But maybe it depends on how deep your faith is.

    So Equals could you please help me as to why Gen 1:25-27 does not equal Gen 2:18-19 and why Gen 1:27 does not equal Gen 2:18-22? And yes I cleaned my glasses and I was able to focus perfectly on my Study Bible (bet ya didn’t think I had one of them, it’s even so well used the pages are falling out, but over the years it has been a good friend)

    Peace be on to you and yours

    DFX

  60. agenda

    Equals, your comments prove how totally ignorant you are about muslims in barbados. muslims in barbados who are largely of indian descent do not follow the salafi school of thought. the two groups actually regard each other as heretics! if 2 people come onto this blog and posts entries how can you claim they are speaking on behalf of the muslims in bim? are you speaking on behalf of a group of bajans? u say the saudis provide arabic books that teach about jihad etc. what a load of rubbish. the indian muslims dont even speak arabic. they merely are able to read the arabic letters and use arabic to only read their quran. but u know everything and u speak with great authority!
    kairofocus, your views and the picture you paint of this great islamic monolith just waiting to destroy the west is synonomous with the fear mongering works of right wing idealogues in the west. i am an agnostic and i would prefer to see a world with no religion but i accept that the world we live in is diverse and full of all sorts of people. i take the time to read and i do know that islam is not a monolithic element. islam has numerous schools of thought and varying interpretations of the quran. the rhetoric about muslims not condemning terrorism is also false. i have personally read a number of islamic fatwas and documents released by umbrella muslim organisations in the the us and europe which categorically denounced any acts of terrorism and stated that muslims carrying out acts of terror would go to hell. as for the normal muslim on the street going about his business and trying to earn a living like everyone else, why is he responsible for bin laden? i would be very uncomfortable with people making me responsible for actions of someone else just because they share my nationality or race or if i followed a religion, my faith. right wing idealogues view the world through a narrow lens and refuse to acknowledge anything that doesnt fit into their little box. much of what is happening in the world today is also about politics and economics and not just about religion. but it doesnt suit you to speak about the complex global environment we live in. its easier to talk about a bogeyman and keep people scared.

  61. DFX

    Thank you Agenda for restoring my faith in this place.

    Well put! But watch out, it seems open mind EQUALS bad boy in here today.

  62. Equals

    Do you have the Saudi books?

    Have you received the Saudi funds?

    Yes or no.

  63. Equals

    And by “you” I am being broad- I am referring to the community in Barbados. I am not asking you personally.

  64. DFX

    Comment By BFP Robert

    When we see gangs of Baptist ministers hijacking planeloads full of families and murdering them all while shouting “Praise Jesus”… then I’ll talk to you about the contemporary equality of Islam and Christianity.

    Does poisoning 900 people in a jungle in Guyana after killing a US Senator count? Just asking.

    How is Vista coming along? Did 5 installs this week oldest machine being a 3 year old ASUS based homebuilt for a friend of mine whose XP had crashed hopelessly. I can give you a hand for free anytime you like (you my email address) And I promise not to install the Islamic version 😉 LOL

    DFX

    **************

    Comment by Robert

    DFX says

    “Does poisoning 900 people in a jungle in Guyana after killing a US Senator count? Just asking.”

    No it doesn’t count, DFX, unless you can show me millions of Christians dancing in the streets who will back YOU up that the actions of a madman were somehow “Christian”. Contrast that with millions of Muslims around the world dancing in the streets, handing out candy and celebrating the murders of 9/11 as being pleasing to Allah and in keeping with the Koran.

    In the suburb of Detroit where I was on 9/11, thousands of Muslims were out on the streets banging pots and pans in celebration of the murders. Thousands.

    It took about 6 hours before the backlash started and some “leaders” decided that wasn’t such a good idea.

    Once again, there is zero equivalency between the contemporary actions and religious beliefs of Christians and Muslims. Your having to talk about a madman Jim Jones is pathetic and underscores the absurdity of your argument. As IF his actions were Christian and supported worldwide (or anywhere) by Christians.

    Pathetic.

    Now let’s talk about the mutilation and enslavement of millions of Muslim women worldwide. Or the execution or whipping of Christians in Saudi Arabia for simple possession of a bible or for praying in private in their own homes. Or that the penalty for leaving the Muslim religion is death.

    Some folks are sure blind, and you are one of them.

  65. DFX

    Finally the lights have come on. Jim Jones was a madman. I 100% agree with you. But guess what. Bin Laden is a bigger madman. I cannot blame EVERY muslim for him. Nor can I blame EVERY christian for Jim Jones. But I cannot and will not go around fearing every person because his skin is darker than mine and his hair is straight but thicker so he must be a muslim and wants to kill me. I am trully sorry I don’t belong to the perfect Christianity you seem to belong to. The one I belong to has priests molesting young girls, priests sueing the church cause they don’t think they should retire and give another priest a chance, priests molesting young boys and getting sued years later. No Robert EVERY MUSLIM IS NOT EVIL. I am think 9/11 was a cowardly act, I was not in the US when it happened but when I saw the clips of people dancing in the streets, rejoicing over I could only think what sick bastards and wonder if they could be filming it why not be bombing it too. But I have very close Muslim friends who were equally disgusted at what happened. And they lived in fear for months and months after.

    Because a black man broke into a friend of mines house and raped his 12yr old daughter should he hate all black men? And trust me if it was your 12 yr old daughter you would be more upset than if it was an A380 that went down. But the answer is NO! The actions of one man or a handfull of men should not cloud you opinion of all people of that race or religion. If it does then you are blinded by hate. But trust me I see very clearly.

    Don’t think that I agree with any of the mutilation of women or the lack of freedom of religion, I don’t. That is why I cannot support not letting a Muslim worship as he pleases. If I do I have become just like “them”.

    But tell you what. I’ll go on treating everybody with respect until they do me wrong, you can go on hating Muslims for chosing to be Muslims. I’m sure it will make the world a much better place.

    Peace be on to you

    DFX

  66. Bajan Muslim

    I have exams goin on right now so cant say much

    DFX you made some good comments.

    I have learnt all my Islam in Barbados and I did not learn from any ‘arabic saudi
    books teaching jihad’ nor any books that are ‘racist’. I am also interested to know how much money the ‘Saudi Salafis’ are pouring into Barbados.

    Please show me which ‘arabic saudi salafi’ books are being thought in Barbados, and how much money ‘Saudi Salafis’ pour into Barbados. Show me which schools they built.

    Quote: “The duel speak coming out of Bajan Muslims on BFP over the past weeks is exposed for what it is- double speak. ”

    I just happened to came across this webiste a couple days ago while searching google for something. I have no idea who Salafi Manhaj is, nor if any other Muslims are on this website.

  67. agenda

    dfx, as i said before, it is pointless arguing with right wing evangelicals, fundamentalist and idealogues. they view everything through a narrow prism and anything that doesnt fit into their little box is attacked. it is a simple formala they use. paint a picture of an “other”, a bogey man who wants to destroy us. create myths, exaggerations and distort fact. mix it with christian fundamentalism and evangelical fervour. keep spouting the diatribe and propaganda and anyone who is gullible will buy into it. i refuse to take a billion of the earth’s people and paint them with one stroke. bigots like bfp and kairofocus like to talk about islamic extremism but they spew out the same hate and try to make it sound polished with flimsy arguments and quotes. i am just grateful that most of my fellow bajans don’t buy into their agenda.

  68. agenda

    the right wing idealogues like to paint this picture of an islamic monolith whose sole aim is to destroy the west. have any of you travelled throughout the muslim world? have you any muslim friends? have you read the thousands and thousands of books that make up diverse and centuries old islamic scholarship? i doubt very much. most of your information, quotes and links are to right wing evangelical sites. people who engage in the same hate filled diatribe.

  69. agenda

    bfp robert,

    i emailed two close friends of mine who live in detroit about your claim that thousands of muslims there were out in the street after 9/11 celebrating. none of them observed this. what they did say was that there were candlelight vigils in honour of the victims. and before you accuse them of being muslims hiding the truth, one is buddist and the other athiest.

    it seems as if you are engaging in the usual right wing ploy of creating myths and distorting truth.

    you constantly go on about muslims not doing anything about terrorism. firstly, how can you blame the members of one faith for the actions of a deviant minority. and dont come with your ridiculous figure of 5% of a billion. its to use your words pathetic. secondly why don’t you acknowledge that muslim organisations and leaders all over the world have spoken out and issued religious rulings about terrorism. even a group of saudi clerics issued one saying muslims who carried out terrorist acts were destined to hell.

    obviously in your world view, people like me who dont care for religion and religious fundamentalists of any faith are bound to hell also! christian evangelicals are after all fond of the fire and brimstone school of thought and like to tell anyone who doesnt agree with their version of christianity that they will suffer the wrath of god.

  70. agenda

    ok i guess this will be my last post. the last time i was censored! i guess bfp only likes open dialogue when people are not challenging their world view or right wing diatribe. so dfx if i dont see you on here again take care.

    salafi manhaj, get a life. u r just as pathetic as bfp.

    barbados muslim, lighten up and go out- its friday- and have some fun. bfp and your fellow right wing idealogues, u should do same!

  71. H’mm:

    A further comment is required:

    1] DFX: “I was pointing out to Robert that it depends the spin a reader wants to put on what is printed in the book he is reading. I never said this was my opinion did I?”

    Once you cite without comment or assert without distancing [i.e with implicit approval] it is fair to infer that it is your opinion not just that of another.

    Second, your remarks were sufficiently general to rake in my own earlier citations of the Quran and allusions to Hadiths and Sharia. Thus, I am “damaged” and have a right of reply. This I took up, evidently successfully on the merits, thus your resort to toddler level name-twisting.

    2] “To often “Christians” like to get up and spew that it is only the Bible way or the Hell way.”

    But, just what is the Bible way? And just what is the Hell-way?

    Rom 2 v 5 to 11 answers:

    Bible way: ” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he [God] will give eternal life.” [That is are you living by the light of truth and morality you have; including penitence when you stumble and persistence in the path of good?]

    Hell-way: “8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger” [That is, the above implies that you live by the light of the truth you know or should know, and by the right that you know or should know; this includes penitence and persistence in the good. So, if one is selfish, rejects truth improperly and walks in evil, s/he is on the hell way. And, just what truth about God is it that one living in early C21 Barbados knows or should know but maybe is not living up to . . .?]

    –> Cf Locke, Section 5 in his intro to his Essay on Human Understanding on this. Especially:

    “How short soever [our] knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 – 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of [our] Maker, and the sight of [our] own duties [cf Rom 1 – 2, Ac 17, etc, etc] . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 – 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . ” [Bracketed notes added]

    3] “Wait a minute . . . HMMM I wonder which was it?”

    Basic reading: F.

    The second text nowhere implies [logically necessitates] that man was created before the animals, it only summarises the previous. Similarly, ont he man-woman creation account.

    The contradiction is being read into the text — again and again.

    For those with serious issues on Bible difficulties, I suggest that you look at Gleason Archer’s Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties as a good start-point. You can probably order it through CLC, nearish to HC.

    And BTW, DFX, there are no serious worldviews without difficulties, the issue is to compare difficulties and choose on a best explanation basis. That is the underlying method of philosophy; as I have lectured on to degree-level students, who just happen to have been evangelicals, at the invitation of the leadership of the leading Evangelical seminary in the Caribbean. [So much for the narrowmindedness assertions and prejudices in this thread . . .]

    4] Agenda: “your views and the picture you paint of this great islamic monolith just waiting to destroy the west is synonomous with the fear mongering works of right wing idealogues in the west.”

    I have not spoken of a great Islamic monolith, but of foundational examples, teachings, text, law, and history; which unfortunately for the world is being brought out by a core of committed, powerful, oil-funded radicals today.

    The usual estimates for these are 10 – 15 percent [e.g the 10% is from a Saudi Prince], which on a base of over 1 bn, gives us 100 – 150 millions, more than all the actual communists and nazis combined. In the case of Iran, with 70 mn pop, the Islamists would lose a free and fair election, were one held tomorrow. But that did not happen and will not happen if the Islamists can help it: there is a Council of Guardians who weed out any truly moderate candidates [was it 1,000 last time around?] so we end up with a Mr Ahmadinejad. And, with his holocaust denial, and declarations of intent to finish the job started by Hitler. And his nuke programme and ballistic missile programme to give teeth to the threats.

    If you look at official Iranian web sites [in English!] — As I have — you will see that they are currently teaching that the Mahdi’s emergence will “soon” lead to global subjugation under Islam. They couch it in fancy phrases but that is what it means. As one of nearly 300 K signatures that saved a young girl who defended herself and her niece from four would be rapists only to be accused of murder and nearly hanged, I think that too often such “Islamic Justice” as is being practised is the opposite of real justice.

    So if I have objections to British injustice that hanged my grandmother’s great uncle for doing social work and standing up for the starving peasants of Jamaica in the 1860s, I have to be consistent when I see the same games being played out over in Iran. I want freedom and justice, not to swop one form of injustice and oppression for another. And that is exactly the same objection I made to the Marxists in the 1970’s and 80s. It is the same objection that I make to the radically relativist, post-modern West that is rapidly undermining the only successful base for a civilisation that has any hope of sustainably moving towards freedom and justice for all.

    On IslamISM [radicalised, ideological Islam that takes back up the classic global subjugation project of Q 9:5 and 29 etc], we can multiply examples from Indonesia to Nigeria to Sudan to Trinidad. The examples cut across specific sectarian lines in Islam, and they go back to the core things I have summarised. And, on Wahhabism, the Saudis are funding their madrassas and texts and mosques tot he tune of US $ 5 bn per year, on an average estimate I have seen from credible sources. That is what radicalised Pakistani Islam, and Indonesian Islam and Nigerian Islam and UK Islam. We have signs that it is radicalising Islam in the Caribbean. Thus the concerns in the BFP.

    It therefore makes no sense for us to bury our heads in the sand.

    So, label/namecall away — namecalling only reveals that you are not addressing the issue on the merits. Indeed, it is a sign that guess who (by empirically demonstrated fact) is the real fear-monger?

    5] Fatwas etc

    The problem is the gap between [1] English and Arabic, and [2] texts and streets. Yes you can now find decrees that label terrorism as bad etc [and which usually cannot resist a “Yes but . . .’] , but the root problems I have highlighted are not being seriously and effectively tackled. And, the ones who are not persuaded within Islam are precisely the 10 – 15% who are the threat.

    Notice too, that I have explicitly identified the core issues, and have pointed to the band of those within the ambit of Islam who are involved in the danger, and I pointed to the core history, texts and foundational patterns, calling for serious reformation. That is not the same thing as to monolithically label all Muslims!

    Onlookers: notice just how predictably the attack to the man surfaces in these tactics that raise the emotional temperature and cloud judgement. it is sound judgement that we Caribbeans most need today if we are to safely navigate the troubles seas ahead.

    6] DFX again: “Does poisoning 900 people in a jungle in Guyana after killing a US Senator count?”

    Here again basic factual homework is not done.

    The “Rev’d” Jimmy Jones was a MARXIST, pseudo-religious cultist who was far from being in any reasonable sense a Christian. Indeed, he tried to leave his money for the benefit of the USSR. (I am trying to avoid too many links, so please google for yourself.)

    The vast majority of the 900, being disarmed, were forcibly poisoned, as, say, Sir Lionel Luckhoo has reported on. (It was the tiny circle of henchmen who had the guns and shot the Congressman and then cowed the majority into drinking the notorious cyanide-laced purple Koolaid. BTW, this is also the fatal flaw in the idea that outlawing guns will lead to peace and safety: the outlaws seldom give a “hoot” over such rules, and have no compunctions on oppressing or murdering helpless victims. Cho over in VT is a classic case in point — one who shot himself rather than face armed police . . .)

    7] Agenda, again: “it is pointless arguing with right wing evangelicals, fundamentalist and idealogues. they view everything through a narrow prism and anything that doesnt fit into their little box is attacked.”

    H’mm, onlookers, let’s see: who is it that on the evidence of this thread, is looking through a narrow prism and attacking people by namecalling them and dismissing them instead of addressing the matter on the merits of fact, logic, implications and associated legitimate concerns? Who is it that then resorts to further namecalling when his rhetorical bluff is called?

    ANS: for the logic-challenged: AGENDA.

    _________

    Onlookers: The balance onthe merits is clear enough,a nd we should see that it is those who don’t have a case on the merits who have resorted above to demonstrably twisted or even false fact claims, and to namecalling paersonal abuse. Let us therefore see Agenda and DFX for what they, sadly, are: distracting trolls, who are here supporting the Islamist damage controllers.

    Then. let us get on with the real matters at stake:

    –> the pomo tidal wave from the north [External threat no 1]

    –> the dangers posed by the radical 10 – 15% of IslamISTS within Islam [external threat no 2] and

    –> the biggest threat of all: US and our region’s want of sober seriousness in the face of an approaching geopolitical hurricane that makes Hugo, Gilbert and Ivan, etc. look like child’s play.

    Time to batten down folks!

    GEM of TKI

  72. Re: DFX, Agenda etc:

    Response on points awaiting moderation. It is an old trick to accuse those who you are about to personally attack etc of doing what you are doing. You have yet to deal with the material issues on the merits, as onlookers can see for themselves.

    Time to stop playing misleading rhetorical games with red herrings and strawmen! (That is, you would fail the essay assignments on the Phil course I link in my response awaiting mod.)

    [Onlookers can easily enough check facts and see who has been seriously engaging on the merits and logic, and who has been namecalling and worse.]

    GEM of TKI

  73. PS: A class of about 30 “fundy dummies” at that evangelical seminary — despite the usual groans on the stiff level of such a course [compulsory for graduation, BTW] — achieved 100% pass on the course, and one earned 100% on the essay; he made a powerful comparison of The Matrix with Gnosticism and with the Cave-world of Plato’s parable. FYI.

  74. Zombie Jamboree

    BFP Robert
    Boy, is a good ting you are anonymous, else yuh head gone wid one chop of the sword and the grizzly details put pun YouTube or Al Jazeera for everybody to see. Stay safe, hear?

  75. Chase

    DFX:

    Now it my turn to give you some advice….you will never get your point across on this forum…..so dont blow a gasket.
    BFP Robert says people were dancing in the streets of Detroit……can anyone confirm this other than him?
    I followed the whole episode of 9/11 and what is a fact is that CNN and other networks immediately showed videos of muslims in the middle east jumping and waving shortly after the tragedies.

    What they didnt say until a few weeks later was that video was old and was actually a demonstration taped 5 years before,this footage was only shown to help create the anger and resentment needed for what was to come next.

    Why cant we have a general discussion on a subject without alll the personal attacks and name calling?……because no one here except DFX,Agenda come to the party with open minds.

  76. Chase

    Hold that Visa tight friend…..with these topics ,if we meet up this weekend …we might drink out some place of beers.

  77. DFX

    Chase,

    I will not blow a gasket over this trust me. I got my Visa in hand and a big-able belly that need some beer to fill it up LOL.

    I only glad that the Evangelists like to use floppy Bibles cause with the licks dey peltin’ at me a hard back one would do too much damage LOL

    Take care my friend

    DFX

  78. Chase

    That is the price you pay for being fair and open my friend,remember when we were at it only to take a step back ,thanks to Patrick and realise we were arguing the same piont from different angles?

    Everyone is set in their own minds but a fair person gives credit where it is due and is not ashamed to admit wrong.Until some people on this blog realise this ,especially the moderators,then this blog will never serve its purpose.

    At least for me it has by letting me come into contact with guys like you and Patrick…hope he is getting better.

    Stay your ground man,fight the good fight as my mum would say.They will attack your character when they cant reach your soul so get a broad back and some beer…..locked my self out of the bedrom so have to go break in my own house…going by Garrisson to take in some horse racing with the CWC crowd at 1pm today …….tell me where and when we could hook up to quench our thirst and have good conversation…..the weekend long.

  79. Lollipop

    Chase somebody pass on your message to Patrick, I think it was Margaret Knight, and you never even have the decency to thank her. You think that was being fair and open, my friend.

  80. Bajan Muslim

    I posted early this morning but I’m not seeing my post

  81. Bajan Muslim

    ok I seeing it now

  82. Chase

    Lollipop:

    Are you stupid!!

    Had I seen the post ,I would have responded.I dont live on this site like most people here..I know within my heart that I mean well when it comes to Patrick so if I missed a post and you think i have no decency because I did not reply or you think it is not fair….then that is a matter for you!!

    Good to see you are like a hound sniffing out people’s shortcomings on this site ….I only hope you dont have any of your own …..

    To Magaret Knight,I did not respond to the post because I did not see it ….but thanks anyway.

    Patrick…I wish you all the best as usual.
    DFX……there is a nice bar at the top of the Gap ..I hear your banks cost less than $2.

  83. DFX

    The contradiction is being read into the text — again and again.

    My GOD it has a brain after all! That is what I have been saying all along. It all depends on the spin you put on what you read. But maybe you are blinded by the glory of the Lord LOL.

    So you have lectured. So what? Is this meant to impress somebody? It sounds like pride to me. One of the seven sins I think.

    You are so blinded by you hate and intolerance of other faiths that you failed to figure out that I have been trying not to support or cry down either faith but to say only through understanding can we co-exist. Because if we don’t you are only going to end up killing each other for NOTHING. Get a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People. The only way to change a man’s mind is to understand his point of view. If you are trying to be an Evangelist by strong arming me into seeing you point; you are a miserable failure!

    But maybe one day you will see true light! You see I know God exists, I have seen his work first hand! A man I had never met had an in-operable tumor. While visiting Puerto Rico, I went to a company to do a job for them and a friend of mine told me he was fasting along with some of the others in the company. At lunch we had a prayer circle in the lunch room and during the prayer session I had vision of a ball breaking up into little peaces and just disappearing. When they took the guy into surgery they found not a trace of the tumor! The doctors had no idea of what had happened. I accepted Jesus as my Saviour 2 days later. So don’t preach down at me. Somehow I thought that one of the greatest gifts that God granted to us was forgiveness! A lesson we need to all learn.

    So Kairo, please, you seem to be a man who knows the Bible and I think your faith is strong, but you are pushing people away by being blind to other opinions. This is 2007, the Inquisition end years ago. Don’t bring it back.

    Hope everybody has a great Heroes Day tomorrow.

    Peace

    DFX

    PS
    Chase,

    You mean the shop opposite David’s? Or the Green one next to Pizza Man Doc? Cause I like them green bottle beers too 😉

  84. DFX:

    It seems a few further correctives are in order, as plainly you refuse to be accountable for your serial blunders:

    1] “My GOD it has a brain after all! That is what I have been saying all along. It all depends on the spin you put on what you read.”

    I think there is such a thing as basic civility, not to mention, basic literacy and a matter that texts do have objective meanings that can be seen on a fair reading. This test, you have failed, twice.

    i] An examination of the cites you made from Genesis and your attempted inference to hopeless contradictions fails the basic literacy test.

    ii] Similarly, you hopelessly muddled Numbers 25, in a context where the very author of the book was married to a woman of the ethnicity in question. (FYI: Neither the OT nor the NT imposes a death sentence on inter-racial marriage. THAT is what you ignorantly and confidently asserted in attempted dismissal.)

    –> When corrected, you have consistently simply moved on to the next case, equally in error.

    2] “You are so blinded by you hate and intolerance of other faiths that you failed to figure out that I have been trying not to support or cry down either faith but to say only through understanding can we co-exist.”

    First, my Muslim [and Hindu, and Buddhist and Mormon and atheist and agnostic . . . ] friends will not recognise this rhetorically loaded caricature. It is, sadly, and plainly, a false projection driven by your own obvious and repeatedly demonstrated contempt for those who are of the traditional Judaeo-Christian worldview.

    As I have linked, worldviews are all laced with difficulties, and one best selects in light of comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. I have engaged that for decades, and can confidently report that holding ideas up to the tests of accuracy, coherence and explanatory power, is not a sign of hate. [Contempt-laced personalities with those who beg to differ, as you have now consistently indulged in for several days, by sharpest contrast, are a sign that there is an underlying hostility warping judgement, as Aristotle waned of in his The Rhetoric, as I discuss in the previously linked on a Phil toolkit.]

    On the main point: only through ACCURATE understanding can we find a path to co-existence.

    Onlookers,

    Observe: DFX has:

    –> Been grossly inaccurate in biblical fact claims

    –> Has yet to address and show where I have been inaccurate on the actual summarised and linked facts and record on the history, texts and foundational examples at the roots of the problem with IslamISM.

    –> Has consistently projected — without evidence — base motivations, want of intelligence, etc etc on me simply because I have not sung off the hymn sheet that dodges the issues I have raised on the foundaitonal core issues that feed the islamISM problem.

    All of this, of course, serves to distract attention from the core issues at stake in the thread.

    Let us return to some of these . . .

    3] From the already linked note on Jihad in the Q and the Hadiths:

    __________

    On page xxiv of his introduction to Bukhari’s Hadith, Dr. M. Khan, the translator (into English) writes, “Then Allah revealed in Sura Bara’at (9) the order to discard (all) the obligations (covenants, etc.) and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the people of the scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizya (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians who do not embrace Islam and are under the protection of an Islamic government) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (9:29). So they (Muslims) were not permitted to abandon ‘the fighting’ against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the possibility of fighting against them.”
    _________

    This is of course a remark by a distinguished Islamic scholar, in the preface to an important Islamic work [one that is very hard for non Muslims to get a hand on, for fairly obvious reasons.]

    It underscores the significance of Q9:5 and 29, which I have already pointed to — a significance tha tis important textually, historically and currently as it is a driving force behind the jihadis.

    We therefore need to seriously face the implications of . . .

    4] Quoting Q 9 again . . .

    Yusuf Ali’s translation this time, with his bracketed comments:

    The Sword verse [5]: “. . . when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them. [YA: “When war becomes inevitable, it must be prosecuted with vigour … The fighting may take the form of slaughter, or capture, or siege, or ambush and other stratagems. But even then there is room for repentance and amendment on the part of the guilty party, and if that takes place, our duty is forgiveness and the establishment of peace. “] For God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.”

    The Verse of Tribute [29]: “”Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [YA: “Jizya = the root meaning is compensation. The derived meaning, which became the technical meaning, was a poll tax levied from those who did not accept Islam, but were willing to live under the protection of Islam, and were thus tacitly willing to submit to its ideals being enforced in the Muslim State, saving only their personal liberty of conscience as regarded themselves … It was an acknowledgment that those whose religion was tolerated would in their turn not interfere with the preaching and progress of Islam … there were exemptions for the poor, for females and children, for slaves and for monks and hermits. Being a tax on able-bodied males of military age, it was in a sense a commutation for military service.”]”

    Those titles are not mine, they are “standard.” Observe again how Dr Khan, reflecting the weight of opinion on the matter of the meaning of these texts as worked out theologically and on the ground across 1400 years, has commented.

    THAT is what we — again — have to face.

    Pretty games with pomo hermeneutics or with ad hominem attacks or with red herrings and strawmen will make but little difference to that, either.

    GEM of TKI

  85. A couple of further notes:

    1] On Pigs and Apes:

    I looked this up:
    –> MEMRI has an interesting trove of analyses of main themes in sermons in major mosques in Saudi Arabia posted online, over many years — with onward links to the originals. In a nutshell: the theme of pigs and apes is, unfortunately, indeed deeply entrenched in theological thought in SA.

