Part 1 of our new series: Freedom of Speech on the Barbados Blogs
Jeff Cumberbatch of the Barbados Advocate confessed to posting comments (HORRORS!) on two anonymous blogs: Barbados Underground and Barbados Free Press.
(That’s ok, Jeff! We’ve had government ministers posting on BFP – so don’t worry about it. Your secret is safe with us.)
The confession takes place in the latest Barbados Advocate on page 9 of the dead tree version and online at Musings: Free anonymous expression.
Mr. Cumberbatch has some thoughts about defamation and anonymous blogging and even if you don’t agree with everything he says, his article is worthwhile reading to get you in the mood for our new series of articles here at Barbados Free Press titled “Freedom of Speech on the Barbados Blogs.”
Roosevelt O. King touches off an important societal discussion
All of this latest discussion about the limits of anonymous blogging by Mr. Cumberbatch and others takes place in the context of three articles posted on Barbados Free Press about the online revelations of Mr. Roosevelt O. King, the Secretary General of BANGO: the Barbados Association of Non-Governmental Organisations.
Mr. King posted information on Barbados Underground Blog concerning child prostitutes smuggled into the Caribbean. Barbados Free Press posted three articles about Mr. Roosevelt’s writings, but one of the three BFP articles was removed by WordPress.com for reasons that will come to light during our new series.
Today in our first article, we’d like you to read Mr. Cumberbatch’s thoughts at the Barbados Advocate. In our next article in the series we’re going to look people who blog about Barbados under their own names.
Now here’s the deal, folks… We’re going to copy Mr. Cumberbatch’s entire article here only because the Barbados Advocate destroys their online archives every so often. SO…. we want you to promise that you’ll head over to Barbados Advocate to read the article while it’s still posted there. Got that? Great!
Alright… go to the Barbados Advocate to read Jeff’s article…
Musings: Free anonymous expression.
Only if it’s not there, then you can proceed to read it here at BFP. Ok? The Barbados Advocate deserves the web hits so go read it there if you can, please!
If it’s not there anymore, ok… here it is…
Musings: Free anonymous expression
9/20/2009
By Jeff Cumberbatch
I have a confession to make today. It is that I frequently read the popular local ‘blogs, Barbados Underground and Barbados Free Press, and on one or two occasions, I have even gone out on a figurative limb and contributed to them; pseudonymously, of course. And while that admission is clearly not up there with, say, one of having cheated on your taxes or of having indulged in shoplifting, the relative silence in the print and electronic media and among the chattering classes concerning these avenues of public discourse would lead to a view that it is still somewhat infra dig to contribute to them. Much like calling the talk shows, even though these are gradually gaining the imprimatur of serious debate in some respects.
Indeed, there is a degree of similarity between the ‘blogs and the talk shows; in the presence of frequent contributors, in the variety of topics for discussion and in that oh-so-valuable anonymity which permits free expression by a people still fearful of imagined official sanction for a contrarian view on even the most anodyne subject.
In this last regard, the ‘blogs are even more accommodating than the talk shows, for while a voice might be recognised or outed, there is scarcely any prospect of this occurring with the numerous, and sometimes multiple pseudonyms (including, of all things, “ Anonymous”), used by contributors. Only a few brave (or vain) souls have included their photo as an avatar to their names, thus removing any doubt as to the true identity of the contributor. And, as with the radio talk-shows and mid-morning traffic, I continue to marvel, in the midst of a relatively low unemployment rate, how so many individuals manage to find the time; in this case to contribute to so many threads (and on the blogs, so many times) of discussion daily.
As a leader in this newspaper editorialised some months ago, the freedom of expression on the blogs, though subject, theoretically, to the same constraints as other written or spoken exercises of this freedom, including respect for the reputations and privacy of other persons, nevertheless enjoys all the privileges which come with anonymous publication. An individual who considers that she has been defamed by an anonymous statement on a ‘blog and who contemplates legal redress therefor from that contributor, must clear, in addition to those of the traditional legal requirements, the further hurdle of identifying the contributor by discovery from the blogmaster or an Internet Service Provider.