    –> For instance, “Sheikh Bandar bin Khalaf Al-‘Utaibi, in a sermon at the Abu Bakr Al-Saddiq mosque in Al-Damam. “Is there any kind of humiliation we have not tasted from the brothers of apes and pigs?!” ”

    –> Again, “Sheikh Mustafa Bin Said Aytim in a sermon given at a mosque in Mecca. “[The nation] has made the offspring of apes and pigs its stars; the hangers-on of the apes and pigs have become the centers of influence and power… The Jews, Christians, and the hypocrites gnaw away at the body of the nation and then carry out raids on it with the knights of the destructive media and with the deadly weapon of globalization…” ”

    –> And again: ” “The current behavior of the brothers of apes and pigs, their treachery, their violation of agreements, and their defilement of places of worship… are connected to their forefathers’ deeds in the early time of Islam. This proves the great similarity between every Jew living today and the Jew living during the dawn of Islam,” stated Sheikh Sa’d bin Abdallah Al-‘Ajameh Al-Ghamdi in a sermon at the Sa’id Al-Jandoul mosque in Al-Taif. . .”

    –> The Quranic roots seem to go back to the themes in, say Q 5:59 – 60: “PICKTHAL: Say: O People of the Scripture! [i.e. Jews and/or Christians] Do ye blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evil-livers? Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.” [Bracketed clarifying note added.]

    It is therefore unsurprising — given the tight control on the substance of sermons in SA — that there would be a question of SA sponsored textbooks making similar assertions. The public of Barbados and the Caribbean are right to be concerned.

    2] A bit more on the fate of the recent martyrs of Turkey.

    If you have a strong stomach, you will find this more detailed report on the Martyrs of Smyrna, Turkey — I deliberately choose the name from Rev 2:8-11 — sad but revealing reading on what hate crimes really look like.

    The root source is “A letter to the Global Church from The Protestant Church of Smyrna.”

    Let us all rise above such barbarity as this letter documents, and emulate the spirit of forgiveness of the widow of one of the victims: “In an act that hit the front pages of the largest newspapers in Turkey, the widow of a martyred Christian told reporters she did not want revenge against the Muslims who killed her husband and two others, according to a new report from Voice of the Martyrs. “Oh God, forgive them for they know not what they do,” she said, agreeing with the words of Christ on Calvary (Luke 23.34), according to a letter Christians in Turkey have written to the worldwide church, a letter released through Voice of the Martyrs.”

    But, let us be plain on the issue of justice: all civilised people must stand up and say a loud, public “NO!” to such horrors — they must never happen again.

    Let us accurately understand the past, act in the now and build a better future.

    I close for now in the theme that so deeply struck me when I first read it in the Advocate News 30 years ago: “For the cause that lacks assistance, ‘gainst the wrongs that need resistance, for the future in the distance, and the good that I can do . . .”

    GEM of TKI

  86. DFX

    It will never sink in will it?

    I was never attempting to be accurate. I was simply trying to point out that ANYBODY can take a book(The Bible or The Koran) and twist it to make a reasonable sounding argument out of it. You took the time to pick it apart, great. How many other people did? For the years that Jim Jones was gathering followers in the US did he not use the Bible? He was a Marxist? So what? It has been said so is Owing and he sure as hell gonna give some poison Koolaid after today. You wait till the real bill for CWC come in.

    You have Islamic countries full of under-educated people who have NOTHING and a guy comes along and twists the Koran through mis-interpretation and suddenly we have a bunch of people wanting to kill. But it could just as easily be the other way around as Jim Jones and other so called Evangelists have proven. (well maybe I should say false prophets).

    You jumped to the conclusion that I was crying down Christianity and the Bible, I never was. You took it upon yourself to attack my character, what a big man you are, a big up lecturer I’m just a simple person who chooses to think that there are good and bad people in the world, but I think we should love them equally. The greatest gift God has given me is forgiveness. You know what I would say to Bin Laden if I met him tomorrow? I FORGIVE YOU! It would knock him off his feet. It would prove who is the bigger man

    But you have again proven to me that you are just as dangerous as any Bin Laden because you are so focused on the destination that you missed the scenery on the trip there. You have proven to me that you are a Christian Extremist and there is no difference between what you are trying to do that what Islam Extremists are preaching ie. intolerance of other faiths.

    I pray for you that you may see the light.

    Not going to waste anymore time on this topic have some beers to drink and this has become rather boring.

    Later

    DFX

    PS

    Chase,

    Drop me an email at godblesskairo@mac.com so we can work out a day to quench our beer thirst. After this topic I thirsty. LOL

  87. DFX

    Kairo,

    Please accept my apology for the “It has a brain” comment; it was typed in a the middle of a heated debate and I must agree was uncalled for. Please accept me sincerest apologies.

    God Bless you, Kairo!

    DFX

  88. BFP

    DFX says…

    “You have Islamic countries full of under-educated people who have NOTHING and a guy comes along and twists the Koran through mis-interpretation and suddenly we have a bunch of people wanting to kill.”

    Hi DFX

    I would invite you to read and listen to what Hirsi Ali says about your statement that people “twist” the Koran.

    Quite the contrary, she says that those who kill are actually being very true to the Koran, and that Islam must have it’s reformation before the killing will stop.

    Please read and listen to her at…

    https://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2007/02/11/infidel-author-ayaan-hirsi-ali-tells-it-like-it-is-barbados-considers-what-she-says/

  89. DFX

    BFP,

    I had watched that before. And my question is how will this reformation come about? When people are better educated maybe? We are supposed to have 98% literacy here in B’dos, among the best educated countries in the world, yet we 1 man pull the wool over our eyes for 13 yrs. How can people who have very little education be expected to do better? We will not solve this problem by attacking people.

    While I understand what she is saying, alot of those same people are stick very true to the Koran they have been taught by Extremists. I’m not making any excuse for them, but every religion has had it’s dark days due to people who are over zealous, how many innocent women were tortured in Salem?

    Maybe we really need ET to come back and ban all religions to achieve world peace LOL.

    In the mean time I’m going to keep all of my friends and I take a leaf out of Charlie Tremendous Jones’ book. I’m going to hug everybody I meet (still not sure if I’m going to say I love them yet) Have you ever met him? Awesome guy, was really weird to have a guy you have never met just walk up to you, introduce himself hug you and tell he loves you. But, boy did it make me feel really good after!

    Peace

    DFX

    ***************

    comment by bfp Robert

    Hey DFX

    Once again you go back hundreds of years for behaviour that no one would call Christian. Hirsi’s point is that the Koran is very much a source of the trouble. It is quite a different book than the New Testament, you know.

    One can obey the New Testament word for word and do no evil. If one obeys the Koran word for word they do know evil.

  90. Chase

    Geeez DFX,

    I was out all day ,just read your post,please stop trying to get these people to see the true light.

    BFP already has their mind made up when it comes to Muslims.

    The other idiot who professes to be a lecturer also has his/her agenda.

    AS Bob Marley said …if I was educated ,I would be a damn fool.

    This lecturer is just playing with words but in the end says nothing to the point you are making.This person really likes to read his own words,this give him/her a sense of superiority as we look like ignorant wretches to this person.

    Ignore this ‘educated’ clown…we get your point.

    will hook up with you later as it has been a long day .Reggae on the hill later.Maybe for the next bank holiday……the place I meant is on the right before Cafe Jungles btw.

  91. Rumplestilskin

    People see what they want to see and use what they want to use for their purposes.

    Power, greed, hatred.

    By the way, did you know Hitler actually had built a ‘star chamber’ designed from readings in the Bible, which he thought would give him strength from God?

  92. A follow up:

    Overnight, I had some thoughts that I need to remark on the common perception that Bible-believing Christians are likely to implement an “inquisition,” as DFX indulges himself on above. For, even though this is — as usual — a distractor, it appeals to a commonly promoted perception that biblical religion is an inherent enemy of liberty and justice.

    On the way, I observed an apology, so first things first:

    1] DFX: Apology on “It has a brain . . .”

    Accepted.

    Perhaps, a closer look at what has actually been said [and NOT said] by Robert, others and myself above, will show that our concerns and points are by and large rooted in a serious study of relevant facts beyond the drumbeat of the headlines; not on ignorant fantasies, closed-mindedness and blind prejudices — much less foaming- at- the- mouth hostility to Muslims as people.

    (Observe, for instance, my last remarks just above on the sad incident in Turkey [showing the currency of the threat of violence], and on the underlying trends and roots of the “apes and pigs” claim — and where it leads in light of Q 9:5 and 29 ff. and associated weight of Islamic theological opinion and resulting history. We have to face facts, and help Ms Ali and others like her in seeking for serious reform within Islam. I trust that in God’s grace, the widow’s words will have a beneficial impact.)

    I think we need to now turn to . . .

    2] The “Inquisition” etc. Blood Libel

    On a point of balance here, we need to first note that the most notorious promoters of such claims are those who are deeply influenced by the secularist, neo-pagan and related modernist thinking that in the hands of those who held power over the past 100 years, was responsible for well over 100 millions dead under unjust circumstances, by Prof Rommel’s count.

    In short, as Oxford University professor [and Evangelical Christian Theologian-Philosopher] Alister McGrath noted in rebuttal to Dawkins’ latest promotion of the libel, “All ideals – divine, transcendent, human, or invented – are capable of being abused. That’s just the way human nature is. And knowing this, we need to work out what to do about it, rather than lashing out uncritically at religion.”

    So, let us put things in proper perspective.

    Where to start? Well, let’s begin at the Judaeo- part of “Judaeo-Christian.” The Jewish Bible, the Tanakh, is of course the same as the Protestant OT, just differently [and more logically!] arranged. The same OT that admittedly has its moments of violence and war, and raises some concerns.

    Note: for many centuries, religious Jews following the Tanakh have simply not been enemies of liberty and justice. (And indeed, in the sole Jewish nation in the world, religious Jews as a whole or in any material part are precisely not noted for violent fanaticism.) That should tell us something about the core morality and message of OT-anchored Judaism and how it affects civil society.

    The same core morality of neighbour-love that in Rom 2, Paul anchors as implanted in the normally functioning human conscience and mind. Indeed, in Rom 13:1 – 10, he goes on to point out that not only is the civil authority God’s servant to do us good and defend justice, but also that citizenship is anchored on the same principle of neighbour-love that does no harm.

    He explicitly observes that the principles in the decalogue on respect for life, property, truth, reputation etc are based on the no-harm principle. That is why the 10 commandments and the associated principle of neighbour-love are vital to any society that promotes liberty and justice. And, it is why anyone who abuses the Bible to harm his neighbour is wrong and unbiblical, period.

    3] What about Bible-toting Christians . . . ?

    Observe a related but often overlooked historical fact: the very same people who led the Inquisition banned the translation and putting of the Bible in the hands of the ordinary man. (For, they feared what they imagined would result from the Protestand Reformation’s insistence on putting the Bible into the hands of the ordinary man. As late as 1536, a Bible translator [into English] — Tyndale — was burned at the stake in Belgium!)

    As I document here and here, the actual — though today too often unrecognised or even denied — result was that once the Bible was in the hands of the ordinary man in his native language, and as he began to think through the implications of biblical principles for civil society, this energised centuries of liberation struggle and empowerment. This process still continues: Bible-believing, Bible-living Jews and Christians are the best citizens any country gets.

    Of course, such Bible-hearted people are enemies of licence, libertinism and amorality, but that is a very different thing from being enemies of liberty and justice.

    This blood libel — and all its kin — should be withdrawn.

    Cheerio

    GEM of TKI

  93. H’mm:

    Responded on points, it “vanished.” [Hope it makes it eventually.]

    I repeat: apology accepted. I trust there will be some recognition that the points above are not motivated by blind hostility but by research a bit beyond the headlines, and by concern to avert serious trouble that is ahead on the “business as usual” track.

    And, those who promote the concept that the Bible-rooted faith is an inherent enemy of liberty and justice need to do a bit of history homework, on the fact that OT-based Jews and Bible based Christians are often to be found in the lists as friends of liberty and justice for all. For the core principle of biblical morality is that neighbour-love does no harm. So, harming and oppressing people is opposed to the Bible.

    Indeed, it is worth noting that the Inquisition banned the Bible and persecuted or even killed those who translated, published and possessed it. [Look up the story of William Tyndale.]

    GEM of TKI

  94. Finally;

    It’s worth excerpting from the link to the Fox News interview with Hannity and Colmes:
    _________

    Colmes: Is that correct? Why must those who misuse the faith because they are radicals, and may not even be observing the faith as its meant to be observed, dictate your own faith?

    Ali: I’m afraid that’s not the truth. I’m afraid the Islamic faith has not gone through the reformation and through enlightenment and that it is the faith – that is as it is. I, after Bin Laden, after nine eleven I started to download the documents of Bin Laden and I started to hold them up against the Koran and Hadith…

    Colmes: But is that [bin Ladenism, etc.] true Islam?

    Ali: Yes. I was shocked to discover that was true Islam.

    But that doesn’t have to mean the end of Islam. What Muslims can do is not renounce Islam like I have done. [Which under Sharia etc. puts her under sentence of death as a traitor to Islam] I mean that was just for private reasons, but what they can do is acknowledge that what Bin Laden is saying is correct, but that belongs to the seventh and eighth century and not in the twenty-first century.

    Colmes: But at one point four billion people, I mean I find it very pessimistic, around that number who practice Islam in the world today. Are you suggesting that all those people are radicals or believe what Bin Laden claims Islam is? Don’t most of those people want a peaceful world?

    Ali: I’m not saying that all of them are radicals. I’m saying Muslims are varied, but I’m saying that Islam has as its basic tenants, um, elements that are not compatible with liberal democracy – and that if you want to wage war against non-Muslims, in this case the West, that you will find enough ammunition within Islam. But Muslims are varied and can be presuaded otherwise…
    __________

    I trust Chase and Rumpel can see that I am not just in love with the sound of my voice or my clicking keyboard here — again a revealing dismissive resort to a red herring, strawman and ad hominem, instead of addressing the substance on the table. (Only, now that I have said enough about myself that I cannot be dismissed as an idiot and ignoramus, the grounds for attacking the man are shifting. Time to climb out of Plato’s “comfortable” Cave, folks!)

    Onlookers, ask yourselves: who is looking at the substance on the table, and who is trying to brush aside inconvenient facts and legitimate concerns?

    GEM of TKI

    PS: Ms Ali is under armed guard at all times — guess why? And guess why the man who made a movie version of her story was murdered by an IslamIST thug in Holland of all high-tolerance places.

  95. DFX

    But look at what happened in here when something gets mis-interpreted. This was better than Nat Geo’s Shark Week feeding Frenzies.

    https://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/carlos-r-todd-barbados-native-appointed-president-of-american-association-of-anger-management-providers/#comments

    Here is a classic example of what I’m trying to point out. One person says/writes something and all hell breaks loose. I’m not trying to justify any actions by any religion or sect, just pointing out that crowd mentality is a very powerful and dangerous weapon.

    Thanks for the laugh.

    Kairo, hope you and your family had a blessed Sunday. I did not mean to offend you in anyway, I was trying to make the point that we all have to be careful on how we react to things that are said/written. This whole Carlos Todd thing is a good example. Keep the faith and thanks again for the debate.

    God Bless

    DFX

  96. Anonymous

    kill all religions before they kill you?

  97. DFX et al:

    I looked back overnight, having had to spend S afternoon on PC troubleshooting with a friendly tech who is a real blessing; thank God for such. Even net access this wee-hours is a bit of a lash-up — something was blocking
    DSL access, not sure what just yet . . .

    Anyway, enough on the PC headaches.

    1] DFX: “One person says/writes something and all hell breaks loose. I’m not trying to justify any actions by any religion or sect”

    What I am pointing to is something important. Yes, one may wrench and distort, but that does not obviate the fact that in texts we routinely and properly address objectivity in meaning — as no less than Daniel Dennett observes that Rorty acknowledges. (Cf my linked on Pomo.)

    For instance, were I to “interpret” you as saying something truly weird and defamatory based on my idiosyncratic “reading” of your text above, you would sharply and properly protest.

    That is precisely not what is at work here — on Q 9:5, 29, 5:59 – 60 etc, we are dealing with the foundational texts, classic understandings of same and the well-documented, abundantly evident (but now routinely ignored or “forgotten” or even suppressed) history that flowed therefrom.

    On the strength of that, Ms Ali and others are calling for serious reform of Islam from within. Though I have my doubts that absent sharp and devastating defeat in the ongoing World War 4 [WW 3, objectively being the so-called “Cold War” that nearly got hot enough to wipe us all out more than once] the IslamISTS will not reform, I wish Ms Ali etc well.

    At the same time, precisely because of those reasonable doubts and associated underlying issues, we Caribbeans need to be aware that the murderous militancy we see is not just a fringe/ “distortion”/ “hijacking” issue in Islam, but something that traces to its founding era and texts and the implications that have worked out across 1400 years.

    Observe, the current silence of the Islamist Dawah advocates in this thread — they are monitoring (believe you me on that!) but remain silent as the facts accessible to an informed person are not in their favour, so ignoring is the best damage control strategy, as they hope that the deep divisions in the West will distract from the root issue. That is just what has begun to happen: misperceptions over immoral equivalency between Biblical religions and Islamism, and deep-rooted hostility to Bible-believing Christians has indeed surfaced and measurably diverted the focus of the thread.

    Just to illustrate, on what basis was the torture-murder of the three church workers at a Bible publishers in Smyrna, Turkey — which has had Christians since about 50 – 60 AD — justified by the Islamists? Why is it that there is not a massive spontaneous global wave of revulsion and denunciation on this in the Muslim world? Why is it that the pomo secularised West, with its vaunted respect for human rights, largely silent as well?

    A further case in point . . .

    2] Rumpel: “By the way, did you know Hitler actually had built a ’star chamber’ designed from readings in the Bible, which he thought would give him strength from God?”

    Now, what is the relevance of this to the discussion of how Islamists “justify” murder, and the issue of the possibility of Saudi-funded Textbooks calling Jews and Christians pigs and apes — thus feeding into a psychology of hate, demonisation and dehumanisation that predictably would lead a small but significant minority to murderous militancy — being in use in Madrassas in Barbados?

    None, save to reveal Rumpel’s own, inner deep-rooted hostility to biblical religion — and attitude that lurks in all too many resentful many hearts in our very own Caribbean. For, what is being asserted — without the kind of citation that such an explosive, potentially slanderous accusation demands — is that Hitler, using the Bible adn seeking God’s blessing and protection, was able to “justify” setting up oppressive and unjust courts that carried out injustice. Thus, by a standard rhetorical dirty trick [guilt by association], Evangelical Christian faith in the Caribbean is tarred with the brush of Nazism: the suggestion being, who knows what those weirdos can be cooking up in their churches?

    ANS: this is a classic unjustified and uncivil invidious comparison, done in the full knowledge that Nazism is in the contemporary West, the ultimate public example of evil, so anything linked to it is tarred with that indelible stain of evil. Such and accusation without solid, stated and referenced, evidence, is outrageous.

    I therefore respond, pointing out that the evidence does not establish such an accusation:

    –> Hitler was anything but a Bible-believing Christian. His worldview was shaped by Blavatsky’s Aryan-man myth [i.e. spiritualism and occultism], was further influenced by the Haekel-derived chain of social darwinism that pervaded German culture at that time,and sadly has its roots in Darwin’s The Descent of Man, esp Chs 5 – 6 [all that stuff about the Irish vs the Scots and the Saxons, and on how in the not then distant future the more civilised races would eliminate the less advanced ones and the more advanced apes so the gap between man and monkey would then widen . . . all without compunction or qualms].

    –> Hostility to Jews — “the apple of God’s eye” [a Bible cite!] — is a deep rebellion against God and the scriptures. [I would give cites but that WordPress filter does not like Bible references.]

    –> As Shakespeare pointed out, in his classic “devil quoting scripture” evil men twist the scriptures to trick the ignorant unstable and unwary, but that hardly can be laid at the door of the Bible; which BTW warns against just this, and gives instructions on how to detect and avoid the trap of Scripture-twisting!

    –> And most of all, in Rom thirteen from the 1st verse on, there is an explicit teaching on the duties and status of the civil authority: his principal task being to do good as God’s servant, especially through establishing and defending justice. Similarly the first principle of citizenship is neighbour-love. This is dual to the concept of rights as binding moral claims we make on others in light of our dignity as creatures made under God and holding his image. Thus the biblical roots of say the US DOI of 1776 in its 2nd paragraph. [Cf my already linked.]

    –> Much of the opposition to Hitler and much of the resistance to him was precisely anchored in Biblical religion and rejecting Nazism as idolatry and deceit. Just look up the Confessional Church’s Barmen Declaration, and the story of the White Rose movement and martyrs.

    –> In short, sorry to say, Rumpel has here put on display his own bigotry and joined in a nasty slander.

    3] Chase: “Ignore this ‘educated’ clown”

    In short, don’t confuse me with facts, evidence and logical reasoning, my mind is made up. I have labelled and attacked the man, and so I dismiss the unanswered case.

    What does this say about the level of “reasoning” commonly on display among our educated classes here in the Caribbean?

    [And BTW, DFX, it is precisely because our vaunted, rote-and-regurgitate education system by and large fails to equip people to think critically and seriously — which is not at all the same as rationalistically and hyperskeptically — that we see the problems identified above.]

    Cheerio

    GEM of TKI

  98. BFP:

    Again, a response on points vanished without even a note on moderation. In it I responded to DFX on scripture twisting, to Rumpel’s uncivil and uncalled for invidious comparison of Evangelical Christianity with Nazism, and to Chase’s dismissal rhetoric that in effect fails to address the merits but brushes off the man.

    GEM of TKI

  99. PS; The madness of crowds is a long noted problem. But, one that is largely irrelevant to the key points above:

    a] there is credible evidence that supports that the Saudies, based on Q 5:59 – 60 and as manifested in official sermons over many years, have taught in the name of Islam, the premise that Jews and/or Christians are descendants of apes and pigs.

    b] There is reason to understand that certain text-books used in Saudi funded schools teach this dehumanising and demonising doctrine that is an obvious precursor to hate and murder.

    c] There is a serious and as yet unanswered question as to whether these books are being imported into and used in Saudi-funded education in the name of Islam here in the Caribbean, in Barbados in particular.

    d] In association with this, there is a serious issue based on Q9:5, 29 ff, etc and associated Hadiths, history and founding examples, that there is a general problem with militancy and aggression in the classical form of Islam. The IslamISTS of our day — thankfully not the majority of muslims — draw on these sources and precedents,to justify what on objective terms is murder of innocents in promotion of an agenda of domination.

    e] To this, there is a want of strong and dominant response within Islam, leading to the need for massive reformation and true enlightenment as Ms Ali et al call for.

    f] We as concerned outsiders, therefore also need to be cautious in defence of our security, even here in the Caribbean.

    That is what I have noted on above, and the pattern of distractors, strawmen and attacks to the man that has come up does not speak well on how we are processing the relevant information here as a region.

    Do you see why I have a pretty pessimistic prognosis for the medium-term future as the waves of the current geopolitical tidal waves leap up and rush over our shores? [Long term, I am far more optimistic, but I wish we would wake up and act in good time to avert a wild and bloody ride on the way to that future . . .]

    On a note of sadness . . .

    GEM of TKI

  100. a linkage

    Here is a link that shows Bajan links to the Saudi doctrine as recently lectured:
    http://www.troid.org/
    You see the schedule of the recent Grande Salle lecture and the address of the organisation in Christ Church who was the contact organiser.

    The Saudi books are available on line, as are the resource if scholarly pronouncements.

    It would be an interesting exercise for all to go to troid. You will observe that troid is now saying to stay away from Zarqawee (Al Qaeda) because it will result in damage to the religion of Islam.

    This is a partial relief. However, Salafi still looks fundamental. Perhaps we may discuss some of the links in the troid site here in our discussions.

  101. Onlookers:

    In closing off [more or less] it is appropriate to note on some choice — but all too sadly typical — “responses” to the above case as summarised in comment 99 just above [my comments are on arrow-points, the rest are selected excerpts; the guilty parties know themselves]:

    __________

    DFX: take a look at Numbers 25:10-13. Image if we could be killed in the name of the Lord just for being in an inter-racial marriage?

    –> Moses, the author of the book, was married to a woman of the relevant ethnicity; the incident in the text is about calculatedly luring Israel into adultery and fornication thus the destructive judgement of God. In short he text is grossly twisted into an accusation that is ill-founded.

    Agenda: for the right wing idealogues on here, islam is the number one [threat] . . . . it is pointless arguing with right wing evangelicals, fundamentalist and idealogues. they view everything through a narrow prism and anything that doesnt fit into their little box is attacked. it is a simple formala they use. paint a picture of an “other”, a bogey man who wants to destroy us. create myths, exaggerations and distort fact. mix it with christian fundamentalism and evangelical fervour. keep spouting the diatribe and propaganda and anyone who is gullible will buy into it

    –> H’mm, why not have a look in the mirror?

    –> In fact as 99 just above indicates [and as is in the onward linked], I specifically spoke to the problem of the radicalised 10 – 15% [not a monolith — note also the always linked through my name . . .], and the troubling roots they have in the founding era, texts, examples and history. I also spoke to the other threats to the Caribbean, starting with ourselves, explicitly noting that the apostate west is a greater danger than Islam. Turns out, too, there was a recent thread with a live interview by the former Dutch parliamentarian, Ali, on this. Ignored of course — don’t confuse me with facts, my mind has been long since made up. Sad, but that’s out there..

    –> BTW, here is the communique from a Conference I had to do with in Barbados, of Evangelicals addressing Islam, the Gospel and the Caribbean. See if it objectively fits your stereotype as just stated. (Then ask yourself about just who is being prejudiced — judging harshly before knowing the relevant facts . . .)

    DFX: To often “Christians” like to get up and spew that it is only the Bible way or the Hell way. And testify like above. When you do that are you not in the same boat as the Islamic Extremists?

    –> The Bible way from Rom 2:7 “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he [God] will give eternal life.” The hell way, from v 8: “But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger” [Note, this opens up the point that those who penitently and persistently respond to the voice of God in conscience and creation, even if they do not have much light otherwise, God will accept. But, willful rejection of truth and insistence on evil God for excellent reason frowns on. So, by the light we have, where do we stand before him, in the C21 Caribbean?]

    –> The inference to immoral equivalency to the likes of a Mr bin Laden is obviously uncalled for and outrageous.

    DFX: lets use some logic here today. Lets starts with the Bible. Genesis is a good start . . . . Genesis 1:25-27 So God created Man AFTER the animals . . . . Genesis 2:18-19 Wait a minute.. God created man before the animals? HMMM I wonder which was it? . . . . the Bible seems so contradict itself by the 22nd verse of the 2nd chapter in it’s very first book. Man that is too funny. And yet we have founded a religion on it.

    –> Basic reading blunder (detailed above): the texts do not at all require that there is a chronological contradiction.

    DFX: Does poisoning 900 people in a jungle in Guyana after killing a US Senator count [as comparable to the 9/11 attacks on the part of Christians] ?

    –> Rev’d Jones was a pseudo-Christian, in fact Marxist, charlatan, who forced his unarmed people to drink poisoned Koolaid at gunpoint, and tried to leave his money to the USSR and the cause of revolution. Not exactly a Christian.

    DFX: My GOD it has a brain after all! [NB: later apologised for] . . . . You are so blinded by you hate and intolerance of other faiths that you failed to figure out that I have been trying not to support or cry down either faith but to say only through understanding can we co-exist.

    –> Psychology of projection, anyone?

    –> Kindly explain to me how the sort of step by step points anchored in evidence issues in 99 above, and inthe always linked can be transmuted into a hateful diatribe, absent the projection of one who is him/herself in the grips of those emotions that blind one to objective reality?

    –> Observe too how red herrings leading out to strawmen and attacks to the man are the consistent resort. What is this saying about the typical state of thinking adn reasoning in the region on matters like this one?

    Chase: Ignore this ‘educated’ clown…we get your point.

    –> Ignores what he evidently cannot address on the merits, and resorts to attacks to the man.

    Rumpel; By the way, did you know Hitler actually had built a ’star chamber’ designed from readings in the Bible, which he thought would give him strength from God?

    –> This is perhaps the most outrageous and subtle. Nazism is probably the only unquestioned instance of gross demonic evil in the West today. So, buy tarring the Bible with the Nazi brush, R seeks to discredit the Christian faith through guilt by association.