Some recent cases in the US have treated this issue, with contrasting results and it seems clear that the issue is far from settled. In one case in the State of Maryland in February, the Court of Appeals held that the claimant, in order to succeed, must first establish facts sufficient to make out a “prima facie” or presumptive case as to each of the elements of defamation. Second, the court has to balance the blogger’s constitutional right to freedom of anonymous expression against the claimant’s right to protection of her reputation. This latter consideration would give primacy to public interest issues and less value to the scurrilous, although it is not always easy to distinguish these. A similar holding has been made in New Jersey.
And in a New York case decided last month, the Supreme Court of New York held that a model who had been the object of anonymous calumny on a ‘blog, was entitled to discover from Google, Inc., owners of the website which hosted the offending blog in question, the identity of the blogger who had written about her. In this case, the court was satisfied with the claimant establishing the arguably lower standard that “a cause of action exists”, whether likely to be successful or not.
Although the law in the various states of the US differs somewhat from the local law on defamation, it is important that we consider these matters. As anyone familiar with the popular local blogs is aware, there are no holds barred when it comes to prurient discussion of personalities which, unfortunately, is oftimes substituted for informed discussion on the topic at issue. It may not be long before some individual determines that a defamation action is in order for some anonymous disparaging remark.
First, it is no defence that a different and lower standard of what constitutes defamation exists on the blogs. In the New York case referred to above, the Court firmly rejected the proposition of the blogger that statements made in this medium cannot reasonably be considered as factual assertions since “Internet ‘blogs serve as a modern day forum for conveying personal opinions, including invective and ranting…”. As the learned judge saw it, “[i]n that the Internet provides a virtually unlimited, inexpensive and almost immediate means of communication with tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people, the dangers of its misuse cannot be ignored…” In her view, ‘those who suffer damages (sc. damage) as a result of tortious or other actionable communications on the Internet should be able to seek appropriate redress by preventing the wrongdoers from hiding behind an illusory shield of purported First Amendment rights…”
I’ll continue this discussion with an examination of the responsibility of blog hosts for defamatory material, the elements of defamation, and other issues; including the view that freedom of expression may be a cultural, even more than a legal, phenomenon.


hi anonlegal (ooops!!) I mean Jeff.
@BFP,
Maybe the Advocate has changed. What it did was to only leave the PDF version of the paper online for a day (ie that’s the version that looks like the printed pages). The electronic version of articles seemed to have a long (indefinite?) life. You may want to reproduce the Editorial they ran on this some months on it, emanating as it did from their concerns about being liable for libel. See ‘Freedom of E-Press’ (http://www.barbadosadvocate.com/newsitem.asp?more=editorial&NewsID=2551), which was posted on March 19 and is still available online.
I note “In our next article in the series we’re going to look people who blog about Barbados under their own names.” I guess I had better put on my seat belt
.
More generally, anonymity on blogs is a myth. Almost anyone who is a blogger (moderators, say). Few can sustain such activities totally in secret. It is then a matter of who is prepared to say who a blogger is or bloggers are. The desire for a blogger to appear anonymous is an interesting topic. My own view is that anonymity has severe limitations, even though it may appear to have gains in the sense that one can be an online sniper. But, logic tells me that there must come a point when anonymity has to fall because credibility demands knowing who is behind something. That is not meant to pressurise anyone to give up what anonymity they think they have.
In the same way that you write “We’ve had government ministers posting on BFP – so don’t worry about it. Your secret is safe with us.” it’s a game of trust.
For those of you on Facebook, you may be interested in Kim Young’s Assoc of Caribbean Journalists & PR/Advertising/Marketing Practitioners, which today has David King writing “The rantings of a blog master” (see http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/inbox/?folder=fbmessages&page=1&tid=1238034394174, though this may not work if you not a Facebook member). It’s part of a vibrant discussion going on in Barbados, so I recommend reading that too.
In my mind I’ve been exploring the logical discord between appealing for open/free expression and yet keeping anonymity (which is a form of closed expression). It’s a nice conundrum.
All power to your efforts, though.
CORRECTION: ‘…Almost anyone who is a blogger (moderators, say)…’ should have added, ‘can be identified and named.’
Pingback: Global Voices Online » Barbados: journalist’s “confession”
@ Living
I enjoy your blog and your comments on other blogs, but I have to take issue with you here.