    –> Observe: no reference is given, no facts are cited on a grave charge indeed. And, if one knows the history one would know that Hitler’s worldview was mostly shaped by occult [Blavatsky and her Aryan Man myth] and Social Darwinist forces [ the Master Race and its “right” to wipe out inferiors, etc] A glance at the Barmen declaration will suffice to show that Bible-believing confessing Christians in Germany repudiated Hitler and his deceits officially and publicly as early as 1934, one year after he came to power — through what is in effect a full creedal statement!

    –> On further thought, I thinnk too this is a reference to Hitler’s Astrological obsession, a part of his occult involvements. [The British actually hired their own astrologer to get a look over Hitler’s shoulder . . .]

    –> Astrological obsession was of course far more unusual in the 1940’s than today, but two things are clear about it: 1] it is occult not biblical, 2] it falls under several strong biblical strictures against fortune-telling and occult involvement. One making such a resort is sadly delusional if s/he imagines that such will gain the favour of the God of the Bible! [Cf say the incident in Daniel 2, to see the underlying attitude of the Bible.]

    _______

    Onlookers, observe the pattern of contempt, ill-founded hostile claims, and the fact that none of the above actually responds on the merits. Instead it resorts to the red herring, the straw man and the attack to the man.

    Telling and sad. But cheer up: you all just made it to my list of examples for training on how to think . . . as examples of what straight thinking is up against. Why not sit in on the “fundy dummies”class on thinking skills, say here . . .?

    GEM of TKI

  102. Closing comment on choice excerpts awaits moderation.

  103. Shunkleash

    One place for you all to go…www.jihadwatch.com.

    Learn a little bit about islam, buy a Quran and READ IT…find out about the Hadith and READ them, find out about the Sunna and READ them. You will all then understand that islam is not a religion of peace or any such nonsensicle concept…IT IS NOT A RELIGION….islam is POLITICAL and for want of a better word “FASCIST” that controls every facet of existence!! Making all muslims drones.

    So to all those who blabber about Christianity did this and that…and the violence of the bible etc etc I DARE YOU ALL TO FIND ME A QUOTE that you can rely one that has not been ABROGATED by Jesus Christ in the NEW TESTAMENT…remember one thing – Christ the King came to man and PREACHED PEACE and just because those who profess to be Christians DO NOT PRACTICE WHAT HE PREACHED does not devalue the teachings of Christ one iota.

    As for the muslim brother….time to leave the religion of hate and destruction. Embrace life and live…Mohamed was not a prophet but a war monger and peodiphile (he did marry a 9 yr old girl named aisha)..you know it full well. Inshallah you will see the light that mohamed was the shaitan and your “allah” is really a pagan god.

    Shunkleash(PBUH)

  104. Yardbroom

    I have not read the Quran and have no intention of doing so, I do not want to be regaled with long passages of text, even if they are explained by a scholar of some note.

    I am an ignorant man who wishes to live in peace with my neighbours and to that end I wish them no evil, neither will I encourage others to do them harm, or condone evil inflicted upon them. I certainly will not preach hatred against them.

    I have found an inner peace in my way of life and I am at ease with myself, I seek not to convert others and I will not be converted, if that is the way of the heathen, so be it.

    Peace to all of you and may your tomorrows be happier than today.

  105. Chase

    Yardbroom:

    That is what people like DFX and myself are trying to say for the longest while.
    These Christians seem to forget one of the basic teachings of their Bible,which is tolerance.

    I am no christian ,I have no religion,what I do everyday is try to live peacefully with my brotherman.

    This kairosfocus seems to think that with all his education he/she has the right to dictate to others what they should or should not believe in.If what they believe in is so right then why do they try their hardest to pull down another religion.
    Tolerance is the best way to live but some feel that to practice this is to surrender.I feel sorry for them.
    Mankind has always hated what he didn’t understand and this practice will not stop soon.
    Let us try to be tolerant in our lives and I am sure you will see the differance.

  106. Bajan Muslim

    “Concerning Verse 5 of Chapter 9”

    A muslim cannot derive his own rulings from the Quran and hadith base on his own ideas and desires etc., but he must refer to the people of knowledge (this is an entire Islamic topic on its own). It is also important to undestand the background and situation in which the specific verses were revealed.

    The people being referred to by verse 5 in Surah At Taubah are the pagan Arabs who had been waging war against the Prophet (peace be upon him) and who had broken their covenant and treaties with him. This verse is not speaking about the other pagan Arabs who did not break their treaties and take up arms against the Muslims. It is also not speaking about the Jews or Christians, or, for that matter, the pagans who were living outside of Arabia. (taken from Sheik Yusuf Estes’ website)

    The following is taken from Mariful Quran, which is a Tafsir of the Noble Quran:
    (Tafsir or Qur’anic exegesis is the science of Qur’an interpretation)

    [ At the beginning of Surah Al Taubah, SEPARATE injunctions were revealed for the four kinds of non- Muslim groups.

    The FIRST group was that of the Quraysh of Makkah who had themselves BROKEN the TREATY of Hudaibiyah. Now they deserved no extra respite. But since this was the period of ‘sacred months’ during which fighting and killing was forbidden by Allah, therefore the INJUNCTION which covers THEM appears in the FIFTH verse of Surah Al Taubah, that is

    “So when the sacred months expire, kill the Mushriks wherever you find them. And catch them and besiege them and sit in ambush for them everywhere. Then if ther repent and establish salah and pay zakah, leave their way. Surely Allah is most forgiving, very merciful.”
    [Surah al Tawbah:5]

    It means that they had, though, forfeited all their rights by breaking the treaty obligations, but observing the sanctity of the ‘sacred months’ was after all necessary, therefore, they should either leave the Arabian Peninsula soon after the ‘sacred months’ expire, or embrace Islam, or be prepared to face war. ]

    So we can see that the fifth verse was concerning the first group of non Muslims. This is just a very brief explanation, if anyone wants further clarification they can make arrangements to meet with an Islamic scholar in Barbados.

  107. True Native

    Oh belt up, Sabir! – nobody’s interested.

  108. Maat

    Are we trying to discuss the supremacy of different religions? Would it not be far more simple and positive to consider the points of convergence? There are very many principles that are the same in both Islam and Christianity. These include a belief in good and evil, love and peace, mercy and justice, heaven and hell. Within each religion there are divisions on traditions, method of worship and interpretation. These divergent points are not important in the real scheme of things.
    People generally want to know if there is a God and what are the benefits of knowing this God. Each religion would advise us to study their sacred doctrine for this information.
    This information alone is not enough to answer the questions. We cut ourselves some slack in commitment to our faith by considering our ability to read and understand something as knowledge, when in reality, we only know that which we experience.
    Reading and understanding a manual on mechanics does not make me a mechanic. I could meditate and pray about it, discuss it, think about it all day and night and I will still not be a mechanic.
    Ultimately there is the need to experience God, which will answer the question of the existence of God and this in turn will enlighten us as to the benefits of this experience. For that is where the benefits are. Surely the simple test is to live the life that your religion describes. If you and your family are satisfied, have peace of mind and feel that the promises within the doctrine are fulfilled, share your story of the experience with us.

    Peace

  109. passin thru

    That is very nice, Maat!

    It is too bad you weren’t around when those poor misunderstood fellows blew up the bombs in the London Tube and murdered all those people for the glory of Allah.

    I’m sure that if they had only heard you talk, they would have given you a big group hug and would have started singing “we are the world”. They would have put aside their bombs and gone on their way as changed, peaceful souls.

    Yes, if we only had more like you Maat, there would be peace around the world.

    big hugs and kisses to you.

    peace

  110. Convergence

    This thread is getting better now. It is right to hear about convergence and working together. It is correct to read about women moderates who are trying to reform, who have access to power, self-determination, and people who collectively make a way for themselves, and for each other. Perhaps it is a ground zero for this thread to start from, and to make Barbados better.

    What can moderates like ones we possess in Barbados do about the Salafi Manhajs and the Carson Cadogans of the island, that we also possess? This is the thread of violence, intolerance and non-convergence. We have detected that the Manhaj (locally written) email came in preparation for lectures at Grande Salle, put on by Islamic Teaching Centre, Harts Gap. And for some of us this appears threatening.

    What can moderate Muslims, Christians, Jews and Hindus do together to cope with this threat? I just don’t think telling someone to ‘get a life’ is enough, and for this I am sorry. But I would be prepared to work together.

    Not trying to be provocative to any of the respective communities, I am asking how the collective communities can deal with extremism and make a way that will lead to what recent posts are aiming at?

  111. Shunkleash

    “What can moderate Muslims, Christians, Jews and Hindus?” Surely you jest…

    Since when must WE look to mollify Christianity or hinduism or judaism? You must ask the millions and millions and millions and millions of hindus, Christians and Jews slaugtered by islam from 672 AD to the present. Ask them about who has the moderate religion (do you know what is meant by the “hindu kush”)…READ MY POST ABOVE i.e. Christ the King came to man and PREACHED PEACE and just because those who profess to be Christians DO NOT PRACTICE WHAT HE PREACHED does not devalue the teachings of Christ one iota.

    Islam means subjugate/surrender it does not mean peace.

    To say otherwise is to either willingly or unwillingly fall into a touchy feely nonsensical trap spewing more of the same nonsense comming out of the apologetics of islam…that islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism (belief in one god).

    The better question to ask is when will muslims seek to mollify their own religion and its “holy” text(s) so that the moderates (who are yet to show themselves) will come forward. Maybe that way all the Christian Hindu and Jewish terrorists will stop killing all the children and other innocents in the name of “Allah”…oopps got mixed up there.

    Shunkleash(PBUH)

  112. Oh well:

    Once more onto the breach . . . in a thread that refuses to die.

    1] Chase: “This kairosfocus seems to think that with all his education he/she has the right to dictate to others what they should or should not believe in.If what they believe in is so right then why do they try their hardest to pull down another religion. Tolerance is the best way to live but some feel that to practice this is to surrender.I feel sorry for them.”

    Do you not see the fallacy of immoral equivalency in this?

    Chase, I have not sought to tell you what to believe, I have called you and others to look at and address credible — and indeed uncomfortable — facts, and told you on the strength of your duty to the truth to test the facts and draw your conclusions and positions in that light.

    Indeed I adverted to ROM TWO where that is just what he Apostle Paul also said, in so many words — cf my remarks ont he two ways in response to DFX. [I won’t cite again, because the moderating filter does not like such refs.]

    In case you do not know, I do not LIKE the fact that there are uncomfortable points about Islam tracing to its foundations, as applied by today’s islamists. I do not LIKE the fact that islamists acting in the name of Islam just a few weeks ago in Turkey, the most secular of Islamic nations, have tortured and murdered three Christians for nothing more than working for a Bible publishers, taking three hours to accomplish their gruesome work.

    I do not like the fact that the major media and commantariat have largely been silent, and that we hear little or no objection form the leaders of Islam — much less the sort of popular uprising we saw over offensive cartoons [to which I also objected BTW], but these are all facts to be faced.

    I simply refuse to bury my head in the sand at the invitation of those who may well hope to benefit to my detriment thereby.

    Do, while I can happily join my fellow evangelicals in points of appreciation regarding Islam, we also in fair comment have points of concern regarding Islam and moreso islamism, and thus we have called for certain responsive actions on the part of the church in the Caribbean.

    I observe that nowhere in Chase’s remarks is there the slightest indication that he has even glanced at the Bridgetown Declaration of July 2003! Much less, my always linked summary on Islam for Caribbean CHristian leaders in training . . . [What does that say about the intolerant closed-mindedness at work in his vaunted “tolerance”?]

    2] BM: “The people being referred to by verse 5 in Surah At Taubah are the pagan Arabs who had been waging war against the Prophet”

    You know, perfectly well, BM, that the SWORD verse and the associated “verse of tribute,” 9:29, have long since been elaborated into the core of the doctrine of jihad and associated sharia.

    In particular, that verse 5 has been the principal abrogating verse on the more irenic ones in the Quran.

    These are public knowledge, and are commonly reported on all across the world. That is why the translator of the Hadiths I cited above, spoke as he did.

    While there are more irenic interpretations that try to limit the application to the specifics of the pagan arabs, unfortunately, they have not prevailed in the weight of theological, legal and general opinion. Nor, were they the interpretations that shaped the era of Muslim global conquest attempts, and those who are again taking up the sword in the name of Islam. (E.g if the meaning were so perfectly clear, simple, settled and limited, why is it that UBL uses this verse as a favourite anchor for his arguments in his fatwas and declarations of war . . .?)

    Now, I HOPE thatthe more limited interpretations prevail through a process of reformation, but un6til I see that the sort of issues I have just outlined are freely adn frankly and soundly addressed, I remain for good reason, concerned that the militants have the better of the case.

    3] War with the meccans

    There is more than one side to the story of just who broke the relevant treaty. Also there is no doubt as to who started the war, by raiding trade caravans that came from Mecca on the way to Syria, and passed nearby to Yathrib/Medina.

    4] Maat: “Are we trying to discuss the supremacy of different religions? Would it not be far more simple and positive to consider the points of convergence? There are very many principles that are the same in both Islam and Christianity.”

    Much as I would love to discuss points of convergence, we are not dealing with seminar rooms on campus here, we are dealing with a global war of Islamists who target innocents from Indonesia to Thailand to Turkey to Nigeria to Spain to France to London to New York and more — muslim innocents, Buddhist innocents, hind inocents, Jewish innocents, Christian innocents and atheist innocents alike — any one who does not go along with their vision of a militant Islamist dictatorship — whether under a Caliph or the hoped for Mahdi. [And BTW, the Muslim eschatological Jesus figure is utterly the opposite of the one we know from history and in the Bible.]

    In short, we have to face the truth and address it now, before it blows down our front door and comes for us.

    5] Convergence: “What can moderates like ones we possess in Barbados do about the Salafi Manhajs and the Carson Cadogans of the island, that we also possess? This is the thread of violence, intolerance and non-convergence . . . . What can moderate Muslims, Christians, Jews and Hindus do together to cope with this threat? . . . . Not trying to be provocative to any of the respective communities, I am asking how the collective communities can deal with extremism and make a way that will lead to what recent posts are aiming at?”

    Serious, and sobering questions.

    I think — on track record of global reform movements — that we fisrst must work to expose the sad truth, so that we start by facing the truth together: any ideal can be perverted, including by its leaders.

    Then, we can seek to find a path of reformation and work to restrain and if necessary repel the violent in their attacks.

    That way, we may have a hope for a future that is not one in which we see terrorists armed with bio, chem adn nuke horrors holding the world hostage to a warped and dystopian vision.

    That bitterly widse man, Machiavelli, noted on political disorders thathtrye are like wasting diseases’ At first, easy to cure but very hard to diagnose. So, when at length for want of proper diagnosis and prompt treatment the course of the disease becomes plaint o all, it is far too late to cure. Tha tis what happemned withHitler, and 60 millions paid withtheir lives.

    Now that nuke technology and biotech that Hitler never dreamed of are all too easily accessible, this time around, 60 millions may be a gross underestimate of what the cost is going to be. [Sadly the sort of horrible nightmare scenarios and numbers of casualties in the Revelation’s visions, are all-too-literal possibilities today . . .]

    Billions may die over the next several decades if we do not get our act together now. And given certain trends in our region, we may find ourselves easily caught up in the hot phases of the ongoing World War IV.

    Let us not forget, WW II started out as a cluster of limited wars, with the 1931 invasion of Manchuria, then the gradual ramp up that so many were blind to. Until its full fury burst out May 10, 1940, it looked like a distinct non-war. [Well do I recall the French announcement on the eve of that invasion by Guderian’s Panzers that they had only suffered 2,000 deaths to date. That was about to change . . .]

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    GEM of TKI

  113. A quick note:

    Response to Chase etc awaiting moderation.

    GEM of TKI

  114. arrogance

    kairofocus you just love this don’t you. it lets you engage in intellectual masturbation. spout all manner of pseudo intellectual crap. do you actually realise that like all religious people you sound like a fool!

  115. Arrogant [and others]:

    Now that you have spewed off your bigotry, venom and hostility against Bible-believing Christians, maybe you can actually address the issue, proper, on the merits.

    So, let’s go again (and kindly look up both the original post above and the thread off which this is a branch to see the actual issue):
    _____________

    a] there is credible evidence that supports that the Saudis, based on Q 5:59 – 60 and as manifested in official sermons over many years [cf citations and links above on this], have taught in the name of Islam, the premise that Jews and/or Christians are descendants of apes and pigs.

    b] There is reason to understand that certain text-books used in Saudi funded schools teach this dehumanising and demonising doctrine that is an obvious precursor to hate and murder. [Cf on this the recent sad incidents in Turkey . . . is that what a “justified” killing of non-Muslims looks like in IslamIST eyes?]

    c] There is a serious and as yet unanswered question as to whether these books are being imported into and used in Saudi-funded education in the name of Islam here in the Caribbean, in Barbados in particular.

    d] In association with this, there is a serious issue based on Q9:5, 29 ff, etc and associated Hadiths, history and founding examples, that there is a general problem with militancy and aggression in the classical form of Islam. The IslamISTS of our day — thankfully not the majority of muslims — draw on these sources and precedents,to justify what on objective terms is murder of innocents in promotion of an agenda of domination.

    e] To this, there is a want of strong and dominant response within Islam, leading to the need for massive reformation and true enlightenment as Ms Ali et al call for. [Cf the link above to her interview with Hannity and Colmes]

    f] We as concerned outsiders, therefore also need to be cautious in defence of our security, even here in the Caribbean. [This includes the concern raised in the original post above, on what is inadvertently revealed by the remark int he earlier thread by Bajan Muslim: Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly.”]

    That is what I have noted on above, and the pattern of distractors, strawmen and attacks to the man that has come up — and has continued! Now, descending into vulgarity! — does not speak well on how we are processing the relevant information here as a region.

    Do you see why I have a pretty pessimistic prognosis for the medium-term future as the waves of the current geopolitical tidal waves leap up and rush over our shores?
    __________

    Sadly

    GEM of TKI

  116. Rumplestilskin

    Kairofocus says ”Rumpel; By the way, did you know Hitler actually had built a ’star chamber’ designed from readings in the Bible, which he thought would give him strength from God?

    –> This is perhaps the most outrageous and subtle. Nazism is probably the only unquestioned instance of gross demonic evil in the West today. So, buy tarring the Bible with the Nazi brush, R seeks to discredit the Christian faith through guilt by association”

    A completely incorrect conclusion drawn from a FACT that I noted. Maybe incorrect because you interpreted as you wished.

    My point in noting the FACT is that religious zealots of all kinds exist and can take ANY religion and turn it to justify what they want, as suited for their own purposes. Hitler was such a zealot, as many others have been and more will be.

    So, it is not the religion but the ‘practice of such’ that makes the reality. No one should find a need to force or otherwise impress religion on others, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu (and Hindu’s do not) , Evangelical.

    The instant such impression is attempted, an agenda is introduced.

    A valid point and clear to see.

  117. Rumplestilskin

    Kairofocus”None, save to reveal Rumpel’s own, inner deep-rooted hostility to biblical religion — and attitude that lurks in all too many resentful many hearts in our very own Caribbean”

    What????

    What gives you the right to suppose you know my attitude to religions?

    Your interpretation of my pointing out of a FACT indicates your own personal agenda and virulent defense of your own position.

    You further note ” therefore respond, pointing out that the evidence does not establish such an accusation:

    –> Hitler was anything but a Bible-believing Christian. His worldview was shaped by Blavatsky’s Aryan-man”

    It is not for you to assess what Hitler was or was not, the point is what HE HIMSELF thought he interpreted from the Bible and his own ‘religious’ interpretations resulting in actions i.e. a zealot.

    We can all interpretret what we think he was and was not following, but what is critical is what he thought that he was following. And HE thought he was following Biblical evidence.

    That is the point.

    So contrary to your vitriolic attack on me personally (quite needless and unwarranted, I have not attacked anyone personally ever on this site, telling as to your own attitude and tolerance of others) your line of thought is warped by your own beliefs.

    Finally, you also note”’2] Rumpel: “By the way, did you know Hitler actually had built a ’star chamber’ designed from readings in the Bible, which he thought would give him strength from God?”

    AND ASK

    Now, what is the relevance of this to the discussion of how Islamists “justify” murder, and the issue of the possibility of Saudi-funded Textbooks calling Jews and Christians pigs and apes ”

    The relevance is clea. Religious zealots of any persuasion will seek and utilise their own justification for acts whether Muslim, Jewish or Christian zealots.

    The argument that you are using i.e. if they are zealots and differ from the ‘normal interpretations of their own readings’ then they are not Christian is an interesting one, but then you agree that zealots of other persuasions e.g. Muslim are also not to be taken as examples of that religion per se and seen for what they are i.e. zealots, thus not sullying the reputation of the ‘good’ of that religion?

  118. Rumplestilskin

    Further, I made it quite clear in my first post what the point was that”People see what they want to see and use what they want to use for their purposes.

    Power, greed, hatred.”

    Simple. Zealots of all kinds will interpret what they wantfrom any teachings. Peaceful persons of all kinds will also see what they want and live as such.

    Thus, to brand any religion is wrong and what should be ‘branded’ instead is the evil intent behind the zealots, of whatever religion.

    Your own vitriolic attack on me personally is interesting and signifies your own intolerance of alternate views.

  119. Rumplestilskin

    Oh, and I was asked for some ‘evidence’. I really have no desire to go into details at this stage. Why should I? I am not a fanatic about all this.

    So, just a starter and if this is not a simple and plain point of evidence.

    A quote from Mein Kampf: ”Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

    and then “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    Zealot.

  120. Chase

    Kairosfocus:

    Let me put this in as plain a language as I can.

    this is my point of view: Religion to me is like modern day slavery!!

    I have no time to debate which religion is the best or the worse,what I do know is that we all live and exist on this small planet.
    What I believe in is tolerance to each other…..if we can achieve this ,things will be better.
    I was raised as a Christian,grew up in the church,baptised and all that,so please dont think you have to lecture me on the topic.
    Everyone wants to shove their beliefs down your throat but everyone will not swallow.Some of us just like to live our lives in peace.

  121. Hi. I don’t really want to get involved in this volatile (though thoroughly absorbing) conversation. We have a small environmental humanism group in Guyana, and are looking to set up a Barbados membership.

    The environmental part is pretty straightforward, which you can see from our website, whilst the humanist part is largely the application of common sense without need for reference to divine revelation. We are interested in actively promoting human rights, but are not interested in confrontation with religion – only to ensure that everybody can freely make their own mind up by having access to the approach and ideas of Rationalist Thought.

    If someone wants to pick a fight with religions, we’re not the vehicle for you. But if you want to explore what we’re talking about then please do contact us, and hopefully we can interest you in the ecology side of things too. I suspect there are some contributors to this thread who might find a natural home with us.

    For those who are not interested, best wishes in working out your own responses to life’s challenges, and respect to those who are able to bridle their passion long enough to give fair contemplation to an antagonist’s perspective.

    *******************

    Comment by BFP Auntie Moses

    Humanism is a religion. Anybody know that.

    A.M.

  122. Thank you for responding Auntie Moses.

    Many people out there would agree with you on that – especially when it is a legal convenience to be included in or excluded from something.

    To clarify, I am a humanist. I have no religion.

  123. Pig

    Just as Hitler misguidedly murdered Jews, modern day extremists also are prepared to kill those of other religions.

    I find the Manhaj posts frightening and illogical in today’s modern world. They are archaic interpretations. Most religions have gone forward and away from ths. The extremists hang on to it.

    Moderate Muslims on this thread have said that the Muslim community is peaceful, and it appears that there are prominent Muslims reading/ blogging this, so the local community is aware. These are the good cops.

    However, challenged by some posters to plan for how we all can prevent extremist indoctrination of those like Salafi Manhaj (the bad cop), we hear nothing, only the insistance that the community is peaceful.

    We want very much, all religions, to accept the Muslim community as equals and embrace in brotherhood/friendship; but we do not hear how extremism will be stopped.

    Because in the same way that it is wrong for any of us to accuse the Muslim community, it should be important for the Muslim community to realise the posted threads by Manhaj are only an INDICATION of a larger issue that is NOT peaceful, and to come out and state how local extremism will be erased.

    Why won’t good cop help yet? Is good cop afraid of bad cop already? And if so, why should we not also be threatened?

    We call to the Muslim community to examine and to outline what it will do against violent extremist doctrine that is contrary to proper local interpretation of Islamic belief? We want to hear about work towards non-violence.

    Otherwise we must conclude that there are at least two threads to the local community who ignore each other. It is not enough to say Islam is peaceful. We see, and we understand that there are others.

    And if this is so we have a problem. Good cop is front line.

    Bajan Muslim, I am sorry to ask you, but please tell the community of Barbados and formulate the plan for promoting moderacy, and the plan to suppress the extremism from the land?

    Salafi Is Saudi, and it is said local Islam is of different origin. Will this lead to separate Imams? Are there already such?

    How will you prevent the Salafi Manhaj type and friends from indoctrinating and preaching? Please respond to this?

    We do not wish to be Manhaj guinea pigs, nor our children, after years of Salafism.

    PEACE

  124. Citizen First

    As to whether humanism is a religion or not (the U.S. Supreme court has ruled on different occasions that it is a religion AND that it is NOT a religion (strange but true!)), such debates serve only to distract from the purpose of seeking happiness and helping others to be happy.

    For myself, humanism is not a religion in the popular sense of the word but more of a philosophical orientation in the effort of trying to understand our experiences and observations. For the benefit of the BFP community (and I am being a bit presumptuous) I offer the following from the BBC on humanism…

    “Humanists believe that human experience and rational thinking provide the only source of both knowledge and a moral code to live by.

    They reject the idea of knowledge ‘revealed’ to human beings by gods, or in special books.

    Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives.

    It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities.

    It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

    Most humanists would agree with the ideas below:

    There are no supernatural beings.
    The material universe is the only thing that exists.
    Science provides the only reliable source of knowledge about this universe.
    We only live this life – there is no after-life, and no such thing as reincarnation.
    Human beings can live ethical and fulfilling lives without religious beliefs.
    Human beings derive their moral code from the lessons of history, personal experience, and thought.”

    While I cannot honestly say that there is NO God (I don’t know, can’t prove or disprove etc), I find humanism a generally defensible position from which to approach conflicts and issues such as the one considered in this thread.

  125. Pig

    I accept the existence of humanism as a force toward better condition. I also do believe that violence grows, similar to a plant.

    Maybe we could extrapolate on extremism and how humanism could relate to established religious extremism and eliminate it?

    As I understand it humanism can be considered parallel to extremism, and also religion. Many humanists are religious, or some secularly so.

    I do not know if there are any extremists who are humanists, as I do not know many extremists.

    Once, many years ago I was entering the UK with a group of friends, one wrote ‘anarchist’ under profession. She was instantly detained.

    That is as close to extremism as this pig gets, and pig does not wish violence to grow.

  126. Citizen First

    I wouldn’t call myself a humanist but someone with humanist leanings or attitude.

    Like you, I don’t know any extremists so I have no experience in relating to such people. All the Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists/Agnostics etc. that I have met, present themselves as reasonable people who are happy and content to live in Barbados with its western liberal democracy, the rule of law, the scientific method and a general adherence to human rights as outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and even a foreign policy of “a friend to all, a satellite of none”. I conclude that most Barbadians are objectively humanistic in character even if many claim to follow some religion.

    However in this time of polarising religious attitudes and beliefs (comimg mainly from outside of Barbados) I can only suggest that we can no longer take for granted these values that contribute to our high standard of living. The old adage that the price of eternal freedom is eternal vigilance (or something like that) is thus most applicable.

    Also the leadership of the country must not equivocate in the defence of those attributes listed above. The extremists play hardball!

  127. BFP

    Do humanists believe in whole evolution? That is… that there was no divine intervention in the creation of the universe?

  128. noreligion

    islamic extremists pose a danger to secular democracies but so do right wing evangelicals who want to impose their version of christianity on the rest of us. kairofocus implies in one of his posts that the major threat to the caribbean is the tidal wave of corruption coming from the north. give me that corruption which guarantess the rights of minorities like gays, women, accords women the right to abortion. i dont want any form of religious imposition. not islamic or christian. look at the threat to democracy and civil liberties posed by a right wing evangelical influenced government in the US. kairofocus and the evangelicals pose just as much a threat to open thought with their dogma as do islamists. spare me the philosophical dribble and thesis kairo because it doesnt impress me.

    ***************

    Comment by BFP Robert

    Perhaps noreligion could give us a list of the number of persons murdered by “right wing (christian) evangelicals” for religious motivations in the past week… or year?

    Oh… zero.

    That’s what I thought.

    As for Muslims, on the other hand….

  129. Maat

    My limited understanding of humanism links it very closely to the overall principle behind freemasonry. The historical evidence suggests that mans faith in himself to take us ‘forward’ in life, has the world in the current situation we face with wars of Terror, environmental destruction and massive disease. Non of these problems have been bought about because of religion as religion has not been a factor in global or economic development. Religion is used as a lame excuse to invade countries, enslave people and unreasonably exploit natural resources.
    Science and research based knowledge has been accepted as the major influence for human development for centuries and where is humanity as a result. The majority of us are still poor, healthcare is generally very poor (so called breakthrough drugs and treatments are withdrawn from sale almost every year due to unforeseen damage to users). Crime is at it’s highest for centuries, wars still kill more civilians than soldiers. The list of humanities lack of meaningful progress in this life can go on and on, but our personal ego wants us to believe that we have all the answers through rational thought and research.
    Humanity has yet to develop a pill that will cure or prevent the common cold or cancer. Yet in nature there exists treatments, without side effects, for all these that the average person can produce and administer. (vervain for the common cold, papaya leaf tea to beat cancer etc).
    Humans are much more than the physical forms which we recognise, we are much more than an intellect. This fact is bought to light by the fact that we can and do interact with many intangible forces every day which effect our decisions. Some people call them moods, desires or creativity. Even humanists dream when they sleep, they also respond to fear, joy, hope and vanity. Explain the rationale in these emotions.

    Peace

  130. Citizen First

    BFP
    re: evolution

    I do NOT represent humanism and humanists. That said, given that most humanists do not believe in the existence of supernatural beings then they would not believe in any divine cause or intervention in the creation of the universe.

    When asked what happened before the Big Bang and why it happened, a physicist friend of mine said …”I don’t know, the presently known laws of physics no longer work beyond that point!”

  131. Maat

    Comment by BFP Robert

    Perhaps noreligion could give us a list of the number of persons murdered by “right wing (christian) evangelicals” for religious motivations in the past week… or year?

    ……………………

    Would the alleged death of 650,000 iraq’ civilians, and more wounded count as resulting from the Bush war against evil. It is alleged that one of the voting blocks that saw Bush return to power for his second term was that of the Christian right. Also that Bush himself referred to God in some of his earlier sabre rattling when the invasion of Iraq was underway.

    Peace

  132. Red Lake Lassie

    Maat, don’t be silly. Surely you can see the difference between Islam where murder is sanctioned, commanded by their holy book and the actions of soldiers in Iraq?

    Are you really saying that British and US Soldiers are “killing for Jesus” like Islamists kill for Allah?

    If that’s what you are saying you lose your entire credibility. It is so stupid.

    Hardly a day goes by in Iraq where Muslims don’t blow up other Muslims for being of a different sect. Two weeks ago, Islamists planted bombs in a girls school (can’t have those bitches learning how to read, can we?)

    your comments about this are so much crap.

  133. mark_us

    red lake lassie, none of you who bring religion to the table can claim any credibility. no religion can claim to have its hands clean. today its muslims with the violence. not too long ago it was christians. instead of wasting time trying to claim superiority of religion you all need to rid your selves of the chains that hold your brains and hinder free thought.

    ****************

    comment by bfp george

    “today its muslims with the violence. not too long ago it was christians.”

    What, like 600 years ago? The equivalency argument doesn’t take. I agree with Red Lake Lassie

  134. Bimbro

    Barbados’ mistake (and I find it incredible to believe that they could have made it) was to allow any muslims into Bim in the first place!

  135. I’m grateful contributors have looked into this, thank you.
    To Pig’s question as to whether there are humanist extremists, the answer can only be relative, but I would say yes, I have met them. These people do not physically hurt others, but they are so arrogant in their belief that anyone who believes in anything supernatural is not talking sense, that they themselves have become hypocritical; – they never stop complaining about the arrogance, the undeserved privileges and the obstacles to reason of religion, yet they start displaying the very characteristics that they complain about. This is human nature, and it is something to guard against, as it inhibits progress.
    Citizen First made an important point in saying that perhaps there is less value in being distracted by definitions. Furthermore, the result of being a movement which encourages critical enquiry and free thought, is that not everyone comes to the same conclusions !!!

    With the greatest of respect to Maat, our view of Man’s potential is more positive than yours – though goodness knows we can sympathise with pessimism, from what we see in everyday life, and on the television.
    Man’s performance so far, has not been good.
    Many humanists out there directly link Man’s poor performance to religion, some blame most wars on religion. I think that is a cop-out.
    I am not interested in picking a fight with religion – I just want to people to have the Rationalist option available to all so they can make up their own minds, and to infuse into this the urgency of environmental responsibility.
    I do believe that at this stage in our evolution, religion is more harmful than beneficial, but it is something we can live with. (Influential American Humanist Sam Harris takes the diametrically opposite view to my own, and his logic generally stacks up)

    Yes BFP, I do believe that there was no divine intervention in the creation of the universe, and this is standard amongst humanists. What is interesting is the number of scientists who have become religious, including a small number who have been at the forefront of physics and concluded that the incredible patterns, symmetries, coincidences and extreme long shots that have come together in order to allow life to flourish could not possibly have happened without being directed, and this direction they put down to intelligent design, and thus god (*). Humanists would disagree with them, and I do as well. Its very interesting though, and I went to a speech by one such chap not so long ago; former Cambridge Mathematics Professor turned priest, John Polkinghome. He came up with nothing that even slightly led me to give credence to his beliefs, but I respect his thought process in having arrived at that position.

    Whilst all this is very important, its not really the stuff that interests me. For me the important thing is to allow us to move forward without referring to divine revelation, so that we can make our decisions through logical argument, maintaining strong ethics and the flexibility to respond appropriately to changing circumstances. I think I am in agreement with Citizen First, how could we be so arrogant to insist unequivocally that there definitely can not be a god, when greater men than ourselves have struggled with this question over the millenia? I believe there is no god, but I keep my own belief in perspective.

    To return to Maat’s ideas, one of the biggest concerns I had when I started investigating humanism, was my own fear of anomie. Nature abhors a void, and if you were to take religion out of the equation, what nasty alternative would take its place – Fascism? Nationalism? Totalitarianism? Just take a look at what has happened in ostensibly atheist regimes in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Soviet Union, and perhaps you would share the same concerns as myself (*). Similarly, when autoritarian control collapsed in Yugoslavia, the resulting aomie led neighbours to declare war on each other. The solution, is to expose all to Rationalist Thought. If people come to the conclusion that there is, or is not, a god, then so be it – but importantly they will have a better chance of finding a correct balance between protecting the individual’s rights, and allocating proper responsibility to that individual within society. They would also be better placed to ensure that religion did more good than harm. Evolution, not revolution. An evolving society.

    Other points:
    Incidentallly, much of modern physics today is theoretical only, as we presently have no means of proving it, and subsequesntly there are schools of thought within physics that largely depend on leaps of faith !!
    I understand that there is no doubt that Bush owes both his presidential election successes to the Christian Right – though to be fair to them, a lot of moderates in the western world were duped by his misrepresentations. I remember being overtly anti-war back in 2003, but to my shame I did not march against it because I naively reasoned that Blair wouldn’t be doing this unless he had good reason to – they counldn’t possibly have been that daft, could they…?
    Bush’s deliberate choice of the word “Crusade” made me feel physically sick.
    I’m sorry, but however attractive Bimro’s comment might seem as an easy solution, that’s the line of thought that really scares me. I live in UK, and today we have good, decent people starting to vote for the British National Party, who are a bunch of racists. Having the idiot fringe voting for thugs is one of the accountable rough edges of democracy, but having good decent people agreeing with them – this scares the living daylights out of me.

    (*) It is not for me to pass comment on their own individual needs and bias – the very fact these brilliant men take this path is interesting enough.

    (**) Actually, the Nazia played along with religion, their stormtroopers went into battle with “gott mit uns” on their belts. On a personal note, though we cannot be sure of their intentions, we believe that my father in law’s life was saved from the Nazis by a Catholic priest

    I hope this answerwasn’t too long, please pull me back if you think I have missed something. Thankyou

  136. True Native

    Bimbro:

    Those are my sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, it has been allowed to happen and those people breed like flies. The Immigration Department ought to wise up and close the doors NOW to stop letting them in. It ain’t gonna happen. Too much money passes, you know what I mean?

  137. Onlookers:

    I observet that there is a studied refusal to address the actual matters of substance on the thread, and instead to display hostility and bigotry. That is sad, and I will simply make some remarks on cases in point.

    For, it is plain from the current course of the thread that the matter on the merits is unanswerable — that is why there are resorts to the attacks to the man instead. But, putting the head in the sand on the real issue then turning aside to take out frustration on a favourite whipping boy does not deal with the real problem. All it does is that it reveals just how prevalent and brazen anti-Christian now is bigotry is in our region.

    I will select a few capital cases in point:

    1] Rumpel, on the rhetorical impact of comparisons to Hitler and co . . .

    There is actually a well-known fallacy, on making a guilt-by-association link to Nazism. [Onlookers, kindly observe what else I had to say on the point, namely that the move has the effect of guilt by association, and Rumpel’s “explanation” underscores just that point.]

    If you don’t know that, you should.

    You still owe an apology.

    Worse, later on, you compound the crime by using an infamous cite from Hitler where he falsely and deceptively claimed to be a “Christian” and that Jesus was his Lord and Saviour — cf the Barmen Declaration, as already linked, on what the REAL, leading Christians of Germany thought and courageously published about this idolatrous and blasphemous game, as early as 1933- 34.

    I will pause to address the common cite from the 1922 speech as it is a classic of how the text was twisted, first by him then now by the atheist web sites that often use it to falsely accuse Christians. The text in the Gospels is on how Jesus exposed and overturned the tables on a powerful circle of cheats who were exploiting pious Jews and disrespecting the Court of the Nations set aside as an area for men of any country to come tot he Temple to seek God. Jesus’s action was just the opposite of justifying racism, as any knowledgeable Bible student woudl immediately recognise. Hitler was twisting the text blasphemously and even demonically. Those who now wish to use his sick speech to fasten guilt by association with Hitler around the necks of Christians simply display their ignorance and hostility.

    Sorry, Rumpel, case proved.

    2] Chase:

    “Religion to me is like modern day slavery!!”

    In short, you are simply doing the same guilt by association game, this time with the other generally unquestioned example of evil in our culture. [But, C, guess who taught the anglophone West to see that slavery was evil, and why — ans: C18 – 19 evangelicals. If you doubt me on this, have a read of Equiano’s Interesting Narrative, a breakthrough autobiography by an evangelical, former slave resident in England.]

    Indeed, I can show, at length, that Bible-believing Christians energised by the reformation, and acting out of their worldview and scriptures, and others influenced by the power of their case, had a lot to do with the rise of modern liberty and democracy; starting with Vindiciae contra Tyrannos and the Dutch declaration of independence of 1581,and flowing on to our own history of liberation and empowerment in the Caribbean. [Just think about why it is that several of Jamaica’s national heroes were Baptists, all martyrs, and why the 1831 sit-down strike for pay that turned into an uprising was known as the Baptist War, and how it precipitated the Emancipation act of 1833.]

    3] No Religion; “kairofocus implies in one of his posts that the major threat to the caribbean is the tidal wave of corruption coming from the north. give me that corruption which . . . accords women the right to abortion. i dont want any form of religious imposition . . . the evangelicals pose just as much a threat to open thought with their dogma as do islamists.

    Now, first, does any person have a RIGHT to kill another innocent human being? Obviously not. So, at best there may be an exusable case for abortion in some properly medically recognised cases of a threat to the Mother’s life — there cannot be a right to kill any human being! [And if you are trying to dehumanise the unborn child, then that itself is telling on what is going on.]

    That should give us warning on the underlying issues that lurk inthe thinking now on display.

    And, sure enough, it then surfaces in an EXPLICIT attempt to equate evangelical Christians and Islamist terrorists and the like. But surely, we are not approaching the sixth anniversary of the day on which nineteen Baptist theology students crashed aircraft into the Kaaba at Mecca, and into a major site at King Khalid military city .

    But of course, the fallacious immoral equivalency attempted comparison of evangelical Christians and Islamists is a characteristic rhetorical ploy of the secularists of the North. [Indeed, that is where I first met the Hitler speech example, and it is where I have most frequently met the sort of they are all the same lazy bigotry that unfortunately has just been displayed by NR. tidal waves from the North, anyone? Or is it more acceptable to simply deride how “Americanised” we have become in the region . . .]

    4] Maat:

    650k — the number is highly dubious. But the point is relevant. [Though, too, Mr Bush is hardly acting in the name of the Christian Faith . . .]

    Without trying to undo over a decade of simplistic or worse media presentations (much of it shaped by the climate of opinion we are observing in this thread . . .):

    –> First we are dealing with a war that was a UN sponsored police action going back to 1990 – 91.

    –> After the armistice of 1991, which is not a peace treaty, BTW, Mr Hussein’s regime indulged insuch routine and material violations and mass internal slaughters that the victorious powers imposed no-fly zones and repeatedly renewed bombing [e.g in 1998 under Mr Clinton].

    –> Also, under the armistice terms, there were sanctions against Iraq’s trading, given its pattern of abusing the international trading system in pursuit of WMDs. A “window” intheregiome was the oil for food [and other humanitarian resources] programme, which unfortunately Mr Hussein subverted into a prop for his ongoing agendas, and in the process diverted the resources that should have addressed legitimate medical and nutritional issues with the Iraqi people. [He also seems to have used some of the funds to bribe oversight officials, further compromising the international system.]

    –> It is relative to the pattern of those material violations of armistice terms that major campaigning was renewed, with ONE among many points being that SH had not given any credible grounds to other than suspect that his nuclear etc programmes continued, which was the consensus view of the world’s major intel agencies, and indeed it was shared by many of the most outspoken “Bush/Blair lied . . ..”critics we see on TV today. [Even Amb Wilson’s investigations and report actually CONFIRMED the opinion that in Niger and evidently elsewhere SH sought resources to further his WMD programmes.]

    –> I don’t want to get into too many links so, please do your own googling . . .

    So, the case is not the slam-dunk you imagine. And, it may be helpful to observe Paul’s nuanced teaching in Rom 13 on the role of the civil authority and the citizen,including the reason why the former holds the power of the sword. Though it is open to abuse, in a world in which there are school-yard bullies writ large, there is a legitimate role of the use of force in protection of justice. [To see how a broader biblical and historical view on that may come out, you may want to read the above linked on the roots of modern liberty,and the rest of the argument there.]
    _______

    Pig:

    Thanks.

    Meanwhile, methinks it is time for some serious rethinking, gentlemen.

    GEM of TKI

  138. Response on points, under the right of reply, awaits moderation.

  139. Onlookers:

    Oh yes: Before we totally lose sight of the main issue.

    This, again, is the as yet not cogently answered issue at the heart of this thread:
    ____________

    a] there is credible evidence that supports that the Saudis, based on Q 5:59 – 60 and as manifested in official sermons over many years [cf citations and links above on this], have taught in the name of Islam, the premise that Jews and/or Christians are descendants of apes and pigs.

    b] There is reason to understand that certain text-books used in Saudi funded schools teach this dehumanising and demonising doctrine that is an obvious precursor to hate and murder. [Cf on this the recent sad incident in Turkey . . . is that what a “justified” killing of non-Muslims looks like in IslamIST eyes? How do our region’s more moderate muslims respond to this atrocity, and on what basis?]

    c] There is a serious and as yet unanswered question as to whether these books are being imported into and used in Saudi-funded education in the name of Islam here in the Caribbean, in Barbados in particular.

    d] In association with this, there is a serious issue based on Q9:5, 29 ff, etc and associated Hadiths, history and founding examples, that there is a general problem with militancy and aggression in the classical form of Islam. The IslamISTS of our day — thankfully not the majority of muslims — draw on these sources and precedents,to justify what on objective terms is murder of innocents in promotion of an agenda of domination.

    e] To this, there is a want of strong and dominant response within Islam, leading to the need for massive reformation and true enlightenment as Ms Ali et al call for. [Cf the link above to her interview with Hannity and Colmes]

    f] We as concerned outsiders, therefore also need to be cautious in defence of our security, even here in the Caribbean. [This includes the concern raised in the original post above, on what is inadvertently revealed by the remark in the earlier thread by Bajan Muslim: Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly.”]
    ____________

    That is what I have noted on above, and the pattern of distractors, strawmen and attacks to the man that has come up — and has continued, even now descending into open incivility! — does not speak well on how we are processing the relevant information here as a region.

    So, a test:

    –> can someone out there take up the points above, and follow up the underlying facts and links, then cogently show us why the just summarised concerns on IslamISM – note, not all of Islam — and its roots should not trouble us unduly?

    GEM of TKI

    PS: Chase, form the first time you commented on my remarks, you have attacked me as a person, and what you surmised is my worldview. I have put up a specific document by Caribbean evangelicals, who on reflection as guided by world-class experts [one of them a holder of the Templeton Prize], have expressed their points of appreciation, concern and calls for action regarding Islam, the Gospel and the Caribbean. Now, it is over to you to show that your attacks in that light are well warranted, or else by default you show yourself to be what you project unto others and deride.

  140. I will step aside and wait for someone to open up a separate thread, within which we can discuss environmental humanism.

  141. True Native

    I can’t speak for others, but you can open as many threads as you like, I for one will not be reading your lengthy, boring diatribes. Why don’t you just direct readers to your website where they can read all that stuff?

  142. Pig

    I clicked on Gobeit’s name and went to this environmental site. Try it.

    The last post by kairosfocus was very good. Please try to read it carefully.

  143. noreligion

    anti-abortion people are a case. kairofocus goes on about killing a human life in relation to abortion but then launches a defence of the iraq war and of the bush propaganda about wmds and saddam. i bet you support the death penalty! and you conveniently ommitted the part about rights of gays when you quoted me. clever tactic.
    gobeithio speaks about humanism in his/her post in a very rational, unemotional manner, does not attack any religion but true native calls it lenghty boring diatribes. if anyone is engaging in lenghty boring diatribe and philosophical dribble it is kairofocus! it says a lot about one religion when it has to discredit another one to claim its superiority. a world without religion and religious bigots. that is what we need!

  144. True Native

    noreligion:

    Yes, it is lengthy and – to ME – boring. However, I am an avid environmentalist and animal lover and I have just done my bit by signing a petition to the Japanese P.M. to stop the killing of whales and dolphins which I find utterly deplorable. How did I find out about the petition? By a very short, straight-to-the-point, informative post on this blog by Jinx. No long-winded diatribe. But, as I said, others may like to wade through it. I don’t. I prefer action.

  145. Chase

    I am who I am .No bible toting junkie can or will ever change me just as no one can change your views.
    I am obviously not as highly educated as you are but my words are to the point built on common sense.You are a christian,therefore you have your agenda,I am not .
    I have no place for religious affiliation in my life..that is my choice.
    I chose to live each day as it come by being good to my brotherman,respecting they that respect me and tolerance of all things foreign to me.
    I will not go around crying down others because of my beliefs,to each his own.
    The world is filled with many kinds …who are we to decide if one is better than the other.At the end of it all ,if I am to be judged then let it be so ,I fear no one not even death.
    I believe in tolerance and that is what gets me through life for I have seen what religion can do.

  146. Chase

    It is also amazing (but obvious) how BFP puts up with these long ass posts by Kairosfocus,as long as it suits their views.I someone puts up something different to their views we all hear the same refrain ..’start your own blog …it takes 15 minutes’.

  147. DFX

    Chase,

    Did you catch Brass Tacks today? Lady was saying that if you put a Bible by the head of a baby when it’s crying in bed it’s power will calm the baby! My only question is exactly how hard to you put the Bible down? And do you aim for the forehead or the soft spot? 😉 Aren’t we a bunch of religious fanatics now in B’dos… And now young Hutchinson come and stir up the pot.

    You got to love this country!

    DFX

  148. Onlookers:

    It is obvious that the thread has now manifested the underlying problems of a Caribbean at risk; especially the turning from a culture of civility and underlying mutual respect and truth-seeking to a culture of secularist and neo-pagan manipulation through spin and deceptive and contempt-laced exploitive rhetoric.

    One should in particular note just how studiedly the matters of substance as posed in the thread on the merits of facts, supporting evidence and reason are avoided. All the better to resort to red herrings that distract attention from the substantial issue, pulling attention towards strawmen that are pummelled and to attempts to attack the man, some of them frankly as sophisticated and subtle as they are vicious.

    This is where many of our educated people are, and that does not bode well for the fate of a region that has to look to such for leadership in the face of a troubled global era. (And that is why the no 1 threat to the region is, sadly, US — our “educated” elites as a whole; due to our want of basic logical and moral soundness and integrity. That has been so for a long time, but IMHCO it is now getting worse and worse. Let us note that the lesson of the classical Democracies was that when a democracy’s opinion-leaders lose contact with reality, it spins down into self-destruction. Just ask the ghosts of the leaders of Athens and the Roman Republic on that. In more modern times, the fates of the Wiemar Republic and of the 3rd Republic in the face of Hitler’s rise should serve as sobering warnings.)

    Now, I will note on a few select points, NR being today’s chief examplar:

    1] “anti-abortion people are a case. kairofocus goes on about killing a human life in relation to abortion but then launches a defence of the iraq war and of the bush propaganda about wmds and saddam”

    You will observe how NR here neatly avoids addressing the obvious gap in his own reasoning [on a topic that he introduced as part of a distractor], but instead resorts to accusatory labelling. Let us further note that he obviously has noting of substance relative to the merits of fact and logic and policy on the IslamIST threat. But, he cannot resist the temptation to show his animus to those who differ with him on the rights of innocent human life.

    On the matter just raised, the simple answer, again, is that the killing of innocent human life is not a right. By contrast, Mr Hussein across decades pursued a campaign of being a murderous schoolyard bully writ large within and beyond his own country, eventually bringing him into conflict with the UN Security Council over his unprovoked and cruel invasion of Kuwait. That war was never resolved to the point of a peace treaty, because of Mr Hussein’s further misbehaviour, as is objectively shown across 12 years of UN resolutions and related documents. This led to continued low level fighting for the entire period and when the material breach reached a head, it led to renewed major fighting. And, that is not “propaganda” it is objective history, much of which long predates Mr Bush’s regime. [Onlookers, note how NR does not address actual facts, but resorts to accusations.]

    The matters are simply not comparable, in a world in which schoolyard bullies writ large are a serious threat.

    2] “you conveniently ommitted the part about rights of gays ”

    Since al of these matters are distractors from the actual substance of the thread, I addressed a typical example. The second “rights” issue you raise is again rooted in the same abuse of the term “rights.” For, as I discussed in the linked on modern liberty’s roots, rights are binding moral claims we make on others to respect our dignity as persons. As such they are subject to the point that one may not simply assert a right to do as one pleases, i.e objection to licence, libertinism and amorality are not enmity to liberty but a recognition of its proper limits if we are to have a viable community.

    That may not be popular among elites nowadays, but it is sound, as an exploration of the Kantian Categorical imperative and its implications for sustainability of community in light of the history of cultures that have given themselves over to sexual anarchy, amorality, licence and libertinism, will show.

    3] “it says a lot about one religion when it has to discredit another one to claim its superiority. a world without religion and religious bigots. that is what we need!”

    Now, this is mere projection.

    Nowhere have I sought to uphold my own religious convictions by putting down those of another. Instead, as can be seen in the agenda of points and issues just posed for the third time without an answer, I have raised supporting facts and reasoning in light of a serious question in the original post.

    What happened, onlookers, is that it is the secularist and skeptical advocates who then set out to attack the man. Now that I have responded effectively and correctively, they are going on to further attacks to the man.

    [Now too, they wish to complain on the length that it takes to responsibly address accusations. What does that tell us?]

    4] Chase: “I will not go around crying down others because of my beliefs,to each his own . . . . I believe in tolerance and that is what gets me through life for I have seen what religion can do.”

    First, please, go look in the mirror sometime . . . in light of what you have done above, as I highlighted and corrected.

    “Religion” BTW, does nothing by itself. It is us finite, fallen, fallible, sinful human beings who are capable of perverting any ideal or respected entity for purposes that are morally indefensible. That includes religion-substitutes and quasi-religions such as secular humanism [a descriptive and apt term].

    6] DFX: “Aren’t we a bunch of religious fanatics now in B’dos…”

    Semi-magical superstition using respected objects as talismans is a common problem in all places and all times, once people are under stress. Think about how many people have “lucky” rabbit’s feet etc.

    [Onlookers, of course his highlighting of such an ireelvant incident in this thread is intended to do the same thing as I pointed out above , undercut the credibility of a Judaeo-Christian worldview by making invidious comparisons or associations. Note his use of the referernce to “fanaticism,” which is loaded language indeed in the context of the principal focus of this thread. DFX and others of his ilk should know and do better than that.]

    That’s enough for now

    GEM of TKI

  149. Bimbro

    Bimbro:

    Those are my sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, it has been allowed to happen and those people breed like flies. The Immigration Department ought to wise up and close the doors NOW to stop letting them in. It ain’t gonna happen. Too much money passes, you know what I mean?

    Thanks for the reply, ‘True Native’. ‘Unfortunately’, I DO know what you mean and certainly, could n’t agree more (certainly, about the breeding!) I live in the UK and years ago, it used to be “blacks breed like rabbits”! Now, since the asians have come here in such numbers and have eclipesed us in that regard, you hardly hear a word about it now. OK for asians but not for blacks!

    With morals and standards like that, and letting all other kinds of people into our country (Bim), our poor little nation is doomed, not to mention the wider democratic West. A question for you; do you think they’d let us so easily, into their country? I think we all know the answer to that one!

    Don’t expect much from Arthur – he’s a Blair clone!

  150. Rumplestilskin

    Absolutely hilarious. Here we are politely discussing a matter AND providing clear and irrefutable evidence and someone goes off the ‘deep end’.

    If I may, a definition of paranoid:

    Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others.

    Chill, really.

  151. True Native

    Bimbro:

    Before the Blacks arrived in Britain, it was the Irish and they too got the sh…..y end of the stick! The Jews went through a rough period with Sir Oswald Moseley breathing down their necks as well. Then came the Asians from Uganda. Everyone felt sorry for them because of the Butcher of Uganda – Idi Amin – (Biggest mistake the British every made, but they had no choice). Being basically tolerant (FAR TOO TOLERANT AT THE MOMENT), the British learned to accept the Blacks because the Jamaicans paved the way with their aggression and “no-nonsense” attitudes. Furthermore, the Blacks were Christians and eventually they absorbed British ways and customs easily and the British began to “accept” them. By now, the Asians were making their presence felt by buying up everything they could get their hands on and, as with Barbados (AT THE MOMENT) many were peace-loving Muslims. Ah-hah! But the sleeping tiger was waking up. It woke up with a BANG, and we all know the current situation. It is VERY frightening and my heart goes out to Christian Blacks living in the U.K. Matter of fact, I know one Bajan family who are coming back home because they’re terrified of what Britain has become. Many English people are fleeing to France and Spain and some to Australia and New Zealand. Are you going to stick it out, Bimbro? I shall pray for you.