Your view: “there must come a point when anonymity has to fall because credibility demands knowing who is behind something.”
In another time, you might have been contested on that by Currer Bell, Acton Bell and Ellis Bell, not to mention Mary Ann Evans and (reversing the notion) old Sam Clemens, to this day one of the truly great prose sources of insight and wit. Some early stuff from that useless anonymous loser “Eric Blair” also comes to mind. Did he ever write anything worth reading? That is, apart from all the unspeakably brilliant things he wrote?
I’d say that the credibility is in the writing, not in the name. Depending on the material, the credibility might also be in the information imparted, but in the end it’s always the writing that makes the difference between credibility and derision.
If much of what you [obviously, here I don’t mean you personally] say online consists of “ya klown!” and “Laaaaaaard!!!” and “Aaargghhh!!!!” then you’re probably not the brightest pixie in the forest and it really doesn’t matter what you say. You can call yourself whatever you want, because what you have to say doesn’t matter in the slightest.
Just in case anyone would like to read the serious side of this story, including discussion and learned debate (Free Speech even!), please see:
http://bajan.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/google-court-decision-guarantees-public-protection-on-the-internet/
The above Blog Entry, IMHO, is the true Genesis of Mr. Cumberbatch’s article in the Advocate….
Halsall, how sweet…an invitation to BU, no thanks.
@PiedPiper: “…no thanks.
Why?
Are you uncomfortable with free and open discussion and debate?
I would suggest with all due respect, Mr. Halsall, that what you term the “true Genesis” of the article might be here:
http://bajan.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/homosexuality-maybe-linked-to-our-ancestral-experience/#comments
It’s a long thread. Interested readers should tell their browsers to search for the word “giggling”, even though Mr. Halsall has already told us that he rarely giggles.
Dear BFP folks,
Any chance you could release my post of earlier this afternoon? It’s completely harmless and simply an amicable response to the observations of Mr. Living.
Thanks.
***********
BFP says,
Hi Jack, back from lunch and found it in the spam folder. As usual nothing in it seems bad but the computer grabbed it anyway. Thanks for alerting us.
Mr. Browman… You are focusing on something which has already been exhausted.
But, yes, gentle reader… Please do follow Mr. Browman’s link over to BU.
Examine the Entry fully.
And then spend some time perusing the many other “Barbados Underground” Blog Entries where *serious*, *free* and *open* discussion and debate occurs.
(As an aside Mr. Bowman, you have proved in your above “Dear BFP folks… Any chance you could release my post of earlier this afternoon?” that BFP is heavily moderated.)
Unlike here on BFP, “Barbados Underground” is where the serious discussion takes place unfettered (IMHO)…
(But, reader be aware… There aren’t that many Blog Entries about Rihanna….)
Dear Mr. Halsall,
I have asked you before, and I have done so politely. I will do so again. Please stop calling me “Mr. Browman”.
It might seem like a small thing to you, but it matters to me as a matter of basic decorum and courtesy. “Browman” is not the name that my father gave to me. The bowmen of England, often drawn from Wales and always impoverished peasants, were the heroes of Agincourt who saved other peasants from Gallic enslavement.
I do not call you Mr. Hallgrald. Show the most basic respect, please do.
I hope you and yours are well.
Mr. Bowman…
My apologies. I was typing too quickly…
Beside that typo however, I would argue that my above stands.
Best regards to you and yours.
@Chris Halsall, “The above Blog Entry, IMHO, is the true Genesis of Mr. Cumberbatch’s article in the Advocate….” [I will leave those better versed in religion to deal with Genesis. I guess Mr. Cumberbatch will confirm or deny if indeed what you suggest was HIS real starting point. But, there is a sort of Al Gore-ism that suggests ‘in the beginning was BU…and the word was BU…” I’ve generally found that things discussed in Barbados have their origins NOT in things mentioned on the blogs. Otherwise, history would be very foreshortened.
That should not detract from those wishing to finding that the debate on BU is interesting.
Whether the BU discussion is truly ‘free’ and ‘unfettered’ can only be determined by those who know what was submitted and what was approved for publication, which should just be the moderator(s). The rest of us can only make conjectures. Discouraged contributors also count in the assessment of ‘free’ and ‘unfettered’, and that discouragement can come from a range of innocent or malign causes. Causes include discomfort with anonymity in the face of remarks suggesting that a person’s identity even though disguised can be determined and exposed, which would tend to make someone suppress commentary. They also include ‘exclusivity’ remarks that suggest the blog space is only for certain categories of persons.
Chris should know well that both kinds of discouragement exist on BU, but I am not sure if he or anyone else can judge how significant the impact is or has been.
Jeff Cumberbatch’s article raises the important issue that anonymity can give those who wish to be malicious a degree of cover to attack (with limited reproach) those who are named and known. So, the so-called anonymous can inflict harm but are less prone to be harmed. Those who are named and known must be more cautious: if they inflict harm, they are prone to suffer its consequences, and of course can be harmed in their turn.
That lack of symmetry makes notions of ‘free’ speech dubious under such circumstances.
Mr. Halsall says:
“Unlike here on BFP, “Barbados Underground” is where the serious discussion takes place unfettered (IMHO).”
Mr. Halsall, with all respect, are you delusional? If I had a dollar for every message I’ve posted to no avail on Barbados Underground (“where the serious discussion takes place UNFETTERED”), I could take my loved one and my cat for dinner at the Cliff tonight.
All best wishes to you.
@Jack Bowman: “If I had a dollar for every message I’ve posted to no avail on Barbados Underground … I could take my loved one and my cat for dinner at the Cliff tonight.
Well, then, let us simply examine the empirical evidence…
Barbados Underground regularly sees several score of Comments for every Entry…
Sometimes in the hundreds. Occasionally over a thousand…
It the the rare Blog Entry here on BFP which gets more than one or two score (read 20 or 40) of comments…
I leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions….
(P.S. Mr. Bowman — has your post been released yet by BFP, as you requested above?)
PiedPiper
September 21, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Halsall, how sweet…an invitation to BU, no thanks.
You may not post on BU, but you are a spy with no good intentions.
Halsall, just as a matter of interest, how old are you? Is it an intrinsic part of your personality to behave like a peevish, petulant schoolboy?
If BU is such a formidable force in the blogosphere, why do you feel the need to come soliciting here like a “lady of the night”?
@PiedPiper: “…why do you feel the need to come soliciting here like a “lady of the night”?
I am not particularly comfortable with the “message” BFP have been communicating.
I am trying to point out that there are better alternatives to the “consumers”.
Consider it a competitive marketplace for ideas and Free Speech and Open Dialogue.
And to speak to your question directly…
Because I can.
Quote Halsall:
“I am trying to point out that there are better alternatives to the “consumers”.”
Consider it a competitive marketplace for ideas and Free Speech and Open Dialogue.
I don’t know why you keep bandying about that “free speech” nonsense or being “holier than thou” about the fact that Jack Bowman has a post in moderation. It has been pointed out to you and yours, on a number of ocassions by various posters to BU, that their comments have been held in moderation also.
As for “open dialogue”, I’m afraid my interests do not include anti-semitism, xenophobia, homophobia or racial hatred. So you see, I, personally, have no need to indulge in the “open dialogue” you speak of.
@PiedPiper: “As for “open dialogue”, I’m afraid my interests do not include anti-semitism, xenophobia, homophobia or racial hatred. So you see, I, personally, have no need to indulge in the “open dialogue” you speak of.
In just about any “set” of Humans, negative things will sometimes be thought; and even said…
Negative things are thought and said (and even done) on this Earth. I presume, PiedPiper, that you live on this Earth.
Negative things are thought and said (and (perhaps) even done) in the country within which you live. I presume, PiedPiper, that you live in a country.
Negative things are thought and said (and (perhaps) even done) in the family from which you became. I presume, PiedPiper, that you were born into a family.
IMHO, we will never get past negativity without true dialogue.
IMHO, Barbados Underground offers (at least part of) this opportunity.
BFP does not.
(Unless, of course, you spend your entire life in Disney Land, hanging out with the Mouse 24/7/52.)