  152. Citizen First

    Kairosfocus,

    You have made many good points on the original substantive issue of this thread.

    However, the IMPLIED condemnation of those who of us who are not so sure of the veracity of ANY particular religion and state so, is so divisive and hurtful that the consensus of reasonable minds (vis a vis that murder in the name of belief is wrong) may actually be threatened.

    For the record, I deplore the ad hominen attacks towards you.

  153. DFX

    6] DFX: “Aren’t we a bunch of religious fanatics now in B’dos…”

    Semi-magical superstition using respected objects as talismans is a common problem in all places and all times, once people are under stress. Think about how many people have “lucky” rabbit’s feet etc.

    [Onlookers, of course his highlighting of such an ireelvant incident in this thread is intended to do the same thing as I pointed out above , undercut the credibility of a Judaeo-Christian worldview by making invidious comparisons or associations. Note his use of the referernce to “fanaticism,” which is loaded language indeed in the context of the principal focus of this thread. DFX and others of his ilk should know and do better than that.]

    ROFLMAO

    Thanks Kairo, I needed a good laugh to start my day off!

    But my my the name calling. I thought we had grown up and moved past that. I guess not.

    Oh Well:( Life goes on

    DFX

  154. The Golden Bough

    Readers, from ‘The Australian’, a little perspective.

    Matthew Parris: Rotting empire v inept enemy
    Why the Islamist threat is greatly exaggerated
    May 07, 2007

    WRITING in The Spectator three weeks ago, David Selbourne – the distinguished essayist, author and thinker – had sniffed the wind and concluded that it is all up for what he calls the US imperium. Islam has been Washington’s undoing, he believes, and after six short decades as top dog of the world, America is already stumbling and set to lose its predominance.
    It’s a fascinating thesis. Selbourne is right about one thing. The American empire has passed its zenith. More disputable is his implicit suggestion that the US and the world are heading for some kind of nemesis. And he is mistaken, I reckon, to conclude that Islam will prove that nemesis.
    I think the question of how, when and by whom an imperium is toppled is often secondary. Cometh the hour, cometh the mutiny. Empires fall because they rot from within: they over-extend themselves, become greedy, and lose idealism, nimbleness and drive. The balance of power shifts away from them as other, smaller nations learn to combine forces to harry. By this stage an imperium is a vulnerable giant, and any number of potential Davids with their slings could bring it down.

    Looked at in terms of relative economic and military power, the US was probably at its most formidable in the decade following 1945. By the time Americans fully took on board what clout they had, and adjusted their foreign policy mind-set accordingly, the rest of the world was catching up, and ganging up. Now that the rest of the West feels no need to hide beneath Washington’s skirts from the Soviet empire, this will intensify.

    Selbourne thinks it might have been very different for Washington. He thinks America’s mistake has been to underestimate the guile, energy and willpower of international Islamism. If only the US and its allies had fully understood and squared up to the devil they were facing, he laments.

    Have we not noticed how incompetent are Islamic governments and organisations the world over?

    Has it not occurred to us that if al-Qa’ida really were as wily and resourceful as we tell ourselves it is, and if its tentacles really did extend as wide and deep as some say, it would be on the advance – not battled into a stalemate by Western security and intelligence? Al-Qa’ida’s failure to infiltrate or penetrate Western structures has been complete.

    There is a reason for this. Islam, in its more fundamentalist form, doesn’t work. Serious, committed Islamists are most unlikely to succeed within any structures but their own. Their own, meanwhile, are notoriously inefficient and corrupt. Only by lucky coincidence have much of the world’s known petrocarbons been found beneath Islamic nations, giving them what temporary influence they wield.

    How can any culture that despises modernity, hates mobility, distrusts individual liberty and autonomy, persecutes those who deviate from cultural or ideological norms, imposes a kind of brutal conformity on the way people live, love and work, and at a stroke disempowers 50 per cent of its people (women) from proper education and from all career opportunity so that every male child it produces is being brought up by a person who knows little of the world and only a fraction of what the boy must learn – how can such a culture bestride the 21st century, as Selbourne fears Islamism will do?

    We are hugely overestimating our supposed enemy. We are overlooking the fractures and potential fractures within it. Even if we were not, even if Islamism really were a great, fearsome and growing beast, cynics would say that we in the West would be best advised to let its most implacable enemies shed their blood and money confronting its advance.

    In Chechnya, as in southeast Asia, with China, and all across that swath of nations ending in stan, the struggle between Islam and its rivals is one from which the West can stand aside, leaving both sides to an expensive and wasteful scrap. The Chinese and the Russians are infinitely more savage than we dare be.

    This is a battle Islamism cannot win. Fundamentalist Islam is a medieval force. It has little to contribute to modern business, science or government, and subsists uneasily in today’s world. Profoundly and essentially reactionary, it hardly creates, innovates or invents, and appears chronically disorganised and prone to internal division and distrust. Islam in its more convinced forms may even be in its death throes – it is too early to say.

    We should stand well clear. An imperium in its death throes can be a nasty beast; I am by the same token nervous that the American empire may lurch dangerously around for decades to come. For the rest of us, as we contemplate these dysfunctional beasts, the best advice is that offered to his country (when the US really was at a zenith) by president Harry Truman, as the Soviet imperium headed for its afternoon: containment, not confrontation, is the wisest policy.

    Matthew Parris, a former British Conservative MP, is a columnist for The Times and The Spectator in Britain, from which this is reprinted.

  155. Chase

    Kairosfocus:

    Do you have respect for any other religion,other than yours?

    Do you respect the fact that others have chosen ,other religions,and believe in their hearts that this is theirs to follow?

    Do you accept that there are some of us who are not religious?

    Can you just answer the 3 questions with a short yes or no answer please?

  156. Bimbro

    Hi, ‘True Native’, and thanks for the prayers. I’m afraid that the situation has changed considerably, since the time which you described, above. Now, EVERYBODY, HATES the ‘West Indians’ (including those Irish, Jews and Asians to which you referred!) especially West Indian MEN because of that same ‘n0-nonsense’ attitude to which you referred of the Jamaicans . I’m afraid that ‘no-nonsense’ attitude has translated itself into a tsunami of Jamaican crime ever since they first started coming here in the 50s and 60s. I know, I did n’t indulge but grew up listening to their ‘boasting’ about who they’d cut last night and all the other s**t they used to talk. I don’t need to remind you of the spate of shootings which we’ve had recently, especially of and by black youngsters – you don’t need to ask if the vast majority of them were Jamaicans or of Jamaican origin! The fact of the matter is that everybody, including our own african ‘brothers and sisters’ are so hateful of West Indians now that nobody wants to know us, especially the men and keep well away from us unless they can’t absolutey help it and then they perform whatever task they’re obliged to do with an air of resentment. And, of course, they don’t know the difference between Jamaicans and small islanders so we (especially the men) all suffer ignominious contempt, as a result, thanks to our Jamaican ‘friends’ and their criminal tendencies.

    I’ll give you an example; I’ve ditched the car and took a cab this morning to go somewhere. The driver was a Grenadian. Mind you, unlike years ago, you don’t see West Indian mini-cab drivers in London, anymore – not more than you could count on the fingers of one hand in a week! The pig opened the car door pulled back the seat and continued reading his paper completely, oblivious to me, his passanger. When I challanged him, he told me some s**t but, I assure you that had I been a member of virtually, any other racial group that he would n’t have behaved in such a discourteous, way and he, a Grenadian, whose country was flattened by the hurricane the other day, and I bet that Bim among others, were stupid enough to give them loads of financial and other, aid! So now even the small islanders are hating their own kind too, as well as our black women hating our black men! Black men have, seemingly, long shown a preference here, for white women, although I hasten to add, not in my case!

    ‘True Native’, to tell you the truth, Britain is hell on earth for West Indian males, unless you happen to be particularly, fortunate in looks, youth or to have a spanking career but the way Tony Blair talks you would think it was paradise. As for whether I’ll stick it out, Lord only knows but thanks for your prayers. We can’t even go out at night now for fear of being stabbed or shot because some cretin mistook you for a member of some gang or other and also, need to be cautious even during the day and I think Arthur likes to follow Blair’s example. God help you all in Bim, if he succeeds.

    Don’t be fooled by those seemingly, ‘peace-loving’ muslims. They’re just waiting until their numbers are large enough and then you’ll see the real them, that’s if they have n’t started already, in Bim.

    As for the Brits going to live in Bim while treating us so despicably, over here – well, you can guess what I think about that! If I had my way there would n’t be any Brits living in Bim, AT ALL!

    Thanks for your prayers friend, I need them, living in this currently, ‘s**t-hole’ of a country, thanks to Blair and his pathetic, policies! Oh, yes, and where does he go to holiday? The final insult, why Bim, of course!

    Hope your friends manage the re-settlement to Bim, OK but then I hear there’s a certain resistance to returnees there. Seems you can’t win!

  157. True Native

    Bimbro, nice chatting with you. Actually, I know what you’re talking about when you say the situation has drastically changed in the U.K. I was in London last year and I witnessed many aspects of that change. Yes, Jamaicans have given other West Indians a bad name throughout the world, but I will still maintain that if they hadn’t been so brazen (or perhaps bombastic!) in the initial stages, things would have been worse for all West Indians in Britain. I see the police recently raided a terrible crack house somewhere in the Lambeth area, run by Jamaicans.
    You are right about the resistance to returnees here. You want to know the truth? It is based on jealousy and envy. Also, British/Bajan Blacks are well-mannered and have a positive work attitude. They use three almost unheard of words in Barbados – “please” and “thank you”! Some of the younger ones (children and grandchildren of Bajans who went to England in the 60’s and 70’s) who took up jobs here were so disgusted by the work attitudes and bad manners of their Bajan co-workers that they packed up and went back to England! Oh, boy, what a topsy-turvy world we live in. You take care, Bimbro, and don’t let it get you down.

  158. Rumplestilskin

    The Golden Bough:

    Excellent narrative. Indeed, many analysts are recognising that the next ‘superpower’ is/ will be China and many companies and countries are rushing to the bandwagon.

    Asia including India and China are moving up and economically is where USA will suffer its downfall, not, religious.

  159. Rumplestilskin

    By the way. Ironic how everyone ‘celebrated’ on the ‘fall’ of the Soviet Union, but now the Western world is faced with serious economic challenges, putting question marks on the overall effectiveness of its own ideology generally.

    Although many argue that it is still the best system to date, nevertheless for every positive there is a negative and vice versa.

    The ‘fall’ of the Soviet Union gave rise to a situation in which the West then had to create more justification for policies than just being ‘anti-communist’.

    And now the other major ‘communist labelled’ state i.e. China becomes the upcoming superpower.

    Always beware of a shift in balance, some unexpected results follow.

    But if you understand the negative/ positive & action/reaction concept, then the surprise will be less.

    Finally, I guess its a good thing that Barbados has maintained diplomatic & trading relations with China for many years.

  160. Rumplestilskin

    Bimbro & True Native,

    Although your posts reflect your own valid experiences, may I suggest in terms of one thing that you might have missed?

    Britain allowed immigrants in the 60’s for one thing, economic development. Transport and other industries (postal) would not be where they are today without West Indian immigrants, as you know.

    Likewise, immigration allows a measure of economic growth that would otherwise not take place so quickly.

    Canada for example is trying to allow ‘skilled’ immigrants to improve is demographics. I take your point that their definitions may justify the use of this policy, by their selection policy.

    Nevertheless, unless you take the view of Norman Tebbitt, who had no use for West Indians despite all of their valuable input to Britain, immigration can be good for both the country and those entering for a new life.

    I disagree that the Asian immigration to England was bad.

    The Asian population in England generally has a high work ethic, at least those not inculcated into the British way of life but those retaining some of their parents ethics.

    So what if they purchased much real estate and other assets. It is their right.

    No?

    We must keep an open mind.

  161. Straight talk

    As in the UK immediately post-war, so in Bim today.
    Increased national prosperity creates many lower paid occupations that the increasingly affluent indigenous population are unwilling to , or unwillingly fill.
    English travel the world to seek greener pastures, Bajans do so too from Panama to UK and nowadays Canada and US.
    Any labour shortage in any market has always been filled by workers willing to move to improve their lives.
    Barbadians are proud and thankful of their expat
    relatives ( and their remittances ) all around the world.
    So we must never begrudge our fellow West Indians this same opportunity, taking up the slack here in Barbados, and hopefully providing the engine for growth that our forefathers did for more developed nations in their time of need.

  162. Bimbro

    Thanks, again for your relevant, reply ‘True Native’. I find it near-impossible to believe that any nation can function without the use of the two basic courtesies of saying, ‘thank you’ and ‘please’. If that’s the way that Barbadians want to behave then I shall, most certainly, finish with them! The idea is to become more, sophisticated not to revert to animal-type behaviour!

    Best wishes, ‘True Native’.

  163. Citizen First (and others):

    First, in my last remark, I have made a general observation on the suicidal state of the intelligentsia in the Caribbean [and beyond across the West actually] which is sadly backed up by a lot of general and direct experience.

    Note: I am not taking on any one particular religious outlook — many of the implicated happen to be “Christian,” indeed, even seriously not merely nominally so. [You should have heard some of the screams when the students in the course I linked from saw what they had taken on! But, they soon realised that they were making a quantum leap in level of approach, which is always painful . . .]

    What I AM indicting — and most insistently and without apology, so — is our education system and linked institutions that hire the graduates [who should have long ago seriously demanded a very different product and sat down on the educators and civil servants until serious change happened]. I do so as one with all sorts of pieces of paper from our leading secondary and tertiary institutions, and having taught in some of them, too.

    Based on observation and analysis on campus and int he real-world workforce and also in trying to address real-life issues in the community, by and large our intelligentsia is those who are good at passing set-piece exams with routine Qs and A’s. In short, those who are good at gab and are good at memorising have the advantage in getting into gatekeeper positions. [But, who is setting the texts and Q’s, why? How do we know the set-piece answers are “right”?]

    As a result, when we confront a non-routine and unfamiliar situations, we panic and try to reduce them to the familiar. A former colleague of mine summed it up aptly in her advice to a recent High School graduate trying to go to work in the local civil service: “look-back work.” Go reduce the new to the old patterns and crib a right answer, from memory [or from a crib-sheet].

    I remember trying to ask many bright people from our edu systems: how does an argument work? [If you don’t know the difference between persuasion and soundness, you are easy meat for the manipulators . . .] Asking: why is what is right right, and why is what is wrong wrong is even worse. [Hint: cf Kant’s Categorical Imperative on the sustainability of maxims in a community. E.g if everyone routinely lies, or passes counterfeit money, or rubber cheques, or similar, is a functioning community likely to result?]

    Yet worse, we compound the problem by rewarding blind conformity to power — even our radicals are simply reading form a different “holy writ.” [Nowadays, often in the more unsound parts of the Internet . . . as Dr Tafari’s attempts on April 30 to use a long discredited skeptic to assert claimed parallels on Krishna and Christ will show. Even a first, Wikipedia check — and I am not hereby endorsing Wiki — will at once expose the want of soundness.]

    But now, we are facing an unprecedented set of challenges as a region: an emerging global age dominated by the snowballing decay of the West, the surge of Islamism, and the challenge of the South to rise up to take over global leadership. This is not routine, and routine resorts to Christian bashing simply will not cut it. [BTW CF: you will see that I have spoken to this frame consistently,a nd have responded to those who have attacked the man instead of addressing sobering challenges we face. “He hit BACK first” is not a sound objection.]

    I trust that makes my context clear enough.

    GEM of TKI

    PS, On worldviews selection, have long since plunked for serious and explicit comparative difficulties analysis. This I have done and to my surprise in some respects have ended up as a more or less orthodox Christian. It seems the old Fathers, who were in fact philosophically far more sophisticated than the many who now mock them, got a few things right. [Note too, I have nowhere in this tread made any reference to the central warranting argument of the Christian faith, or the progressivist- secularist one or the Islamic one or the generic pantheist one for that matter. In short I have NOT been addressing worldviews choice. Apperception inappropriately at work again . . .]

  164. Onlookers:

    Observe the all but utter want of serious response on the merits. [One highly commendable exception . . . by way of an excerpted article form a part of the world that does “get it,” Australia.]

    What is that telling usin light of what I just pointed out?

    Now, on a few points of note:

    1] DFX: “ROTF . . .”

    “Lost in the laugh” is ALSO a fallacy.

    And, description of an animist survival in our culture is not name-calling. But, labelling people “fanatics” in a context where an unwarranted, invidious comparison to murderous terrorists is likely to be inferred, is.

    2] GB on rotting empires . . .

    At last, something to get the teeth into!

    The problem, though is that the history of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in C5 [and nearly so in C3] in the face of the influx and invasions of the Germanic barbarians, is that it is a lot easier to knock down a building than it is to build it up.

    Do you think that Mr bin Laden or the 19 hijackers could have designed and build the jetliners they abused, or even the WTC buildings they knocked down?

    In short, when a civilisation loses both the compass and the steel in its soul, it is vulnerable and the vultures gather and peck at it until it expires. Doesn’t matter that the vultures can’t build, all they need to know is how to harry and destroy a weakened victim.

    Descent into a new dark ages is all too possible, and one scenario for that is “what would happen if one morning in 2009, Manhattan NY, DC, Miami, London’s City and central Paris were to all go up in smoke within 1 hour, through coordinated suicide nuke terrorist attacks?” Then, imagine that say Mr Ahmadinejad were to come on the air globally and announce that any retaliatory strikes against Islamic targets globally would be regarded as a provocation to nuke another 100 say Western cities chosen at random from the following list. What would happen?

    Global decapitation and dislocation, political, financial, military, that’s what. Nor should we brush this aside as merely an unrealistic plot-line from a new Tom Clancy novel. (FYI, the 9/11 attacks were shockingly close to the closing scenes in an early 1990’s Tom Clancy novel! Maybe, inspired by them . . .)

    Our job out here in the Caribbean as its educated people, is:

    1] to help us steer the world towards averting such a horror if possible, and if not,

    2] to prepare to survive without being reduced under a new set of barbaric slave masters.

    Sadly, I don’t find any serious public discussion of how to do that out there in our region.

    [And yes, consider this a new type of exam: “pose five interesting questions, 60 marks. Attempt solutions to two of same, 40 marks.” I have threatened to set this as an exam, more than once! Doubt that I could get this by the moderators though.]

    3] Chase:

    Kindly go look in the mirror, then look at what you have done above, then come back on the questions you ask.

    Onlookers, my many friends of highly diverse worldviews do not find that I hold their views in contempt. [Look at my remarks on comparative difficulties in the long since linked lecture to see why.]

    4] Rumpel:

    Laying aside for the moment on unfinished business and apologies, I am one of those who predicts “China wins, “over the next 5 decades.

    But, also noting that China is rapidly trending Christian,and by that time will have passed the 25 – 30+% point that historically is a tipping point.

    Prester John II.

    5] “Ironic how everyone ‘celebrated’ on the ‘fall’ of the Soviet Union”

    Not at all ironic: it was the linear extension of the Czar’s “prison of nations.” Just ask the Poles, Hungarians and Czechs on that.

    We are entitled to celebrate the ending of a tyranny.

    But also, the price of that victory was cultural and spiritual exhaustion of the West. In 628, when Byzantium finally defeated Parthia but exhausted itself in the attempt, that opened the way for the first military expansions of Islamic power beyond Arabia, within 10 years.

    That is the exact pattern that bin Laden et al are looking to, and they are making the sort of calculation in the scenarios above. Indeed, had the decapitation strike on that fateful Tuesday morning six years back been a bit more successful [e.g hitting the Congress too . . . ], they would have had a much more “successful” result.

    Though, I think US retaliation would have been far more ruthless and immediate.

    When I heard that they sortied the Aircraft Carriers and had then “patrolling” the E Coast of the US, my immediate reaction was, “oh sure . . .” (Those are platforms for global projection of power. They were heading for nuke strike launch points at 40 knots, as were all the subs [30 knots] and bombers [500 knots]. We plainly came within a whisker of nuke war on that day . . .)

    The clincher on that? Mr Bush was put into Looking Glass mode — that’s nuke strike launch mode. That is why he was taken to key SAC HQs.

    That is part of why I think we are heading into a wild and potentially horrifically bloody ride over the next 50 years or so . . .

    A ride our education systems — formal and informal — have by and large not equipped us to manage. So, we now have to do some quick studying if we are going to survive in any way as a region that is worth surviving.

    Wising up to the potential agendas and tactics of ALL the major players on the global chessboard is a first step.

    GEM of TKI

  165. PS: Daniel Pipes reports good news — two million person marches protesting Islamist radicalism — on the moderate Muslim front from Pakistan and Turkey: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4497 (But also cf here.)

    GEM of TKI

  166. Chase

    After going through all that reading……..still cant find the answers to the 3 questions asked……guess your silence is as good an answer as any.

  167. Yardbroom

    “Bare truth can often conquer ornate eloquence”

    Petrach Francesco 1304-1374

  168. DFX

    Kairo,

    Let’s give the Muslims a break for a while.
    Let’s go after the Hindus now.

    Pastor beaten for sharing Jesus.
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=74f_1178714284

    Seems maybe this anti-Christian is not just Islamic now.

    Awaiting your comments. And how come you haven’t touch Young Hutchinson’s article in the Nation yet? I’m really looking forward to your take on it.

    Later

    DFX

  169. Pig

    Chase, hello: Yes to all three of your questions.

    Moving on:

    Many have ability yo accept that true locally interpreted Islam, by a local majority of Muslims is wishing to be peaceful.

    However, we have shown that fundamentalism exists in Barbados, and is not accepting of everyone’s view of these things, including other Muslims, and the society at large. We have asked our own questions, and we reiterate, because like you, we really do wish for answers and solutions.

    May 7 request:

    Just as Hitler misguidedly murdered Jews, modern day extremists also are prepared to kill those of other religions.

    I find the Manhaj posts frightening and illogical in today’s modern world. They are archaic interpretations. Most religions have gone forward and away from ths. The extremists hang on to it.

    Moderate Muslims on this thread have said that the Muslim community is peaceful, and it appears that there are prominent Muslims reading/ blogging this, so the local community is aware. These are the good cops.

    However, challenged by some posters to plan for how we all can prevent extremist indoctrination of those like Salafi Manhaj (the bad cop), we hear nothing, only the insistance that the community is peaceful.

    We want very much, all religions, to accept the Muslim community as equals and embrace in brotherhood/friendship; but we do not hear how extremism will be stopped.

    Because in the same way that it is wrong for any of us to accuse the Muslim community, it should be important for the Muslim community to realise the posted threads by Manhaj are only an INDICATION of a larger issue that is NOT peaceful, and to come out and state how local extremism will be erased.

    Why won’t good cop help yet? Is good cop afraid of bad cop already? And if so, why should we not also be threatened?

    We call to the Muslim community to examine and to outline what it will do against violent extremist doctrine that is contrary to proper local interpretation of Islamic belief? We want to hear about work towards non-violence.

    Otherwise we must conclude that there are at least two threads to the local community who ignore each other. It is not enough to say Islam is peaceful. We see, and we understand that there are others.

    And if this is so we have a problem. Good cop is front line.

    Bajan Muslim, I am sorry to ask you, but please tell the community of Barbados and formulate the plan for promoting moderacy, and the plan to suppress the extremism from the land?

    Salafi Is Saudi, and it is said local Islam is of different origin. Will this lead to separate Imams? Are there already such?

    How will you prevent the Salafi Manhaj type and friends from indoctrinating and preaching? Please respond to this?

    We do not wish to be Manhaj guinea pigs, nor our children, after years of Salafism.”

    PEACE 4 all

  170. Chase

    DFX:
    Had a grand time at Players last night,didnt know it was so much fun.Trust Bajan Reporter to find the cool spots.

    That pub quiz is something else..dont know where the questions come from ,even surprised myself by knowing some answers
    .
    So for a good lime ,check it out next Tuesday.

    Until then stay safe friend and keep off the leg.

  171. Chase

    Wait a minute……….my questions were directed to Kairosfocus ,not Pig…….are you the same?

    If so be careful…posting under a different name to create discussion is an offence on BFP.Punishable by
    a lengthy ban.

  172. Bimbro

    ‘True Native’, if you’re still on this thread; something just occured to me. Please correct me if I’m wrong as I may be missing something.

    You said the Bajans don’t know to say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ but the other day were hosting a cricket world cup tournament, right?!

    OMG!!!! (Oh my God)!

    Did Arthur ‘miss a trick’ here then?!!!

  173. Yardbroom

    We delude ourselves, when we attach an importance to our writings, which their substance do not merit, or when we believe or imply that our region has the world clout to influence global decisions. That is not to suggest we should not speak, if it gives vent to our feelings and allows us to participate in the debate, but to suggest:

    ” our job out here in the Caribbean as its educated people, is

    1] to help steer the world towards averting such a horror if possible, and if not,

    2] to prepare to survive without being reduced under a new set of barbaric slave masters”

    Perhaps – and I use the word perhaps so my view is open to challenge and not with the certainty other posters postulate – we should ensure that our borders are guarded not from missiles but from the thinking that corrodes and corrupts, often under the guise of religious doctrine.

    As I have stated often before, the greatest threat to our wellbeing is “religion.” There is a sustainable argument that it is not religion but the advocates of it, that might be the case but I must concentrate on the reality that surrounds me and my fellow citizens.

    It is of no use assailing me with the doctrine of “peace” if the disciples of the creed seek to destroy me and my family, but you say they are not true disciples, but then I am forced to ask, what is it within the core of the creed that influences true/false disciples to such acts.

    I will make no attempt to outreligion other religions that only leads to justification for supremacy and into the black avenues of past misdeeds and barbaric teachings.

    We should not concede by small increments, what others say is a core of their faith, when those of the same faith even in Countries where that faith is the majority faith, those practises are not followed.

    We must be careful not to set precedents, which are divisive and will ultimately lead to our demise, after an undermining of the cohesive elements of our society.

  174. DFX

    Chase,

    Only read it this morning. The little one was not so good last night. Had a roti from the little purple guy and was up all night in front the ivory altar. Thank fully he was all bright this morning and looking forward to going to school. I on the other hand was out of it. LOL

    DFX

  175. Chase

    DFX:

    Wish you both the best.

  176. Attn all, pls see my remark in the latest anti-Islamic diatribe… There are “terrorists” in all faiths, ok? Did not Buddhist monks in Vietnam treat themselves as their own hostage? Then burn that victim? Ariel Sharon & Moishe Dayan victimised Palestinians constantly and only Yasir Arafat stood his ground! This targetting a specific religion is just so much hype to build circulation!

    Anyhow – Yo, Chase, glad you dig Players! LOL, you can make nxt Tues or you gone then?

  177. Pig

    Not kairos………….pig here…….. waiting…………

  178. Hi all:

    First, Pig is not at all the same as me.

    BFP has doubtless checked and seen that my IP address is from another EC Caribbean Island, and it is rather unlikely that there is a second participant from this low population island. I can safely say that P’s IP address is probably not the same as mine! (So the hint of misbehaviour is a case of unjustified jumping to suspicious conclusions in absence of credible evidence, again raising the issue of underlying attitudes towards those who differ with the in-crowd in this blog’s comments . . .)

    On a few points of note:

    1] CHASE:

    You have forfeited the right of civil dialogue due to insistent, repeated uncivil conduct. THAT is why I have not answered your questions directly. You owe an apology or two, having first looked hard in the mirror.

    That is the context of my comment: “Kindly go look in the mirror, then look at what you have done above, then come back on the questions you ask.Onlookers, my many friends of highly diverse worldviews do not find that I hold their views in contempt.”

    That materially answers all three of your questions with empirical evidence added in.

    In short, P’s answers are identical to mine.