@Chris Halsall, I would hope that the substance of Jeff Cumberbatch’s arguments are not about if posts on a blog gets lots of comments or not. There’s the old English adage, ‘Never mind the quality, feel the width’. if I put on my economist hat squarely and think hard about what I learned about how alternative products are viewed and developed, I will also recall that scarcity tends to raise the value of a product. In the world of blogging that could lead to an absurd conclusion suggesting that no comments are better than many. But a few choice comments may be worth a hundred inane one (not making any judgement on what I have actually read).
So that Jack Bowman can eat at the Cliff, he may want to take a sample from BU that you both agree and really analyse the comments openly and tell us what they really say.
Debate should be about substance, and it may be reinforced by repetition, but not necessarily. Also, some take the view that if something has been said already there is no need to add or even elaborate. So, what you ask of Mr. Bowman and the conclusions that could be drawn are quite varied.
He made a point about how his contributions were treated, and that is a matter that he has discussed and can continue to discuss with the BU moderator(s).
While I wait for my comments to be cleared (and maybe I see how the WordPress filtering works more or better than Mr. Bowman), I can think about whether or not there is a way to craft comments so that they slip pasts the filters or if I just live with this as an ‘occupational hazard’.
@LIB: “…if I put on my economist hat squarely and think hard about what I learned about how alternative products are viewed and developed, I will also recall that scarcity tends to raise the value of a product.
Ah, but LIB… If you actually thought about this from an economist’s perspective, you might acknowledge that a truly free and open marketplace optimizes the possible opportunities for the consumer….
@LIB… “…I will also recall that scarcity tends to raise the value of a product.
Actually…
Scarcity tends to increase the *cost* of a product. And, yes, its perceived value; over the short term…
But not, I would argue, its fundamental worth, over the long term….
Interesting discussion so far, even if, oddly, BFP did not allow my harmless response to Mr. Living.
But what’s important is to say this: “Let me tell you something you don’t know. White women are so fascinated by black men. They love to do the oral to black men because they think that when they drink our sperm, they getting nourishment, like how you drink milk from the cow. So, knowing this, there are some white men who …”
As the deeply dull would say, that’s key …
@Jack Bowman: “As the deeply dull would say, that’s key …
I am speechless…
That’s a very unusual state for me….
To Jack Bowman
Dammit Jack, we were out for lunch and the spam filter grabbed it. Please don’t be like those losers who, every time the spam filter grabs their comment, blame the moderator when there is no cause to.
If we find your comment held by the spam filter and THEN we don’t approve it you might have cause to criticize. Otherwise you’ll just have to be more patient.
Sometimes we’re here 24/7 to cover the approvals, but lately things have been a little tight financially so we’re all out their working in the real world.
Thanks!
Cliverton
Dumbfounded
September 21, 2009 at 6:55 pm
PiedPiper
September 21, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Halsall, how sweet…an invitation to BU, no thanks.
“You may not post on BU, but you are a spy with no good intentions.”
…….and so this would make YOU what exactly Dumbfounded?
@BFP.Cliverton: “…we were out for lunch and the spam filter grabbed it.
Wow. A four hour lunch…
Must be nice Cliverton…
Where do we sign up?
********************
BFP says,
That’s easy!
Grape Hall
Jack, from the heart. This is not a McDee’s or Chefette. Think of BFP as a full serve restaurant where you get to sit down at a nice table with a view, read the extensive menu and order something worth eating. The restaurant is not full of loud, babbling idiots who have no respect for ambience and punctuate their speech with “ya klown!” and “Laaaaaaard!!!” and “Aaargghhh!!!!” while their unmannerly children race around the tables. “Good things come to those who wait”.
@PiedPiper: “Think of BFP as a full serve restaurant where you get to sit down at a nice table with a view, read the extensive menu and order something worth eating.
Really Piper?
Using your analogy…
I would more model BFP as somewhere where you are told what (very limited selection) is available. And then you are told that you will eat it and enjoy it…
Or else, you can go and open your own restaurant….
@BFP…
Is there any reason why you’re not willing to directly answer questions from your Commentators?
I happened to notice an edit to my Comment dated 2009.09.21.2034 (UTC) which reads:
“********************
“BFP says,
“That’s easy!
“Grape Hall
Three questions:
1. When exactly was this edit made?
2. Who from BFP wrote it?
3. Why must we continually parse your Blogs to determine the often-changing current reality?
Please advise on my immediate above.
Best regards.
Halsall, you like a flea that lost his dog…….guh look fuh yuh dog, do.
@Piper: “…guh look fuh yuh dog, do.
I sense that you are trying to communicate….
@Piper…
Blink your eyes once for no…
Blink your eyes twice for yes….
Chris, you say ‘Scarcity tends to increase the *cost* of a product. And, yes, its perceived value; over the short term…’. There need not be any cost of production. Scarcity is a function of needs and wants, and even free goods (if we want to consider something like air) can be scarce and therefore command a premium price, especially if we have some gauge/guarantee on quality.
In the blog world, a rare comment such as a Minister stating openly, not anonymously, some key commitment by government could be ‘worth’ a lot.
@Chris: ‘Ah, but LIB… If you actually thought about this from an economist’s perspective, you might acknowledge that a truly free and open marketplace optimizes the possible opportunities for the consumer….’ We are discussing what free and open mean, and as yet I do not think there is any agreement. One of my comments yet to appear deals with ‘discouraged’ commentators. If and when that appears we can go back to the ‘market place’ idea.
But if we are talking market then we have to think carefully about what the ‘goods’ are that are being exchanged, and who is supplying and what is the demand. Also, are there prices involved, explicit or implicit?
@LIB: “One of my comments yet to appear deals with ‘discouraged’ commentators. If and when that appears we can go back to the ‘market place’ idea.
Please expand on *exactly* what you mean by your above?
Is this a comment here on BFP, or over on Barbados Underground?
Again, please expand on *exactly* what you mean.
@Jack Bowman: ‘I’d say that the credibility is in the writing, not in the name. Depending on the material, the credibility might also be in the information imparted, but in the end it’s always the writing that makes the difference between credibility and derision.’ I agree totally. What I mean about credibility and anonymity relates a little to my comment above about a Minister. If an anonymous commentator says something of substance that one test of it could be how do we know this is true? That may need you to know who made the remark. Simple example: Anonymous writes “Jack Bowman is a kind father.” That remark is very different if we know that it comes from Mrs. Bowman, Jack’s mother or Mrs. Bowman, Jack’s wife.
I hope that makes my view a bit clearer.
There are many good sounding comments that I see but they need to be tempered by the possibility that there is nothing real or true behind them, and in an area where many of us may be lay persons, we need some assurances about credibility and honesty, or lack of it. I think that comes easier with known entities.
@Chris. There are two comments I made earlier that have yet to appear. I cannot expand exactly because whatever is blocking the comments (I assume it is in spam) will get triggered if I repeat the post.
A general point I made in one of those comments is that there are potential and actual commentators on BU who are ‘discouraged’ by what may be perceived as threatening remarks. To the extent that they are lost to the debate the idea of free and open is dubious.
@Chris, if you are going to introduce the idea of a market place then I will take that as far as it can go. It will mean that we have to agree on what is being exchanged, who are the suppliers and demanders, what will we say is the price, and how will disputes be resolved. I don’t want to go into that at length as it’s a notion that I do not think works for blog commentary, but you may feel it is apt.
@LIB: “There are two comments I made earlier that have yet to appear.
Are these comments on this Blog? Here on BFP?
@LIB: “A general point I made in one of those comments is that there are potential and actual commentators on BU who are ‘discouraged’ by what may be perceived as threatening remarks. To the extent that they are lost to the debate the idea of free and open is dubious.
You have got to be joking!
You are now making predictions based on “potential … commentators on BU who are ‘discouraged’ by what may be perceived as threatening remarks…
Let me please re-quote you, with my highlights: “what *may* *be* *preceived*…
You really are a piece of work LIB….
@LIB: “@Chris, if you are going to introduce the idea of a market place then I will take that as far as it can go.
Actually, LIB, please note the public record… *YOU* introduced the idea of a market place, in your post on this very Blog dated 2008.09.21.1938 UTC.
I simply adapted to the metaphor, and was more than ready and able to beat you within the analogy.