    And, it is YOUR behaviour above that shows contempt, caricatured stereotyping and animosity, by projecting false assumptions and accusations and then insisting on them in the teeth of correction and evidence to the contrary. Sorry, you plainly need to look in a mirror long and hard before asking such Q’s again.

    –> P’s further response is quite reasonable on points, especially the good-bad cop negotiating strategy implications. (The bad cop so intimidates that one gives to the good cop what he wants . . .)

    2] DFX:

    I have never said that Hindus are blameless, or Buddhists etc, or any other variety of humans. (We are all fallen, fallible and finite after all.)

    But the focus of this thread is on a particular evident and manifest issue that needs to be addressed, one that has in its global manifestations, dominated headlines for decades leading n global military confrontation.

    Note how it simply has not been properly addressed by Islamic or Islamist spokesmen. The latter are counting on our moral confusion — loss of compass — to lead us to bury our collective heads in the sand. (It is so comfortable to resort to look-back ideas and look-back patterns. But business as usual ain’t going to work in this new chaotic world order!]

    I note that my remark and link on two 1-million person moderate muslim demonstrations [made by one of the much maligned neo-cons I believe] were not taken up . . .

    3] YB: “As I have stated often before, the greatest threat to our wellbeing is “religion.” There is a sustainable argument that it is not religion but the advocates of it, that might be the case but I must concentrate on the reality that surrounds me and my fellow citizens.”

    The problem with the term “religion” is that it seriously equivocates, which is loaded with rhetorical traps.

    There are vastly different religions out there and in particular judaeo-Christian faith traditions are not at all to be lazily equated to islamist radicalism. Beyond that, the evidence of the past 220 years since post-Christian worldviews have achieved state power across the West, is that secularist ideologies are often as dangerous as the worst cases of religiously motivated fanaticism. For, ALL ideals are capable of perversion to serve evil.

    And in the particular case in view, the problem is that Islam as a whole faces a challenge that there are unfortunately major elements in its foundational teachings and examples and history that lend themselves seriously tot he current problems with the Islamists.

    So, outsiders such as ourselves have to be particularly careful to see to it that the elements that lead or at least point down that road are not allowed in unwarily, as the issue of the Saudi funded textbooks raises.

    4] Can the Caribbean help avert disaster?

    I think that in international fora the Caribbean happens to be the largest single bloc of democratic states in the South, last time I checked.

    If we are serious about it, we can have a significant voice — as opposed to a mere echo. (For instance, I thought our regional response on the nuclear transhipment issue has long been amateurish and ill-informed at best. A lot of other cases may easily be adduced. Sadly.)

    Cheers

    GEM of TKI

  179. PS, to Mr Bourne:

    I addition to your distractor on the irrelevant- to- this- thread Palestine-Israel dispute, motive mongering does not move the substantial issue off the table.

    Kindly, look at the above original post. Whatever motives you may ascribe to BFP, it raises a serious issue that needs to be addressed on the merits.

    Here is the summary, again, on what is relevant to Barbados and other islands in the Caribbean dealing with Saudi-funded Madrassas. For, after a few dozen red-herring chasing posts, the proper focus tends to get buried:

    a] There is credible evidence that supports that the Saudis, based on Q 5:59 – 60 and as manifested in official sermons over many years [cf citations and links above on this], have taught in the name of Islam, the premise that Jews and/or Christians are descendants of apes and pigs.

    b] There is reason to understand that certain text-books used in Saudi funded schools teach this dehumanising and demonising doctrine that is an obvious precursor to hate and murder. [Cf on this the recent sad incident in Turkey . . . is that what a “justified” killing of non-Muslims looks like in IslamIST eyes? How do our region’s more moderate muslims respond to this atrocity, and on what basis?]

    c] There is a serious and as yet unanswered question as to whether these books are being imported into and used in Saudi-funded education in the name of Islam here in the Caribbean, in Barbados in particular.

    d] In association with this, there is a serious issue based on Q9:5, 29 ff, etc and associated Hadiths, history and founding examples, that there is a general problem with militancy and aggression in the classical form of Islam. The IslamISTS of our day — thankfully not the majority of muslims — draw on these sources and precedents,to justify what on objective terms is murder of innocents in promotion of an agenda of domination.

    e] To this, there is a want of strong and dominant response within Islam, leading to the need for massive reformation and true enlightenment as Ms Ali et al call for. [Cf the link above to her interview with Hannity and Colmes]

    f] We as concerned outsiders, therefore also need to be cautious in defence of our security, even here in the Caribbean. [This includes the concern raised in the original post above, on what is inadvertently revealed by the remark in the earlier thread by Bajan Muslim: Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly.”]
    ____________

    That is what I have noted on above, and the pattern of distractors, strawmen and attacks to the man that has come up — and has continued, even now descending into open incivility! — does not speak well on how we are processing the relevant information here as a region.

    GEM of TKI

  180. Chase

    1] CHASE:

    You have forfeited the right of civil dialogue due to insistent, repeated uncivil conduct. THAT is why I have not answered your questions directly. You owe an apology or two, having first looked hard in the mirror.

    An apology?

    Please……hold your breath!!

  181. Yardbroom

    Kairosfocus
    In order for us to go forward we have to be speaking about the same thing, I have taken religion to mean:

    ” belief in worship of or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny”

    Of course there is room for expansion to the above, but there is enough there for us to agree on.

    You said” There are vastly different religions out there and in particular judaeo-christian faith traditions are not at all to be lazily equated to Islamist radicalism”

    I do not think anyone will equate the major religions with Islamist radicalism, note I have not used your word “lazily” as I have made the assumption your thinking is alert to the discussion in hand.

    I believe main stream Muslims have not done enough to distance themselves from islamist radicals. You cannot say they are my brothers, therefore I am reluctant to criticise them and when you are attacked because of your silence, claim people are anti Muslim.

    Muslims must have the courage to say – and I mean courage- the radicals have used the words of the Prophet to further their own agenda, it is an agenda riding on the backs of our faith, there is a dichotomy between what they believe and what we believe.

    Until Muslims are prepared to stand up to their own islamist radicals – and Islamist they are- they will be bracketed with them.

    You might argue, that is not fair to the Muslim Religion but to seek to be fair to the Islamist Radicals and the Muslim Religion in general at the same time, is impossible.

    We have to separate the Muslim Religion from the Muslim Radicals in our minds, but alast it is for the Muslims to physically and mentally separate themselves from them.

    Separate mosques is a good start, they must bring order to their own house before they bring order to their neighbours.

  182. Hirsi Is Right

    Hirsi Ali says that there is no “radical” muslim religion, that the muslim religion as it is laid out in the Koran is as the “radicals” say. Hirsi says the Koran is the problem and until it is reformed, the “radicals” will keep coming.

  183. DFX

    Kairo,

    “2] DFX:

    I have never said that Hindus are blameless, or Buddhists etc, or any other variety of humans. (We are all fallen, fallible and finite after all.)”

    I never said you did! I’m just pointing out that it’s not just Muslims that are targetting “Christians” But I’m glad that we can finally agree that we are “all fallen, fallible and finite” 😉

    “I note that my remark and link on two 1-million person moderate muslim demonstrations [made by one of the much maligned neo-cons I believe] were not taken up . . .”

    Sorry, I was still in shock that you had actually accepted that not all Muslims are radicals. LOL Not really I just had the chance to read the article. But I’m hoping that this is a sign of positive change coming to the Islamic World.

    Peace

    DFX

  184. Onlookers

    Plainly there as usual is no substantial onward discussion on the main subject in focus. That bears eloquent testimony to the force of the point first raised by BFP many weeks ago now.

    I see several onward remarks, and will note onthem briefly:

    1] Re Chase

    An examination of his pattern of comments will reveal that he assumed and asserted unwarranted, damaging remarks, has refused to take correction, and now refuses to apologise for such improper remarks.

    In short, case proves: he has taken himself out of the zone of mutually respectful civil dialogue.

    2] YB on defining religion:

    First, there are many definitions on offer, and there are recognised religions that have no necessary reference to a deity or to liturgy relative to such a diety.

    Observe even so humble a source as WIki’s stab at definition:

    “A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term “religion” refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.”

    That takes in a pretty broad swath I’d say. In short, a religion is a formally or informally institutionalised worldview with a community of support, and a tradition of comon core belief and routinised praxis of one form or another. Here, pardon my cynicism in viewing Marx as the holy writ of Marxism, and the Museums of Natural History as the temples and places of pilgrimage for evolutionary materialism, and the media and classrooms as the community of teaching for secularist progressivism, with the popularisers, profs and teachers as the various classes of the priesthood, and so on.

    Furthermore, there are worldviews aplenty that have sufficiently overlapping characteristics that they serve as religion-substitutes. [Indeed, that is the context in which the USSC has discussed Humanism as religion.]

    But the issue at root is not one of definition, it is that –a s Alister McGrath aptly said in rebutting Dawkins and his [sadly philosophically illiterate] “The God Delusion,” ANY ideal may be twisted into destructive forms. For of course we are all fallen, fallible, finite and too often ill-willed.

    In the case in view in this thread, the concern is that the foundational texts and teachings, as well as examples set by Mohammed and his close followers, and the resulting foundational history of Islam are unfortunately replete with elements and patterns that Islamist radicals may cite as authority for hteir intents. So, the issue within islam is to isolate these elements and find a path to effective reformation. Hopefully,t hesentiment in a the past two million man marches will have some impact down that line.

    Hirsi Ali and others have discussed this.

    3] DFX:

    I have always held that we are fallen, fallible and finite, for so long as I have been a reasonably orthodox, Biblically based Christian. (The doctrine of salvation is anchored to dealing with our sinfulness . . .)

    So it is not at all any recent acknowledgement extracted from me — cf earlier remarks in this thread and in the always linked!

    Nor have I ever denied that others than Muslims may and do attack Christians. Indeed, I have even cited Equiano’s cutting point on “nominal Christians” in his Interesting Narrative.

    But all of this is off point. THe substantial matters for this thread are a specific case, which requires our serious and sober attention. Ducking away to other possible but irrelevant cases smacks of red herrings dragged across the track.

    4] “Shocked”

    REALLY!

    I suppose you have overlooked my having pointed out long ago that we deal here with a radicalised 10 – 15% by reasonable estimates, and that Islam is NOT to be regarded as a monolith.

    Have you not seen that my hopefulness in the situation [duly laced with some doubts as to its feasibility . . .] is for Muslims to wake up and reform their faith so that the dangerous elements are definitively and authoritatively repudiated?

    The problem is that there is enough inthe foundational teachings and examples for the bin Ladens to challenge more irenic interpretations and call them apostate, thus making the moderate muslims fit targets for jihad. This, sadly, we see allover Baghdad – and the wider ME. (Indeed, the median and perhaps even all the way to the 90 percentile victim of Islamist violence is a fellow Muslim.)

    But the onward problem is as Pig shows, that we may see here the good cop bad cop effect, AKA the Stockholm/ Patty Hearst syndrome.

    The result is that some may put on the mask of moderateness in order to play good cop and extract concessions from reaction to the fears of the bad cop. (In short some “moderates” may not be as moderate as we like to think.)

    And , that is a serious problem when we have to deal wth the interaction of Dawah and Jihad. [BTW, the former, the term for the Islamic “missions” to the West etc, is actually a call to surrender, strictly speaking. Thence the issue of those Saudi Pigs and Apes, Quranically anchored references in the textbooks used in the Dawah’s Madrassas . . .]

    GEM of TKI

  185. kairos? Who die and mek U God? I have had discussions on this Blog and when the idiots refuse to apologise or come fwd – I just ignore and still chat, grow up!

    Simple, face facts, ALL religions leave much 2 be desired in this sense – as soon as the message is sent by the messenger it gets corrupted by those who hear it selectively!

    The problem is ALL humans, apart from your STUPID, SNOTTY and RETROGRADE pomposity which can go to Tartarus, Gehenna, etc.

  186. DFX

    Kairo,

    Hope you are having a blessed day!

    “But all of this is off point. THe substantial matters for this thread are a specific case, which requires our serious and sober attention. Ducking away to other possible but irrelevant cases smacks of red herrings dragged across the track.”

    You are right! But my point here was not to cry down Christianity or to praise Islam. It was to point out that anybody with very little research can cause a major problem. As can be seen by the length of the posts that you have replied to me with. Sorry to say, but alot of what I posted was found by simply google-ing and cutting and pasting. I was trying prove that corrupt and twisted info is out there and easily accessible. But it was not me that twisted this blog into an anti-Muslim forum I was just trying to point out that even us Christians are not perfect.

    If you look at the Mickey Mouse posting you will see the name of an organization that I think we NEED to watch and watch carefully. It is my understanding that alot of these people are not born Muslim, but in fact converts and having talked to a few Muslims of Indian descent they prefer to not associate themselves with this group.

    Anyways, time to go to work. We need to figure out how/who we paying for the Oval LOL.

    Have a great day Kairo!

    DFX

  187. Chase

    HAHAHAHAHA!!

    Boy this guy is a piece of work …..I am glad to be out of it fah true.

    I guess to promote tollerance of all religions is really hard.

  188. DFX

    Chase,

    Having talked to a couple Muslims I made to understand that those guys are to be feared. I personally have not had any dealings with them, but only reporting what I have been told. As far as I’m concerned if they don’t bother me I won’t bother them. But I can tell you that more than a few of my Indian Muslim friends don’t 100% agree with those other guys. Not even 10% from what one guy said.

    Hope that clears the air.

    DFX

  189. partying

    those guys in harts gap are mostly a bunch of converts who are at odds with the indian muslims and who are being brainwashed by some people in england. i know for a fact from one of my indian muslim friends that he and some of the the community has complained t0 the authorities about this group and nothing has been done. the group in harts gap does not mix with the rest of the indian muslims and does not consider them “proper muslims”.

  190. DFX

    Thanks for the backup Partying.

    Funny thing I have to note here though is that I got my Koran from one of them about 8 years ago. Man I dug myself in deep on this one LOL.

    Kairo; I think you are wrong in your treatment of Chase. If you can admit that none of us are perfect and indeed we are all sinners, what right do you have to DEMAND and apology from Chase? I can see nothing wrong with what he has said. We need to tolerate every one. I’m sure that as an “orthodox” Christian you should be praying for him instead of trying to force an apology, forgiveness is after all the greatest gift we have been entrusted with as Christians.

    Like I said above, I’m made to understand that the local Indian Muslim Community is not comfortable with the teachings of the Hart’s Gap group, but up to the time of my writing this they have done nothing to me personally and I will give them the same respect I give anybody else. Should that change, my opinion of the “individual” responsible will change.

    Peace people,

    DFX

  191. Chase

    DFX:

    Thanks for the support….but its all good.I have always (check my posts) tried to push religious tolerance as a good way of averting the problems of the world.
    If others have no place for this then we are all doomed to the same fate.
    Funny he says he is an orthodox christian…..so was Ras Tafari Makonnen and boy did he have tolerance….not to mention patience.
    At the end of the day and at the end of his long ass speeches,he still cant deal with the fact that what I have said is pertinent to us all as humans.
    Trying to impress others with fancy words and lengthy replies just dont it in todays world.
    Show me how to change things,bring ideas…get to the point.Action not words!
    Thanks for the defense DFX but I think I can handle this.

    Try to make room if possible for the Players pub quiz Tuesday at 8 pm.
    Let me know if you have any time over the weekend…..longing for those beers man.
    Stay safe and be good.

  192. partying

    wow kairofocus wuh eva um iz dat u smokin i got tuh get my hands pun some coz i wan b able tuh write big long lectures too! or iz sumting u drinking? whatever um iz let me know so i can get all irie and go down de block and wax lyrical and talk down to de boyz!!!

  193. DFX

    Chase,

    Visa application has been submitted along with the required funds to secure it 😉 Have been roped into Mother’s Day activities starting from early tomorrow so this weekend is a bust for me. But Tuesday I’ll be there with beer belly to fill up.

    Take care my friend.

    DFX

  194. Chase

    Ok my friend……we are always at table one…..not that anyone can miss Bajan Reporter 🙂

  195. Okay:

    A few comments, noting again that plainly the substantial issues stand on the merits pretty much as I have summarised them:

    1] DFX, et al: Re Chase

    Thanks for your thoughts. A quick observation — I am not “demanding” an apology, I am observing that from the beginning C has indulged himself in slanderous namecalling and stereotyping, as can be seen above. He then resorted to questions that imply seriously deleterious implications. [Cf. his notorious three Q’s above, which are all too tellingly similar to “Have you stopped beating your wife?” I never started beating up on my wife, so I need not “stop”! ]

    On seeing that, I told him in effect that he needs to look in the mirror and make a fresh start. (Apologising to those whom you have plainly slandered, caricatured cruelly or unnecessarily hurt is a good start for that; or at least, that is what I was raised to believe.)

    Bottomline: attacks to the man do not address the substance on the merits, but serve to distract attention and poison the atmosphere of civil discourse.

    Aristotle — the sad fate of Socrates at the hands of hostile and ill-willed men being always in mind — long ago warned on that! [Cf my remarks on the phil toolkit as previously linked. And, Partying, I freely confess to the “crime” of having spent time in the College classroom, some of the work used therein I have linked — no need to pay the usual course fees . . . .]

    Mr Bourne’s onward remarks are, sadly, scarcely better. [BTW, he might wish to begin here to get a balancing view on the Israel-Palestine issue that will helpfully complement what is commonly available through the major media, typical profs and the usual pundits, but that is in the main off-topic.]

    For, I am not getting on a hypocritical high horse and moralising; I am making a factually and logically well-warranted observation based on evidence over a sustained period that Chase has consistently gone beyond the pale of civil discussion, and has refused to accept correction to his invidious stereotyping and false accusations. Such trollish behaviour, to say the least, is corrosive of civil dialogue.

    Rhetorically, such a tactic also serves the agenda of seeking to drag a discussion on a topic that is heading a way that Chase evidently does not like, off track. His persistent and insistent refusal to either retract unwarranted and personal remarks and to actually address the substantial matter on the merits, marks him out plainly.

    I cannot control BFP’s policy on trollish behaviour, as a mere commenter on occasion, but I can predict what toleration of such trollish behaviour will do, on long observation.

    Bad commenters drive out good, and the resulting level of commentary will not be worth paying attention to, save to find examples of the madness of crowds. Indeed, the circle of commenters will eventually “pull” and capture the overall tone and focus of the blog, destructively.

    2] Variants in Islam in Barbados, etc.

    It is not surprising to see that ethnic muslims and the wave of Dawah- recruited converts will have significant differences. For, ethnic forms of Islam have been shaped by generations of compromise to live on a sustainable basis in real-world environments — often, at the limits of previous waves of Jihad-driven conquest.

    That opens up two issues.

    First, the same radicalising process that is surging out in the Dawah is also working to radicalise ethnic Muslims all across the world, through appealing to the “purity” of Wahhabist Islam. Thus, the sort of compromises and moderating influences just mentioned are under pressure within the more traditional Muslim communities all across the world; based on appeals to the foundational texts and examples as already highlighted above.

    Second, the resulting tension opens the way for a reverse challenge to the Islamists. In short, as Daniel Pipes [who I linked above] has long said, the issue is the need for a critical mass in support of reformation within Islam that makes for an Islam that can live at peace with its neighbours.

    Meanwhile, we have to reckon that this process is happening across the world, and in that light take appropriate precautions given the destructive potential of the radical party.

    I trust that helps make matters a bit clearer [including giving further point to my notes above on the problems with our education system, and why we need to do something about it, fast].

    GEM of TKI

  196. H’mm:

    Remark in response “disappeared.”

    I will note briefly, and in part reconstructively:

    1] DFX et al re Chase:

    It is Chase who has falsely accused others and insistently refused to take back such words on being corrected. If you wish the future of BFP well, you would be well advised to seek to move the discussion and tone in a healthy direction; for, bad commentary drives out good.

    2] 2 types of Muslims

    Yes, the ethnically based forms reflect generations of compromise to live with non-Muslim neighbours. That unfortunately also makes it possible for “purist” radicalisers to challenge such forms based on appeals to the foundational texts and examples and history as noted.

    Thankfully, it also works the other way — unquestionable authentic Muslims can call for reformation based on a more balanced view of the world and the history and texts.

    But in the meanwhile we have to be vigilant in the interests of our own security.

    GEM of TKI

  197. Okay, it turned up after all . . .

  198. Follow-up:

    Further research turns up interesting results:

    1] Texts on Jews [and Christians, the other major part of “the people of the book”] Apes & Pigs in Quran:

    002.065
    YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you [Cf. vv 62 – 4 i.e these are Jews]who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.”

    002.066
    YUSUFALI: So We made it an example to their own time and to their posterity, and a lesson to those who fear Allah.

    007.166
    YUSUFALI: When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.”

    005.059
    YUSUFALI: Say: “O people of the Book! . . . .

    005.060
    YUSUFALI: Say: “Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!”

    –> A discussion in this FP symposium of experts is most enlightening on how this is transferred to today’s situation, especially to Jews of today. Notice how the teaching leads to a perception of the need to violently overthrow the demonic beasts who are descended form pigs and apes [spiritually or literally]. which in turn speaks to the issue of “justified” killing that is the focus of this thread.

    –> I have already documented above on how the teaching is evidently commonplace in Saudi contexts. The link on a 3 yo girl on IQRA TV, S Arabia quotes, is telling.

    –> Also, cf onward links that show on how the teachings are documented for a UK Saudi-funded school.

    2] Islam is not monolithic:

    Cf the further experts symposium here. The debate over pure Islam is revealing . . .

    GEM of TKI

  199. Bimbro

    You allow muslims in Bim? You need your heads examining!

  200. When remarks are so long down the page, I think BFP should add a “Back To Top” button, just an idea…

    Oh and Kairos? Most ppl are not going to look at so much long-winded research – you’ll be lucky if they decide to see what ALL the media houses are saying regarding the MidEast; as for the Socratic and Aristotlean approach to debate?

    This is the 21st century where the soundbite and mudsling fall into play, you’re a bit like the UK in 1776 when they used classical formation in battle and were slaughtered by the immigrant USA who adapted Native American guerrilla fighting to gain “Independence”

    BFP? Check “Guerrilla Mail”, that is something you may like, found it using FireFox’ StumbleUpon…

  201. Hi Ian:

    I see your:

    This is the 21st century where the soundbite and mudsling fall into play, you’re a bit like the UK in 1776 when they used classical formation in battle and were slaughtered by the immigrant USA who adapted Native American guerrilla fighting to gain “Independence””

    Quite an admission!

    However, a few notes are in order:

    1] On 1775 – 82 and all that:

    Actually, something like only 3% of the American troops in their Revolution used rifles, and but few serious engagements were won by rifle fire or unorthodox tactics. Indeed, the “rifles” of the 1770’s were often not even really rifles as a smooth-bore was often more useful to the frontiersman. The classic era of the Kentucky rifle was in the 1790’s . . . over a decade after the revolution.

    In short, the riflemen got the headlines and sound bites, but it was the ordinary American soldier armed with a smooth-bore musket, a bayonet and a steely resolve who actually usually won the day — when the Americans won on the field; their real strategy was to preserve a force in being and exhaust the British. For, the single-shot rifles of that day simply took far too long to reload, so the Brown Bess wielding British soldiers often could rush and bayonet them in short order on a serious battlefield. Cf the story of Washington’s defeats in and retreat from New York.

    You might also want to look up the story of the Prussian soldier, Von Steuben, who transformed the American army into a formidable conventional fighting force that was able to stand up to the British and Hessians on the open field. So with the aid of French regulars and backup from the French Navy, the Americans essentially produced a stalemate, and convinced the British that the war was not worth the cost to win it.

    –> Parallel for today: the Islamists are trying to exert the same basic strategy of exhausting and demoralising in order to get a retreat on the part of their opponents, which they are about to achieve it seems — at least for Iraq, which Al Qaeda plans to in part turn into the base to replace what was lost in Afghanistan, judging by current reports. [Iraq is one campaign in a global war in short . . .)

    –> But, there is also a big difference: the islamist-mahdist agenda is not a limited one, we are dealing with a religiously motivated world-conquest ideology. (BTW: This utterly contrasts with the ideology of the Christin faith, which at core is a world WITNESS religion — which is in part why the sins of Christendom are publicly paraded and reform movements keep on springing up across history. You are free to reject a testimony; you are not so free to ignore a conquerer. Just ask the Dhimmis over the past 1400 years on that. )

    2] More on the headlines-truth gap

    So, when you comment “This is the 21st century where the soundbite and mudsling fall into play” you inadvertently reveal the persistent gap between media-shaped perceptions and objective truth.

    As onlookers can easily verify, there is a reason why this thread refused to die, more than once it seems.

    Namely, there is an issue that we lack sound and solid information on the nature of the Islamist challenge in the Caribbean, and why we should take it seriously. So, whatever problems there may be on style and length, there is a genuine desire to learn about the underlying facts and issues, and supporting authentic evidence. (Which I have tried to provide. Note on this how the Islamic advocates have swiftly gone silent, and how others have sought to use distractors instead of challenging on the merits. Guess why, onlookers?)

    In short, the media and alleged experts have failed in the basic duty to give us a first, reasonably accurate and fair rough draft of history. This has serious potential consequences, as, those who don’t properly understand the past, are doomed to repeat its worst chapters.

    So, after all the mud has been slung and all the misleading soundbites have been repeated ad nauseum, the problem of facing the truth in light of the evidence will still remain.

    And, if we refuse to face the truth and change how we thinks and act in light of the truth, one day the truth may well be facing us, unprepared to meet it.

    Cheerio

    GEM of TKI

  202. Okay

    I made a few comments in response, but no note that they are “vanished” not even an in mod note.

    Basically, the account on the American Revolution is revealingly inaccurate — the history is backways around as actually it was after the Prussian soldier Von Steuben showed up and drilled the Americans that they could stand up to the British on the open field and hold their own. (Only about 3% of Americans used rifles and few serious engagements were won by riflemen.)

    This aptly illustrates the gap between headlines and soundbites and objective reality.

    The reason this blog thread has refused to die, again and again, is because it is going beyond the headlines, soundbites and mud slinging to examine in responsible details with sources the objective evidence.

    In the end, either we face the facts or the facts will face us. For those who do not accurately understand and respond to the past and current trends, are doomed to repeat the worst chapters of history.

    So, while I apologies for any infelicities of style and length, it is time for us to get serious.

    Cheerio

    GEM of TKI

  203. Citizen First

    Kairosfocus,

    Let’s assume agreement on the threat of Islamic fundamentalism, in particular the militant (violent) variety. What CONCRETE actions can (or should) the average citizen of BARBADOS take?

    By average I mean the simple wage earning, tax paying, mortgage ( and other debts)paying, with spouse and kids, get to vote once every five years or so, kind of citizen.

  204. Hi CF:

    You have asked a vital question, one that deserves a serious answer. (I note though that the matter is not just one of “assum[ptions],” there is serious evidence on the threat posed by the violent Islamists.)

    1] Mobocracy vs Responsible Democracy

    From C5 BC Athens on, it has been known that the vital vulnerability of a democracy is its consistent prone-ness to irresponsible mob rule driven by the destructive rhetoric of demagogues and other manipulators.

    So, the first duty of citizenship is to live towards the truth and the right, and in particular to insist on being accurately informed and to refuse to entertain issues other than on the merits. (And, public opinion is not just a once every five years thing, that is the audit time, and we need to make the follytricians know that we hold them strictly to account and insist on a true and fair view of their stewardship and proposals.)

    Here is Aristotle’s grim warning — the sad and utterly unjust fate of Socrates at the hands of his fellow Citizens patently in mind — on the public danger of destructive rhetoric, from his The Rhetoric Bk 1 Ch 2:

    “Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker’s personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . . .”