And now you back away… Tail between your legs… Claiming you didn’t say that.
Got anything else LIB?
@Chris, the comments are on BFP in this thread. I referred to actual and potential commentators. Both are valid as would be the case of a free and open electoral system. If eligible voters are discouraged we usually see that as bad for democracy. Hence the drive to ensure that people are not disenfranchised.
If you think that everyone regards being insulted (as an example) in the same way then I would really challenge that. If such is the norm then those who have valid comments but do not like being insulted will not get into the free. Let’s say that the kitchen is too hot for them. You cannot then sing the praises of the kitchen just because of those who like to sit by the heat. The kitchen could be a better place for many more ‘cooks’ if the heat were turned down. I wont push the metaphor too far. I think this is not trivial for those who may wish to debate openly under their proper names. It may also be true for those who live by pseudonyms.
Whether I am ‘a piece of work’ we can debate. If you mean difficult then that may be that I do not take things at face value. I’ve said that many times. But some would also say you too are a piece of work. I’m not sure what that tells me or us.
If we are talking about debate and discussion then I hope that we can deal with all the complexities.
But here is another point. Take a look back at your own comments in this thread and honestly tell us how you would react to each of them if they were made TO YOU. I am not judging.
@LIB…
I must apologize to you. I did indeed introduce the concept of a marketplace.
Chris, our searches may give different results: This post seems to be the first that mentions market, it looks like 19.12 UTC, which seems ahead of my time:
‘Christopher Halsall
September 21, 2009 at 7:12 pm
@PiedPiper: “…why do you feel the need to come soliciting here like a “lady of the night”?
I am not particularly comfortable with the “message” BFP have been communicating.
I am trying to point out that there are better alternatives to the “consumers”.
Consider it a competitive marketplace for ideas and Free Speech and Open Dialogue.
And to speak to your question directly…
Because I can.’
If I am mistaken then please show how. Thanks.
@Chris, jolly good. Our posts crossed. We are agreed. I do try to get my facts straight and I do not jump to insult.
That latter point does not make me better but makes me ‘a piece of work’. If and when my other comments appear, I may do too. Kids need help with homework now.
Mr. Halsall is ready to deliver one of his learned, seasoned, and much-sought opinions.
Here it is: “I am speechless… That’s a very unusual state for me….”
Thanks for that, Mr. Halsall. Or may I call you Mr. Hrswlallfg?
Mr. Halsall, you make me smile. Of all the comical subliterate racist xenophobes in the place that you prefer, you make me smile the most.
You’re right. You are speechless. Oddly, despite your obvious speechlessness, you always have something to say. Depressingly often, what you have to say is dull.
I have something to say. Here it is: Let me tell you something you don’t know. White women are so fascinated by black men. They love to do the oral to black men because they think that when they drink our sperm, they getting nourishment, like how you drink milk from the cow. So, knowing this, there are some white men who …
All best wishes to you, Mr. Halsall.
And to you, Mr. Bowman….
Please note BFP…
This is not Judo…
My questions to you still stand.
@ Chris
Why waste time with Pied Piper et al. Do you realize that you are increasing their comment numbers which they love to boast about. rolleyes
Had not for the many threads that you engage with the Piper & LIB, the number of comments on this post would still be down on the totem pole.
Btw, have you given thought that Pied Piper may be one of the BFP associates that run this blog.
@BFP…
You are strangely silent…
What says you?
Christopher,
Please do not post multiple similar comments throughout the blog on different articles. Perhaps by the end of our series you will see where we stand. Perhaps not.
Perhaps by the end of our series our readers and the general public will have a better idea about where you and your BU comrades stand on various issues. Perhaps not.
For those people who think that anonymity is something they can control, I suggest reading an article in The Economist, http://www.economist.com/businessfinance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14413380, which discusses ‘employee monitoring’. Companies are spending more on security software. Reasons for monitoring may be legitimate, eg. to reduce industrial espionage or protect sensitive information. Companies also have concerns about employees use of malicious software, often inadvertently through viruses, but which nevertheless can infect networks. Note that some companies can monitor employees outside the company network, with web browsing data flowing back to HQ.
None of this may actually be used in Bim at the moment, but with such potential already available, it may only be a matter of time.