    As Mr Bourne inadvertently revealed, this is a major challenge for how our regional media functions, and for how we the people need to think, speak and act. To that end, I have prepared a grading sheet for our media and similar public voices, and I think we can learn how to use it fairly easily.

    There is also a basic primer on straight thinking similar to what I have often taught to 4th formers and up here, taking the risk of two links. (I have already long since linked a primer on more serious level analysis.)

    In short the Bajan and regional media — recall where CANA [what’s its new name, again . . .] etc have long been based — and follytricians must learn to fear; and then maybe they will begin to respect an informed, analytical, articulate, virtue-minded public that demands the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth from them.

    We the reasonably educated must lead by example in that, recognising that such leadership is costly. But, privilege entails duty. And, courage is to do duty in the teeth of danger.

    2] Understanding our times . . .

    Unless we understand our emerging global era, we will simply drift with every wind of doctrine and the cunning deceitful craftiness of the many manipulators on the international stage. (See if you can guess the allusion in that, I am dodging the ever-sniffing spam filter by not citing.)

    So, we must see that we of the Caribbean are the first cosmopolitan region in the world, one largely dominated by the people of the South, and the largest cluster of functioning democracies in the South. That makes us potentially vital on the global stage as bridging people with a credible voice.

    We need to understand the decay of the West triggered by its arrogant turning from the God of its Fathers, leading to a breakdown of moral common sense, and to paralysis in the face of mortal dangers from within and from without.

    That means that over the next generation our traditional alignments with the West and with its “progressive” forces, will not be viable. We have to determine that we the ORDINARY people in Barbados and the wider region will stand up in our own right, for the right, the true the wise and the sound. We will chart our own path.

    3] The global triangle of forces

    In the North, the waning secularised West. In the Middle East, the upsurging Islamists [with security implications for everyone]. In the South, the emerging — and BTW, Christian-dominated — world. In the middle, us.

    So we better realise we are a strategic target and potentially are decisive, so we should view overtures as potential Trojan horses — including BTW, that of the increasingly dictatorial regime in Venezuela, which has territorial ambitions in the region.

    So, we must be cautious in engaging the Secularists and their fellow travellers, the Islamists and the “leaders” of the South. And we must make our follytricians know that that is what we want.

    4] Islamism and Islam

    We have to go bone up on history and linked ideological, geo-political and even theological issues, as what was formerly irrelevant has suddenly become a major challenge. [Cf my always linked for a basic backgrounder.]

    That means we have to vote with our money and our voices, demanding a much better quality of information from our media figures, profs and pundits — not to mention pulpits and politicians.

    It also means that given the potential for violence on the part of Islamists, we have to insist on proper security measures, and on being alert to possible threats and subversion [including by manipulating our police, our courts, our laws and our governments and media]. Sorry, the time for complacency is past.

    If necessary, some of us ordinary Pops and Moms in emergencies may have to constitute ourselves an impromptu militia unit and launch even a suicidal assault to defend the wider community, as did the heroes of Flight 93. (Sadly, we are all on the front lines now, in a global war where tourism centres have been bombed simply because they hosted numbers of Western Tourists. We must not forget BALI.)

    At the same time, most ordianry Muslims are not security threats.

    We therefore have to be good neighbours,and not resort to ill-founded suspicion, discrimination and slander etc. But, where our warning antennae go up — a declaratively “peaceful” Muslim neighbour is spinning deceptive yarns, or is acting suspiciously, we must take warnign and act before it is too late. (And the police across the region etc should be trained to handle this without deceiving themselves or being oppressive to the Muslims as they have been to the Rastas.)

    Our decent Muslim neigbours should understand why this is an issue, and should take the lead in policing their Mosques and community. They should identify with the cause of moderate reform within Islam, and should be open to reasonable and honest dialogue with the rest of the community. Even, ordinary Muslim moms and pops like the rest of us.

    Okay, hope this helps for starters

    GEM of TKI

  205. Comment in response to CF, but again the blog does not even say in moderation.

    GEM of TKI

  206. Excuse me Kairosfocus. You have made repeated references to distractors and strawmen in this post. I tolerated the first half a dozen, but now feel compelled to ask you to please name the posters you refer to.

    many thanks

    gareth

  207. Citizen First

    Kairosfocus

    Thanks for the response. It will take some time for me to digest it all. However your implied suggestion that we spy on our Muslim neighbours (in particular) makes me uncomfortable.

  208. Hi Guys
    A couple of points:

    1] CF: “Spying” on neighbours?

    Not at all. Not sure what I said that “implies” that; if so, unintentional.

    If something sticks out as suspiciously strange to a reasonable mind, an observant person who is public minded should feel free and confident to report it. That holds in general, for ordinary criminality — i.e what Neighbourhood Watches are all about. It extends tot he more serious potential cases in view.

    Notice, again, what I said [sp cleanup!] about relationships with our ordinary Muslim neighbours:

    “. . . most ordinary Muslims are not security threats. . . . We therefore have to be good neighbours,and not resort to ill-founded suspicion, discrimination and slander etc. But, where our warning antennae go up — a declaratively “peaceful” Muslim neighbour is spinning deceptive yarns, or is acting suspiciously, we must take warning and act before it is too late. (And the police across the region etc should be trained to handle this without deceiving themselves or being oppressive to the Muslims as they have been to the Rastas.)”

    [In short, I am working on the principle that “casing the joint” and associated violent attitudes normally show themselves in behaviour that “does not add up.”]

    Instead, what I have emphasised is that it is the ordinary people and leaders of the peaceful Muslim community who need to police their community, and be understanding that there is a security challenge resting on a global campaign by islamist militants. Such is their duty, in the interests of seeking the good of thecommunity in which they dwell. [Indeed, it seems that most of the victims of Islamist terror are fellow Muslims, so it is in the interests of the Muslim community to do this policing!)

    2] Gareth: on cases of distractors, red herrings, strawmen attacks etc

    I have interacted on points with several quite specific cases above and have had to address one particular commenter, C, who has gone utterly beyond the pale. Rumpel’s raising of the evil shade of Hitler, is another telling case in point. Even the remarks on the Bible way vs the Hell way — note the sudden silence once the implications of Rom 2:4 – 11 were pointed out, are again illustrative. (But — sadly — there is a possible case that is a lot closer to home, G.)

    Observe the rhetorical tactics I have addressed:

    a] I have had to, several times, remind the thread that there is a substantial issue on the merits to be addressed, listing points of fact and credible implications. Notice how often there has been no substantial response on the merits in the above [including from the now silent Islamic advocates]. But on the part of those who can in general be identified with progressivism and secularism as well as the influence of the so-called mainstream international media, there is a consistent changing of the subject to target a more comfortable accustomed target: those crazy Bible-thumping, nasty “fundies.”

    b] Several commenters have therefore repeatedly, in some cases insistently, sought to change the topic from what is unfortunately a clear and present danger as manifested in textbooks in use and declarations such as that by BM which BFP has highlighted in this second thread.

    c] In so dragging red herrings across the track, the alleged sins and follies etc of Evangelical Christians has been repeatedly raised, often in the context of asserting prejudicially that because I or others may be of such an affiliation, we should be dismissed as having nothing substantial to say and as generally nasty, ignorant, superstitious, credulous and hostile people. That is the ad hominem, compounded by the appeal to prjudice, to stir up hostility. Indeed, the underlying ill-founded [im]moral equivalency inference that Bible believing Christians are in effect “just as dangerous” a threat to liberty and to freedom of thought etc as are islamist terrorists, lurks in the not so hard to infer subtext. [Note above just who have in fact too often behaved with disrespect, in some cases verging into hostility and even refusal to accept correction or make amends for uncivil conduct.]

    d] This red herring tactic seeks to exploit known prejudices and hostilities among many in the presumed audience, to pull the argument out to a different topic: the real and/or imagined sins, follies and fallacies of the Evangelical Christians of our region and beyond. Thus we see the strawmen to be pummelled and burned, while announcing “victory” — on a different subject entirely.

    e] Capital in this regard was the attempt to use a deceptive speech by Hitler in 1922, through which one commenter subtly used an invidious comparison that invites the inference that the Bible and Bible-believing Christians are inextricably tarred with the evils of Nazism. [This generally obscure case of misuse of the Bible by Mr Hitler in a speech, which I rebutted above (note the silence on my citation of the Barmen Declaration of 1934, which is the formal, even creedal response of the leading Christians of Germany to Hitler’s heresies and deceptions, once he had come to power the previous year!), comes straight off the atheist websites hosted by notorious atheist groups. of course, this is not the first time I have seen this one!]

    –> So, G, your underlying implication that I have improperly labelled and not cogently responded to such arguments, fails. (Onlookers can scroll up ans see just why I can freely say that.)

    –> Further to this, your argument just above constitutes a subtle attack to the man, given that the evidence was above for any diligent observer to see; i.e you have accused and implied bad faith on my part, without having properly checked easily accessible facts. And, such an argument seeks to improperly change the subject, yet again, to what is an assumed “easier” rhetorical target.

    –> Even more subtly, it serves to attempt to recirculate already adequately rebutted and exposed fallacies that work by improperly appealing to hostility and prejudice, as if they had relevance to the matter in the main, and as if they have substance in their own right. That distracts from the substantial and vital issue, does not address the issue on the merits, recirculates deceptive fallacies that have already been adequately answered, and credibly works to stir up hostility — which as Aristotle warned, warps judgement.

    –> In short, you yourself may be [inadvertently, I assume] instantiating the pattern of red herrings, strawman attacks, ad hominems and improper [im]moral equivalencies that I have had to repeatedly address in the above. Please, think again.

    NB: Spam filter notwithstanding, it is worth linking here again, to invite fair-minded onlookers to see for themselves through substantial documentation from too often unknown slices of history why those who imagine that Bible believing Christians are inherent enemies of liberty and are no better than islamIST terrorists, are utterly misinformed.

    Trust that helps

    Cheerio

    GEM of TKI

  209. Response on points submitted, awaiting moderation in the unnanounced spam filter file.

    GEM of TKI

  210. H’mm:

    Let me make a few emphases to correct the inference on spying on neighbours, while we wait on the spam filter.

    What I said:

    ” . . . most ordinary Muslims are not security threats.

    We therefore have to be good neighbours,and not resort to ill-founded suspicion, discrimination and slander etc. But, where our warning antennae go up — a declaratively “peaceful” Muslim neighbour is spinning deceptive yarns, or is acting suspiciously, we must take warning and act before it is too late. (And the police across the region etc should be trained to handle this without deceiving themselves or being oppressive to the Muslims as they have been to the Rastas.)”

    I think it is fair comment to observe that I have precisely NOT called us to anything more than being alert, civic minded people in a time in which rising threats lead to responses such as Neightbourhood Watches.

    Casing the joint and violent attitudes tend to show off warning signs. THAT is what should be reported, and the police should be trained to properly assess and respond with reasonable respect for rights [note the example of how NOT to do it].

    The lead role should betaken by good, decent Muslim citizens and leaders of that community.

    GEM of TKI

  211. Thank you for replying Kairosfocus. Let’s begin a rational engagement !

    I would encourage readers to go through my previous contributions to this thread on 6th, 7th & 19th May. I would then invite them to visit the May 20th posts from Kairosfocus (“K”), and pick up on the bits where he responds to my straightforward request for him to name the posters he has continuously referred to as distractors and strawmen.
    I have copied these 5 snippets from “K”‘s post today:
    i (But — sadly — there is a possible case that is a lot closer to home, G.)
    ii So, G, your underlying implication […]
    iii –> Further to this, your argument just above constitutes a subtle attack to the man, given that the evidence was above for any diligent observer to see;
    iv –> Even more subtly, it serves to attempt to […]
    v –> In short, you yourself may be [inadvertently, I assume] instantiating the pattern of red herrings, strawman attacks, ad hominems and improper [im]moral equivalencies that I have had to repeatedly address in the above. Please, think again.

    How exactly did my simple question, posed May 20th, for you to name the strawmen and detractors, enable you to decude all of this? I wrote a simple, direct question, and cannot see anything underlying in it – other than to stop you from getting away with falsely denigrating people thus. It was, Kairosfocus, pretty simple.

    This argument is already won and I am tempted to leave it there, but I suspect it would be beneficial for this forum to go through with a complete denouncement.

    Firstly, my agenda is to introduce environmental humanism to Barbados and encourage Bajans to consider joining in – as expressed in the first 2 lines I wrote in this thread on 6th May. That’s pretty simple, and in direct contrast to your own convoluted indepth analysis.
    Now, should I feel negatively emotional about the above accusations of Kairosfocus…? Definitely not – because acrimony serves only to obscure the truth, and it is in my interests to be as objective as possible, because this argument has proven so very easy to win.

    Many have panicked at the approach of rational enquiry, and tried to bludgeon decent people away from opening the Pandora’s box of common sense. If “K” reviewed my previous posts and visited our website (www.gobeithio.org) then he would see that neither myself nor our group are out to get religion, or are in the remotest bit interested in picking a fight with religion; we are more likely to achieve our aims if we can get Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc on board and working together. For goodness sake, it is explicit in the very charter which our front page refers you to.

    On the one hand, K’s writings are a wonderful advertisement for our group, because they showcase the diametrical opposite of what we are, how we approach problems, and our ability to come up with relevant solutions. On the other hand, folk might be impressed by his authoritative style of writing and become taken in by it. Kairosfocus – just because people dare to explore, self educate and crosstransfer ideas across a thread, does not allow you to abuse us.

    Your point (a) accused any secularists who have contributed to this post of changing the subject to target Christian “fundies”. I hope that others will allow me to refute this on their behalf. My own contribution to this thread about Muslim extremism in Barbados was to offer the valid perspective of environmental humanism. Appropriate, and very simple. Indeed, Pig and others picked up on this as something interesting to investigate within the remit of this thread. I am sure that reasonable people will refuse to allow you to cow us to your own agenda Kairosfocus.

    On 7th May I responded to your remarks about strawmen and detractors by assuming you counted me as one of them and standing aside. A clear mistake by myself.

    Your point (b) continues from its precursor by stating that certain people who don’t happen to bow to your pathos have repeatedly and insistently sought to change the topic from Islamist extremism. Now, I repeat, the exploration of recourses alternative to your own, is a responsible action. It is not a deviance.

    Your point (c) drags us back to Christian-bashing. This is not a positive contribution to a thread concerned with formulating an appropriate response to Muslim extremism.

    Your point (d) – unsurprisingly, stays on the subject of Christian-bashing. Rather offensively, you tie me in to this. I refute your attempt to taint me with your own paranoia.

    Your point (e) dwells on someone’s analogy about Nazism. This fruitless stumbling around the Godwin Principle is of profit to no one. Secularists, Protestants, Muslims, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox – there is evidence that people who happened to pertain to ALL these lifeviews collaborated with Hitler. Don’t waste people’s time on this.

    Frankly Kairosfocus, I resent that I have been compelled to give up an hour of my time to take your child-like arguments to pieces. I would prefer to invest this time trying to secure a better future for all, and to be honest, I’m still undecided whether your arguments are too illogical to bother destroying.

    I firmly believe that I am far more worrIed about Islamist extremism than you are, because we both know that the potential disasters that this thread worries over, will send millions directly into the arms of illogical ranters offering an easy and nasty solution.

  212. G:

    I see your: How exactly did my simple question, posed May 20th, for you to name the strawmen and detractors, enable you to [deduce] all of this?

    This is in response to my comment above on your comment: Excuse me Kairosfocus. You have made repeated references to distractors and strawmen in this post. I tolerated the first half a dozen, but now feel compelled to ask you to please name the posters you refer to.

    I will now first answer in brief: for the specific evidence on why I identified and addressed certain fallacies of irrelevancy above, with identified cases and specific persons who made the errors is accessible at the expense of a simple scroll-up the thread — Chase and Rumpel being chief exemplars. [Pardon the bold, but I wish to draw attention to the key issue on this case in point of the same problem.]

    When therefore you or anyone else raises such a question in such a way as to strongly suggest (perhaps inadvertently . . . it is easy to make such mistakes) — note my highlight — that the points I made on the incidence of informal fallacies of irrelevance in this thread lack warrant, the issues I have raised in response flow out very naturally.

    Now, let me clarify on attitude: I am not taking this personally, nor am I making unwarranted accusations against you, G.

    I am simply pointing out how our thinking patterns have broken down among the educated elites in our region. Broken down in ways that make us vulnerable to serious errors of judgement and to manipulation by those who know what hot buttons to push. As the linked comments on handling media spin and straight thinking issues will show, my concern is corrective, not one upmanship.

    In that spirit, let us observe the effect of what you have done over the past couple of days by raising the point I excerpted above, in the teeth of the easily accessible evidence:

    1] We are having to address an off-topic point, incidental to the above red herrings etc, i.e you have here diverted the thread from the legitimate and serious issue at stake. AKA, Red Herring. (Go back to the original post above, and see if this sub-discussion is anything but off the track relative to a serious matter that our region needs to seriously discuss.)

    2] You are pummelling away at an issue that will in many minds create the demonstrably false but easy to get impression that the point in the main and the case on that point, lacks warrant. That is, this is a Strawman. (And, it is easy to assume that one has won a victory on the main point after pummelling a strawman; that is why the fallacy has been identified. Your closing remarks above on allegedly childish arguments abundantly illustrate the point of a “false triumph” astheoutcome of a strawman.)

    3] Since the issue is one in which I am in effect being — in the teeth of clear and irrefutable evidence that is easily accessible — falsely accused of making false accusations, this is an unwarranted Ad Hominem. (Of course, given the psychology of the three fallacies just identified, this often happens inadvertently — I am not accusing you of DELIBERATELY making a false accusation. But, you have nor t done due diligence before making grave and unjustified charges, G. Negligence can do as much damage as malice.)

    4] FYI, Your point (a) accused any secularists who have contributed to this post of changing the subject to target Christian “fundies”. distorts what I have said. I pointed to an unfortunate pattern whereby several individuals above who may reasonably be identified as secularist advocates first dragged in an inference that I must be a Bible-believing Christian [which they knew I was bound to acknowledge out of respect for truth], then set about pummelling such with a cluster of stereotypes that amount, unfortunately to bigotry. I objected to the distraction of the thread, summarised the facts and inferences to be addressed and also because the stirring up of hostility requires a reasonable answer, rebutted specific accusations and the general inference being made, with evidence. Onlookers will see that you have on the whole not engaged the evidence, but have now unfortunately joined in the pattern of stereotyping and misrepresentation.

    5] As to the “pathos” point — ie you accuse me of making an emotional appeal (one infers from other remarks, you seem to think I intend to improperly stir hostility against Muslims in general, or the religion of Islam as a whole) — you here on easily accessible evidence simply distort what I have repeatedly set out to do in the main. For it is plain on easily accessible evidence and even from my favourable citation of Daniel Pipes that I have specifically distinguished between most muslims and the Islamists, and have pointed out the reason why the latter have any success: their roots in foundational texts and examples, which I have specifically cited and linked more than once. I then set out to point out that the real answer is that we need to encourage reform of Islam from within, in ways that will break the appeal of the violence-prone Islamists. To do that, I repeatedly raised specific evidence, some of it based on specific research on the Apes and Pigs question and its roots and incidence. Why not address the matter on the merits and show me wrong if you can, instead of accusing me of making improper emotional appeals?

    6] My remarks on the tendency to bash Bible believing Christians were made in light of easily observed examples of this deplorable practice in the above, compounded by the underlying improper inference to [im]moral equivalency between Evangelicals and Islamists. Surely, if you are an informed person, you will know this is a frequently made emotional appeal, and one that is improper for reasons discussed above in response to cases in point. A fair minded commenter would therefore make the proper distinction. (BTW, if I were setting out to try to argue here the credibility of the Christian faith and worldview, I would not do so by Muslim Bashing. A survey of my previously linked online course would at once show how in general I would go about such an argument, and it has nothing to do with the specifics of Islamism and proneness to violence etc.)

    7] The case of Rumpel’s invidious comparison of the Bible believing Christian faith to Nazism, was in fact a case in point of what I was responding to, because of its particularly subtle but pernicious effects. This is the first specific case you have taken up, and you try to brush it aside as if it were insignificant instead of providing evidence of its materiality tot he issue int he main and that I made an error in how I responded on the facts of the matter, e.g the Barmen Declaration of 1934. No, this behaviour is beyond the pale of civil discourse, and is a capital instance of the red herrings, strawman attacks and ad hominems I have discussed.

    So, no you have not a all “take[n] [GEM’s] child-like arguments to pieces” — just the opposite, you have indeed further exemplified several fallacies of irrelevance. Sadly.

    And, if you resent time that distracts you from using this thread on one subject to advance your cause on a different subject, consider how it must feel for me to be subjected to what amounts to a barrage of unwarranted personal attacks — attacks which ignore easily accessible evidence that more than warrants the observations I have made — that require serious time to correct? All, distracting from a serious matter that could cost our Caribbean brothers and sisters their lives or liberty?

    Let us get back on topic, or close down the thread as increasingly counter-productive.

    GEM of TKI

  213. Back on topic:

    Here again is my summary — it last appeared May 10 — of where I think the thread stands on the merits [for reasons and on evidence already presented and/or linked, including the basic 101-level summary on Islam in my always linked, which will at once also reveal that I am an Evangelical Christian]:
    _____________

    a] There is credible evidence that supports that the Saudis, based on Q 5:59 – 60 and as manifested in official sermons over many years [cf citations and links above on this], have taught in the name of Islam, the premise that Jews and/or Christians are descendants of apes and pigs.

    b] There is reason to understand that certain text-books used in Saudi funded schools teach this dehumanising and demonising doctrine that is an obvious precursor to hate and murder. [Cf on this the recent sad incident in Turkey . . . is that what a “justified” killing of non-Muslims looks like in IslamIST eyes? How do our region’s more moderate muslims respond to this atrocity, and on what basis?]

    c] There is a serious and as yet unanswered question as to whether these books are being imported into and used in Saudi-funded education in the name of Islam here in the Caribbean, in Barbados in particular.

    d] In association with this, there is a serious issue based on Q9:5, 29 ff, etc and associated Hadiths, history and founding examples, that there is a general problem with militancy and aggression in the classical form of Islam. The IslamISTS of our day — thankfully not the majority of muslims — draw on these sources and precedents, to justify what on objective terms is murder of innocents in promotion of an agenda of domination.

    e] To this, there is a want of strong and dominant response within Islam, leading to the need for massive reformation and true enlightenment as Ms [Hirsi] Ali et al call for. [Cf the link above to her interview with Hannity and Colmes]

    f] We as concerned outsiders, therefore also need to be cautious in defence of our security, even here in the Caribbean. [This includes the concern raised in the original post above, on what is inadvertently revealed by the remark in the earlier thread by Bajan Muslim: Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly.”]
    __________

    Maybe this can help us get back on topic?

    GEM of TKI

  214. Inkwell

    To Gobeithio and Kairosfocus

    I’m sorry, but when I scroll down and see the length of your contributions, I just can’t be bothered to read them. You lost me a long time ago. Maybe I suffer from ADD, but I suspect I am not alone.

    The two of you, however, appear to enjoy boring each other to tears, so keep on swinging.

  215. Kairosfocus.
    Repeating my question back to me before launching off on a tangent with another orgy of words, does not constitute an answer.

    You cannot abuse people and then criticise their query as deviance from the point.

    Your reply fails to condone or amend for any of the direct criticisms I make against you. My only concern is that others might not have the stamina to wade through your output to see how appalling it is.

    Why don’t you ask BFP to offer us another platform which will allow us a rational debate on any topic which you consider us to be at odds on ?

  216. Gareth:

    As the record available for a simple scrollup will abundantly verify — I have NOT abused anyone in this thread, but have only corrected fallacies of irrelevance.

    Unfortunately, you now show yourself to have joined the circle of irrelevance.

    I have already specifically pointed out with evidence just why your recent remarks unfortunately are irrelevant to the declarative focus and balance of evidence on the merits of the thread, and why they unfortunately fall under the well-known fallacies: red herring distractors, pummelling of strawmen, and ad hominems. [Have a read of Copi’s Logic, any recent edition to see what I am getting at, or a similar textbook on logic and critical thinking.]

    Correction of fallacies based on objective evidence, FYI, is not abuse, sir.

    Your insistence on such resorts to irelevancies therefore leads me to regrettably conclude that productive discussion is not possible under the current circumstances.

    So, absent a substantive contribution from you or others over the next day or so, there is no reason for me to continue to try to discuss the focal issue with those whose interest is in distractors, personalities and tangential matters.

    It is plain that the matters stand on the merits prety much as I have again summarised, or there would have long since been a serious objection on the merits.

    The long sustained silence on the merits therefore speaks eloquently on the balance of the issue relative to facts, implications and what is the path of prudence in response to the challenges and even – sadly — threats that are implied.

    Good day, sir.

    GEM of TKI

  217. Chase

    Does this mean he is gone for good now?Seems like the mighty one is a little upset.Gobeithio must really have touched a nerve.

  218. Pig

    Gobeit
    You are not humanistic. Red herring and off your base. You would love to see this go away as I discern an alternate agenda in you now.

    As blogged elsewhere at BFP is that money is funneling through Clement Payne/PEP from Cuba. Has anyone considered the Middle Eastern connection?

  219. Pig

    Not at all Chase, though I detect an insulting little brat that fell between the cracks. I think you and your friends at the bar vacuous on the subject, having followed the thread through. Gobeit, the Guyanese environmentalist may even hang with you and Baje Reporter. So here’s some more common knowledge for you to think about:

    PEP David Comissiong went to Iran wearing the double headed mantle of Clement Payne Centre and Pan African Commission. Back then it was fashionable for Government to align with him, playing the shifts. Then he (Comissiong) went off to (the ruin of a) World Conference on Racism in South Africa and voted Barbados’ votes. Soon afterwards he was removed from Pan African Commission. We will never know exactly why. He now resides at the Clement Payne Centre.

  220. I’m still here – and disappointed if my offer is not taken up.

    Pig & Kairosfocus – the truth tends to win through over time. Keep reading and lets see if thats how you feel some way down the road, or make contact through our website to discuss anything away from this thread.

    LOL – Islamist extremism and ecological humanism “in league” together… now THAT would be a conspiracy theory right up there with “fake moon landings”. Think it through.

  221. Chase

    Pig:

    Not at all Chase, though I detect an insulting little brat that fell between the cracks. I think you and your friends at the bar vacuous on the subject, having followed the thread through. Gobeit, the Guyanese environmentalist may even hang with you and Baje Reporter.
    ——————————————————————-
    Well maybe you should come to the bar to see what really goes on there….you could learn a lot at the Pub quiz.
    To you I may be an insulting little brat who fell between the cracks (whatever that means),to others ,something else…what matters to me is that I am happy and contented….not to mention blessed.
    It takes all types to make this world what it is,so there will always be conflict.

  222. DFX

    Chase,

    You going tonight? I have a baby sitter lined up and all systems are go.

    Looking forward to a few beers and pleasant company.

    DFX

  223. Pig

    Still waiting on the true Bajan Muslim perspective. Was hoping for some contact, and some kind of assurance.

    Perhaps even some kind of cooperation.

    It indeed seems pointless to blog this, as no real substance is forthcoming from the area I personally wish to talk to.

    Guess that’s the ‘life of pig’ from the Bajan Muslim perspective? Any admittedly Bajan Muslims out there who wish to contribute to moderacy and address the issues above?

  224. Miggy Horsumi

    We must be careful in case the enemy forces have spaceships hovering above us.

    All good citizens need to buy binoculars and watch carefully for strange behaviour from the sky or around us.

    Are you sure your neighbour is who he/ she is??

  225. Onlookers:

    Here again is my summary of where I think the thread stands on the merits [for reasons and on evidence already presented and/or linked, including the basic 101-level summary on Islam in my always linked, which will at once also reveal that I am an Evangelical Christian]:
    _____________

    a] There is credible evidence that supports that the Saudis, based on Q 5:59 – 60 and as manifested in official sermons over many years [cf citations and links above on this], have taught in the name of Islam, the premise that Jews and/or Christians are descendants of apes and pigs.

    b] There is reason to understand that certain text-books used in Saudi funded schools teach this dehumanising and demonising doctrine that is an obvious precursor to hate and murder. [Cf on this the recent sad incident in Turkey . . . is that what a “justified” killing of non-Muslims looks like in IslamIST eyes? How do our region’s more moderate muslims respond to this atrocity, and on what basis?]

    c] There is a serious and as yet unanswered question as to whether these books are being imported into and used in Saudi-funded education in the name of Islam here in the Caribbean, in Barbados in particular.

    d] In association with this, there is a serious issue based on Q9:5, 29 ff, etc and associated Hadiths, history and founding examples, that there is a general problem with militancy and aggression in the classical form of Islam. The IslamISTS of our day — thankfully not the majority of muslims — draw on these sources and precedents, to justify what on objective terms is murder of innocents in promotion of an agenda of domination.

    e] To this, there is a want of strong and dominant response within Islam, leading to the need for massive reformation and true enlightenment as Ms [Hirsi] Ali et al call for. [Cf the link above to her interview with Hannity and Colmes]

    f] We as concerned outsiders, therefore also need to be cautious in defence of our security, even here in the Caribbean. [This includes the concern raised in the original post above, on what is inadvertently revealed by the remark in the earlier thread by Bajan Muslim: Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly.”]
    __________

    Maybe this can help us get back on topic?

    Absent such serious engagement, there is little point in wasting BFP’s bandwidth on fallacies of distraction [and taking correction of such fallacies as personal attacks is immature at best, cf. G’s rhetorical tactics above on this; worse, trying to assert that irrelevancies “win” an argument relative to the issues on the merits of fact and implications of such facts betrays a want of basic training in critical thinking].

    Sadly, on the evidence here and in a lot of other places, such is the state of the C21 Caribbean educated classes . . .

    Okay, I await serious engagement on the merits.

    GEM of TKI

  226. PS: On conspiracies vs addressing serious threats soberly.

    There is a general tendency to brush off as madmen blowing too much crack-pot smoke, those who imagine they see a grand globalist conspiracy in a smoke filled room in some resort over in Davos, Switzerland or some forest resort in the off season in the woods of the Rockies or whatever latest venue for the Trilateralists/ Rhodes Scholars awardees/ Council on Foreign Relations of the US/ whatever millionaires club meeting is in view.

    [NB: Cf the ideology and career of that cunning old imperialist crook who “tiefed” whole countries, Cecil Rhodes of RHODESia infamy, before totally dismissing, though — he had a vision of Anglo-American cultural/leadership level dominance of the world. (I have wondered why we Caribbeans so often put so much store by the Rhodes scholarships, given their historical background . . .)].

    It is then but a short step to dismiss anything that does not suit, as similar grand conspiracy theories; maybe even with aliens landing from the mothership into the bargain.

    (Multiply in guilt over or hostility towards the Imperialist history of the West, and we can see that we in the Caribbean are set up for that hostility to the “Great and lesser Satans” that may warp our ability to accurately perceive other problems. Let us not forget, sometimes in this world we have to choose the lesser of evils, and if that is so we need to be very very cautious and prudent in so doing. “If one has to sup with the devil s/he had better take along a very long spoon.” The point of balance is the true opposite to all extremes.)

    More directly, assertions on conspiracy thinkers as idiots to be dismissed out of hand, simply do not engage the facts on the merits as have been raised and repeatedly summarised in this blog thread, on a very specific issue: Islamism, its demonstrable agendas, attitudes and stratagems, including the apes and pigs bigotry and stereotyping that is a pecursor to excusing murder as “not unjust.” [Do I daresay, again, that red herrings, strawmen and ad hominems, are all fallacies of irrelevance?]

    If one is going to properly address the issue s/he has to do so on the merits of fact and logic. To that let us turn again, in light of the above post and comments with links for onward references.

    For, we know that Saudi Arabia’s clerics on the record have routinely taught that Jews and Christians are descendants of apes and pigs, literally or metaphorically. As the MEMRI observers have documented, even cute little 3 year old girls who should be melting hearts not mouthing monstrosities, are parroting such rubbish on TV.

    We know where such bigotry leads, and we know the Quranic references and popular stories [there is a TV transcript in some of the linked above] being used which form a basis for such horrible indoctrination.

    So, as Pig keeps on asking, where are the moderate Muslims here who can credibly assure us that:

    [a] the known Saudi-funded textbooks that teach such bigotry are NOT in use in the Caribbean; especially Barbados, and here is the certification from the Barbados Ministry of Education on that, and attached are the inspection reports that confirm that what is on paper is on the ground.

    [b] The approved counter to the use of the Quran to promote such bigotry is such and so forth, and here are the leading Islamic clerics who are standing up on the point, at Al Azhar University in Egypt [the leading Islamic institution of higher learning in the world], the Main Mosques in Saudi Arabia etc. Here are the Quranic texts and Hadiths that are used to do that, and here is the approved interpretation, which counters the jihadists on their proof texts thusly.

    [c] So, here are the fatwas — theological rulings — that explain just why the Islamists’ violent interpretations of the Quran, e.g of Q 9:5 and 29 ff, are improper and repudiated by similar leading lights; and this is how the relevant early history of islamic expansionism is handled byt he same leading lights.

    [d] Here is how these corrective rulings are being propagated across the world,a dn here is how the islamists from Phillippines and INdonesia to Thailand to India and Pakistan to Nigeria wand across the rest of theworld are being curbed and isolated fromt he mainstraeam of Islam.

    [e] To back that up, here are the mass demonstrations in protest against the notorious incidents of violence, and here are the statements read out to the assembled marchers from the same leading lights to underscore the above points. [I note the Smyrna protests in Turkey over the rise of the sort of thing that led to the torture and murder of three Christians in that ancient Christian stronghold (the church there is the subject of an apostolic letter in 95 AD in the Revelation in the Bible) was explicitly of the Secular, Attaturkist political opposition. I want serious, well documented assurances from the leading Muslim clerics that we can see working on the ground.]

    Absent such credible assurances, the concerns of Pig and others are well warranted, not idle crack-pot smoke-driven conspiracy nightmares.

    GEM of TKI

  227. herbiverous

    kairo does your fingers or mouth ever get tired spouting so much dribble? and honestly i really want some of the stuff you obviously smoke and which allows you to wax lyrical. i want to be able to go down the block and talk down to the boys like you come here and do!

  228. Onlookers

    Observe again, no significant response on the merits, but a gratuitous and utterly unwarranted personal attack; courtesy the perhaps all-too-aptly self-named “herbiverous.”

    A couple of notes, sadly, are well warranted:

    1] What does that tell us about the level at which may of our so-called educated elites are thinking in our region? [Do we understand that arguments draw persuasive power from emotions, the credibility of claimed authorities and from addressing facts and logic tied to those facts? Do we know that only the last of the three actually has potential to establish its conclusions soundly?]

    2] Observe what is being dismissed without consideration on the merits: the rising tide of IslamIST threat in the region and world. (And, BTW on this, Jamaica this weekend just received back the Islamic Cleric who was gaoled on sedition charges in the UK and has now been deported. Jamaica is about 2 1/2 – 4 hours flying time from Barbados, FYI, depending on the number of stop-offs. And of course violent Islamist sites are a mouse click or two away in the Internet age. That does not even get to the question of the Harts Gap group . . . right there fairly near the St Michael/ Christ Church border on the outskirts of Bridgetown.)

    So, which is wiser — burying our heads in the sand, or addressing a problem before it is too late?

    (Let us note too, that the Islamic — not just IslamIST — advocates remain silent in the face of a direct challenge.)

    Time to wake up, wise up and rise up folks . . .

    GEM of TKI

  229. P.T.Barnum

    You BADLY need to watch..


  230. Onlookers

    Note that the cited video is an attack on the 10 Commandments, and is titled with an obscenity: ‘Religion is [OBSCENITY].”

    In short, again, we see a red herring leading out to a strawman, and an ad hominem. All of this, serving to distract attention form the matter in the main in this blog.

    Perhaps, though, it will help to address the ill-considered and disrespectful contempt that breathes in the link. PTB needs to look at a far more insightful commenter than he seems to look to. Here, Paul’s form of the Golden Rule [which underpins the principles in the decalogue]:

    Rom 18 v 8 ff: in summary, love does no harm, so it fulfills the key moral precepts in the decalogue, such as you shall not steal, murder, slander or the like. Last time I checked the status of Commonwealth Law, these were still foundational to having a decent, law-abiding society that is worth living in. And, let us note too the point made by Jefferson in the US DOI 1776 on the roots of liberty in community, rest on the dignity of man as made in God’s image. To date, no other attempted foundation for law, justice, liberty and rights, has succeeded in credibly grounding our rights and duties without ending up in hopeless contradictions and confusions.

    (E.G. It is interesting that in fact, evolutionary materialism, which often pretends to be “Science,” has deep problems grounding not only objective morality, but also how we can rely on the minds we use to think about morality and science. Not to mention, the difficulties in accounting for the origin of life and its intricate nanotechnologies, and the origin of the cosmos as a whole based on, say, the current Big Bang cosmology. But the details are for two or three other major debates.)

    Further to this, notice the open contempt towards Jews and Christians involved in the link that PTB has made.

    What does that tell us — yet again — about how all too many members of our so-called educated elites are thinking and acting? About what sources they look to for principles for society, and where that predictably will lead if they prevail?

    The now long sustained inability to address the matter on the merits from either Moderate Muslims [or extremist Islamists trying to defend their case in the face of facts and reasonable principles!], as well as the pattern of distractors from those who are generally associated with secularist progressivism, are all too telling on the actual balance of the case on the merits.

    GEM of TKI

  231. Onlookers:

    If you seriously want to follow up that onward set of issues, start with Section E, here.

    But as noted, that is for an entorely different ser of debates.

    This thread is about the issue of islamIST — as opposed to ordinary, law abiding Muslims — inclinations to excuse their resort to violence, by hijacking the concept of justice. Hence the title of the post at the top, “Barbados Muslims Won’t Kill Anyone “Unjustly” – Bajan Muslim Commenter On Barbados Free Press.”

    Looks to me like the issue stands pretty much as BFP made it in the post, after several weeks of back-forth. [That is what is implied by the insistent rhetoric of trying to change the subject when you cannot answer to the point in the main; easily and repeatedly observable above.]

    GEM of TKI

  232. Simple Minded Bajan

    Your’e just as sick as the sicko on youtube.

  233. P.T.Barnum

    Dear Simple Minded Bajan.
    Apologies for rocking your very vulnerable boat.

    I realize you have an entire lifetime’s worth of emotion and brainwashing
    (from your parents and your belief-club//Church)
    invested in your religion, whichever crazy one it is.

    It’s difficult to admit that an investment is going down the tubes (I invested in Sunbeach!!)
    but still..you gather your inner strength (without Jesus, or Confuscius, or Buddha, or Muhammed) and get on with your life.

    You have one life to live: this one.
    This is not the dress rehearsal.
    There is no afterlife: you’ve been sold the Brooklyn Bridge, and dammit you intend to stick to your patently-false bill of sale,
    even though you WELL suspect you’ve been had, coz you simply can’t admit you’ve been “taken”.

    One day coming soon, you’ll have a grand re-think of the whole sorry story that is the Talmud, the Koran, the Bible, but only if you’re very lucky.
    Then, you might free yourself from the shackles placed upon you
    by generations of abusers intent on passing on the abuse from generation to generation! – as you have done, to YOUR children, who now believe all the krapola you do!

    It’s a sorry state of affairs, and it’s screwing up MY WORLD.

  234. Pig

    Then blog elsewhere.

  235. P.T.Barnum

    you WISH!

  236. P.T.Barnum

    I’m here to show up the complete idiocy of ALL your religions!
    You fools are here only to defend the religion of your choice, and beat down the other guy’s head game.
    I’m here to expose ALL human “head games” generally.

    I’m here to free you and re-educate you…
    to bring you kicking and screaming into the 21st.century, where we have got over the “necessity for” religions,
    just like how Whitey had to be dragged (kicking and screaming) over the matter of abolishing Slavery, which was also seen as a human stupidity and discovered to be BAD FOR HUMANITY GENERALLY!

    Religions are next, so gird thy loins, sweetie
    coz the shock is coming!

    And DO remember what I originally said about a sucker being born every minute!

    Are you one of them??
    – seriously – ask yourself!
    ARE YOU A SUCKER FOR RELIGION??

  237. P.T.B.

    ******

    Comment removed by BFP for double posting.

    PTB – you are getting rather vitriolic and I suggest if you intend to continue posting you pick up on the culture and feel of this blog community.

    Otherwise, you will likely find yourself in moderation 100% of the time.

    Clive for Auntie Moses

  238. Pig

    You’re weird, PT.

  239. DFX

    Kairo,

    How are you my friend?

    “This thread is about the issue of islamIST — as opposed to ordinary, law abiding Muslims — inclinations to excuse their resort to violence, by hijacking the concept of justice”

    Thank you! This is what I have been trying to put across all along. And trust me there is a big difference between an Islamist and a Muslim. Just as there is a difference between a Christian and let’s say a Jim Jones. They might all be using the same book, but pushing one he11 of a different message.

    Take care,

    DFX

  240. Pig

    DFX I agree with you, but have been waiting for a great deal of time for some moderate Muslims to come out and to relate. This hasn’t happened, so one begins to think that contrary to the idea that there are 1) Moderates and 2) Radicals, we are seeing some comlicity/sympathy of moderates for the radicals. There would be a spectrum of moderate, going into radical- it is may not be just a question of one leaning vs the next. What do you think one should conclude?

    Are no Muslims reading this?

    Why have no Muslims come to answer and to help with propositions of what to do about radicalism? Where are the moderate organised leaders? It is these persons we want to hear from.

    For Barbados sake.

    We need to plan for success in stunting radical, promoting moderate Islam; Islam that co-exists with other religions and other secular aspects of society, existing inside our Bajan society, not dominating it.

    Still waiting. Maat, are you there? Could you be such a person?

  241. Pingback: Surprise In Our "Top Ten" List For May - Bizzy Williams Parties All Night And Gets The Girl! « Barbados Free Press

  242. H’mm:

    A few remarks are in order.

    First, DFX, thanks for being on-topic.

    Now, on points:

    1] DFX: there is a big difference between an Islamist and a Muslim. Just as there is a difference between a Christian and let’s say a Jim Jones

    First, if you look back above, you will see that I have never said otherwise. My concern has always been that the Islamist 10% [by conventional estimate] unfortunately have too much support on a simple direct reading of key texts and examples from the founding era of Islam, and also in some not so happy threads in Islamic eschatology [which, I know, I have not laid out in details . . . that would really extend the thread . . .].

    So, I join Daniel Pipes in the hope that the moderates can sustain a viable moderating reformation, but recognise that that’s a tall order and that it is an uphill battle. Also, the destructive 10% are thus about 120 – 150 millions, which is a very sobering number indeed.

    And, of course, Pig has raised his own very sobering point:

    2] Pig: DFX I agree with you, but have been waiting for a great deal of time for some moderate Muslims to come out and to relate. This hasn’t happened, so one begins to think that contrary to the idea that there are 1) Moderates and 2) Radicals, we are seeing some com[p]licity/sympathy of moderates for the radicals. There would be a spectrum of moderate, going into radical- it is may not be just a question of one leaning vs the next.

    Given the pattern of texts and examples, that would not be surprising, and implies that if unchecked, radicalism can grow explosively.

    But equally, there is the fact that much more than 1/23 ofthe victims of the Islamists are fellow Muslims. That sugests that there is considerable resistance within Islam to the sort of radical interpretations and militancy, though unfortunately such resistance is not being strongly emphasised by the global level leadership of Islam, i.e the Grand Mosque in Arabia, the Al Azhar University in Egypt faculty, etc. And, as a rule we are not seeing the sort of street action from the moderates that the Islamists are able to routinely muster. (The Turkey instances in Smyrna/Izmir have more of a political Ataturkist than a religious character, but that may be a part of the process we need to see . . .)

    What I think we can appeal to is the common deposit of core morality in decent people across all faiths or wordviews, which causes people to instinctively pull back form the more blatantly outrageously immoral or evil behaviours. [BTW, PTB, that is an explicit Christian teaching, cf. Rom 2 on the law of conscience in our hearts.) The desire to progress and to find liberty and justice likewise are moderating influences.

    If I had to identify possible cases, Turkey and Iraq seem to be two likely test cases, if the Islamists, Iranians and Baathists in Iraq can be decisively defeated. In this latter case, the Kurds who sit on much of the oil and are willing to share that wealth for the price of not being under the Arab thumb, may be the key moderating influence. SIstani and some of the leading Shiite clerics, too seem to be moderating.

    3] PTB: I’m here to show up the complete idiocy of ALL your religions! You fools are here only to defend the religion of your choice, and beat down the other guy’s head game.

    Kindly dial back on the contempt for those who differ from you. And, have you considered that you are a capital example of the “beat down” game you so abhor when you think you see it in others? (Had you gone back up the thread, you will see that its proper focus is on the problems of radical militant IslamISTS in the region [e.g. see on the issue of the deportation of el Faisal to Jamaica over the last week or so], and that the topic of religion vs religion has been introduced insistently by secularist advocates, forcing those of us who belong to various faiths to correct fallacious and atmosphere poisoning arguments. “He hit back first” is not a proper complaint.)

    I think you will find that a serious level examination of ALL live option worldviews will show that each and every one of them has significant intellectual difficulties, and moral challenges. Adherents of any view can be good, bad or indifferent [and BTW, the same Rom 2 discusses just this brilliantly, including how God responds to decent people in ANY worldview, who persist in the path of turning from wrong to right, vs those who resist and reject the truth, are self-seeking and follow evil].

    That means that [I will put up a link in a follow up brief post], the approach to thinking through which worldview to choose or hold, we should engage the dialogue of comparative difficulties, across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power; with a special view to core warranting arguments for the relevant worldviews.

    That is far from the “beat down” game you project onto others here.
    _________

    Now, let us get back on topic . . .

    GEM of TKI

  243. PS: Link on the key philosophical technique of comparative difficulties.

  244. PPS: Bad news over the weekend out of NY, Trinidad and Guyana. Let’s hope for the best.

  245. Pingback: » Archbishop of Canterbury: ‘Sharia law unavoidable in Britain’ Keltruth Corp.: News Blog of Keltruth Corp. - Miami, Florida, USA.

  246. Terence M. Blackett

    In the 1980’s I was kneeling down in the mosque in Trinidad with guys like Abu Bakr and it is strange how the fruits of those discussions and the politicization and Islamization came home to bite some major skeptics on their arses…

    The history of Islam has always been political and religious domination…

    I take the socio-political position of former Aussie Prime Minister John Howard regarding Muslims who live in our countries…

    You obey the laws; you recognize that Christian societies are not obliged to pander or cower to your religious whims or fancies… PERIOD!!!

    In the same way, as a Born Again Christian, I cannot go to Saudi Arabia and build a 30,000 strong Christian organization and proselytize the indigenous Muslims, the same treatment should be accorded to those leave their countries to live amongst us…

    Yet in Christian societies like Britain, Barbados and elsewhere, on street corners in major cities you can find mosques and houses of worship everywhere…

    And this rite is enshrined in the law!!!

    But then, we are dependent on their OIL, right?

    On the other hand, a caricature of Mohamed in Europe results in mass protest and violence around the world…

    What is wrong with my Muslim brothers???

    Notwithstanding, this week an Iranian filmmaker had the balls to depict Jesus (on the eve of the Easter season) as having been whisked away before His crucifixion and Judas miraculously turning into the Messiah and being crucified in His place…

    What a load of croq!!!

    But then, that is artistic expression and artistic interpretation, right?

    Yet I am not seeing mass protest anywhere by my Christian brothers…

    However, I promise you that a cinematographic portrayal of Mohamed through a historical Christian lens showing him as a swashbuckling religious “Attila”, whose alter ego created an Islamic-speak and a mindset of conquest and domination by the sword at any cost, would invoke international outrage…

    But then, we live in a world where you have to be PC about Islam and especially about Mohamed, less you incur a Fatwa and some suicide bomber with no care for human life detonates a plastic explosive in the name of Allah and goes to paradise where he will wined and dined by 10 virgins…

    Is it me, or something wrong with these pictures?

    But then, I too was once a Muslim!!!

    Maybe, this is fuel Salman Rushdie’s next book…

  247. J

    Dear Rumplestilskin:

    Re your post of March 30, 2007 at 9:57 a.m.

    Yes Barbadian women who pass for attractive can and do walk down Broad Street and can and do go to the beach without harrassment. I am 55 now and I believe still moderately attractive and I have been going to the beach in Barbados since before I was 5 years old and and I have only been spoken to improperly only once in 50 years, (1958 -2008). I politely pointed out to the gentleman that I was accompanied by my young daughter and that therefore no I was not looking for sex today. I said it with a smile, and in the same tone as if was refusing to buy a tee shirt on Swan Street or perfume on Broad street. The sex salesman apologised profusely and went on his merry way. My 50+ years experience with Bajan men is that they are generally very respectful. On the rare occasions when they do forget that they are gentlemen I find that a gentle reminder will correct the situation. Since these posts are talking about religion I thought that I would remind all that as the Scripture states, “gentle words can (and do) turn away anger” So yes I do get along fine with Barbadian and Caribbean men. I think that we and they are oftentimes too harsh with each other. And yes I often do go to the beach alone, with children or with female relatives and friends nds and no I do not run into trouble and this has been so even when I was very young and exceedingly attractive (If I may be immodest for a moment)

  248. moslemschlachter

    why cant some religious blinded people not just be quiet

  249. Inkwell

    BFP,

    The philosophies of life of Islam and the West are clearly incompatible and you have focused in your article on the most blatant of their differences. But you have not commented on Salafi Manhaj’s indictment of the West in the paragraphs quoted below.

    These are serious charges which have substance and cannot be simply dismissed or ignored. What say you?

    “As for bombs and all other weapons of destruction, war planes, tanks, and long-range missiles, you are the ones who engineered and manufactured them with your satanic minds that only think about transgression, animosity, oppression, attacking, tyranny, conquering entire races of people and enslaving them, spilling their blood, and usurping their natural resources. You think only about annihilating those who oppose you and stand in the way of your greedy aspirations, your oppression and spreading of hatred. All this wrapped up in the name of civilization, human rights, freedom, and justice!

    All intelligent people know this about you. For your dark history is overflowing with uncivil and terrorist acts, a history recorded against you by both your enemies and allies alike.”

    *********************

    BFP says,

    There are good and bad folks in all countries and all religions.

    There are also fundamental differences between cultures and religions – in outcomes, holy writing and the values espoused by the cultures and religions.

    When focusing on the roles and rights of women in society, there seems to be a darkness and a need to dominate women that can be seen in men in all societies. Where that darkness is allowed free rein and is supported by cultural norms, you get the outcomes of women being murdered for failing to obey men in the slightest thing.

    Our illustration is not that the societies are the same, but that the darkness exists everywhere. And, where it is fed, it will grow.

  250. Inkwell

    Your cop out says clearly that you prefer to continue to dismiss and ignore the indictment. Good defense.

  251. Hannah

    Do not be jealous of the hard working Muslim people. Just because you can’t afford land, does not mean that they shouldn’t buy land when they have the necessary funds. We in Barbados need to stop being so closed minded and accept people for who they are and NOT for their religion.
    I hope that you realise that the Bible was used to defend slavery. One doesn’t agree with everything that they read.
    All of us in Barbados need to change our attitude towards others and treat them with respect.
    Many of you would consider yourself to be “christian” AND you would still steal from your neighbour, fornicate, act in a lewd manner and get drunk or high.
    Stop judging others based on their beliefs. When the Day of Judgement comes, God will not ask you about your Muslim brother or your atheist sister. He will ask you about you.
    We have freedom of religion in this country. Be glad that someone is trying to live by their beliefs and do the right thing, other than doing what we in Barbados are famous for – criticising others.
    Peace to everyone.

  252. what??

    What i see is obvious ignorance of islam u see bajans never want to look outside of the box they never want to realise any other religion.

    Firstly the part of the turning christians and jews into pigs and apes is totally out of context let me tell what is said in the koran ,it says – surah 5 verse60- ” of whom SOME he transformed into apes and swines those who worshipped evil”
    GOD did not turn all the jews and christians into apes and swine just the evil ones.

    Dont remain ignorant of islamic teachings . Learn, and understand before you allow propagandist to fool you by spreading their hate of islam through YOU.
    YOU should know that you ancestors(bajans) were all muslims who were enslaved by the white man and forced into christianity for social acceptance. It certainly was not the “good” manners of the white slavers that made our forefathers chage their religion into christianity.

  253. Religion

    Should you allow yourselves to be fooled by the many who just hate Islam because of their upbringing . Then you are but weak in heart and in mind.

  254. sabta

    Ya them raging catholic nuns in Mumbai were something else, weren’t they?

  255. Maître

    Whew!!!! The level of ignorance and “intellectualisme faux” here is enormous! LOL…. but then, as is usually the case with the colonies, they tend to adopt the ways of their masters, with no real identities of their own…. though, I shouldn’t judge too harshly – if true freedom were pursued, they’d end up like Haiti. So form your groups and keep the hate festering. Keep it up!

  256. Mobutu was wrong

    Maitre, why don’t you comment on what the Muslim said that started this article?

    ““As for you O Westerners, claimants of civilization, you have constitutions and statutes that destroy upright moral character and permit all kinds of forbidden acts, the likes of fornication and homosexuality, as well as usury which destroys the economies of entire nations, and the eating of improperly slaughtered animals (dead meats) and pork, something that causes the loss of concern for women’s values, and thus a man does not feel protective of his wife, sister, or daughter, and thus she fornicates with or intimately befriends whomever she pleases.”

  257. Mic

    Yes, the west, as the cause of civilisatization, has does its best to overlook the transgressions of its medieval counterparties.
    The thing is, the details are trivial and everybody wants to come in.
    Our concern is, can you pay taxes, thereby look after the types were the concern of our civil war.

  258. Wise One

    The muslim bajan named- salafi manhaj
    I pray that alot of you readers do not take what he writes and extract a mindset of islam..
    If anyone has any questions about islam supporting killing and downgrading women etc.
    Please contact someone from the B.M.A or just go to on of the mosque in the city.
    They are different types of muslims, Salafi is one denomination and make up for a very small population in barbados. Sunni is the majority.
    Do not let one person with their reply give you the wrong understanding of islam.
    And by my understanding Salafis usually tend to have a more aggressive approach to life.

  259. BFP

    I have a question, Wise One.

    Should apostates of Islam be killed or not? As a Muslim, what do YOU believe?

  260. Mobert

    From the media ”An Iranian hardline newspaper has officially declared war against France’s First Lady Carla Bruni-Sarkozy by calling her names and citing immorality. The paper have even recommended that Mrs. Sarkozy be put to death for supporting Sakineh Mohammadi-Ashtiani, a woman sentenced to death by stoning for the crime of adultery.”

    Although the Iranian Government has condemned the use of insulting language against a foreign official, note that it has not dispelled or rebutted the sentiment itself.

    Is that the answer to every perceived disagreement to Islamic ‘teachings’, kill the ‘offender’?

    Which is why the British Government has done crap by allowing limited Sharia Law in English society, for persons of Muslim faith.

    No, you live by the laws of the land, dont like it, then go to heck back where you came from.

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  262. nvmd thought there was 1 min left…only 30 secs

  263. I haven’t tried that one, but good idea. However, with my Southern accent, automated systems usually can’t understand me.

  264. There are some interesting points in time in this article but I don’t know if I see all of them heart to heart. There’s some validity however I’ll take maintain opinion until I look into it further. Good article , thanks and we want more! Added to FeedBurner as well