There is a good adage. If you do not want to see reprinted with your name something you have read, or written, or said, or did, then the solution is in your hands (or at your fingertips).
@BFP…
Now I’m beginning to understand… (Please forgive me; I’m rather slow.)
There is no one at the helm here at BFP most of the time, is there?
You’re on auto-pilot most of the time, with the auto-pilot instructed to be extremely cautious…
Look forward to the rest of your series….
Mr. Halsall asserts, bafflingly and with the standard Bajan pointless but smile-inducing capitalisation: “Please note BFP… This is not Judo…”
Nice. Bright, too.
A guy walks into a bar …
… sees a sign on the wall.
The sign says: “Cheese sandwich, $3.50. Chicken sandwich, $4.00. Hand-job, $5.00.”
The guy checks his wallet, signals to the waitress.
He says: “Are you the one doing the hand-jobs?”
She says: “Yeah.”
He says: “Go wash your hands, I want a cheese sandwich.”
For those of you not giggling, I have an alternative. Here it is:
“One thing I pride myself on from early is knowing what happens in the lives of our people in Barbados … Let me tell you something you don’t know. White women are so fascinated by black men. They love to do the oral to black men because they think that when they drink our sperm, they getting nourishment, like how you drink milk from the cow … Well, for those who giggling, I like Sparrow, never had a white meat yet.”
http://bajan.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/homosexuality-maybe-linked-to-our-ancestral-experience/#comments
And the guy said: “I’m serious. The dipstick actually SAID that. In public. Can you believe it? And some other dipstick actually gave him a forum to say it. You really have to wonder about where financing agencies are putting their money. And wash your hands, or take a shower, because I just want a cheese sandwich.”
Mr. Halsall has an opinion to share. Here it is: “Barbados Underground is where the SERIOUS DISCUSSION TAKES PLACE UNFETTERED.”
Now, that’s nice, Mr. Halsall. Do you mind if we try a little experiment? I will post the message below on Barbados Underground and Barbados Free Press simultaneously.
Don’t get tense. Don’t be apprehensive. It’s just a little test. It’s almost a thought experiment.
Here’s the text of the message:
Mr. ROK,
Seeing as how you are a “BU family member” and also ”indefatigable”, can you confirm that this is your opinion:
“One thing I pride myself on from early is knowing what happens in the lives of our people in Barbados … Let me tell you something you don’t know. White women are so fascinated by black men. They love to do the oral to black men because they think that when they drink our sperm, they getting nourishment, like how you drink milk from the cow … Well, for those who giggling, I like Sparrow, never had a white meat yet.”
http://bajan.wordpress.com/2009/07/28/homosexuality-maybe-linked-to-our-ancestral-experience/#comments
Many thanks.
Mr. Bowman…
You seem to have a lot of issues with what people say…
Would you prefer that speech be regulated and controlled, dare anyone say anything you don’t agree with?
@ Mr. Halsall
No. But thanks for asking.
Best wishes to you.
Mr. Bowman
So, then, what is the issue, exactly?
Mr. Halsall,
There isn’t an “issue”. Idiots see “issues”. Idiots see “challenges” and “stakeholders”.
Memorably, idiots ask things like this: “Is there a role for other stakeholders to push the awareness factor?”
http://bajan.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/when-will-barbadian-consumers-understand-they-have-the-power/#comment-110834
You have to read it twice before you even to begin to grasp what the idiot is trying, desperately, to say.
Only idiots write and think like that. I don’t have an “issue”, Mr. Halsall. I have a respect for writing and thought.
So, Mr. Bowman…
Mr. King is an “idiot” for trying to educate Bajan consumers on inherent power they hold, if only they would wield it?
Forgive me for this, for I am obviously also an idiot. But it seems to me that you have issues….
Mr. Halsall, the comment that Mr. Bowman refers to was not made by Mr. King. Don’t turn this into something that it is not. Perhaps you should find the post and who made it and things may become a little clearer.
@PP…
Terribly sorry for not being able to keep up to speed with who Mr. Browman has the hard-on for in each of his posts…
Like I said above, I’m slow, and an idiot….
Quote (Dumb)founded: “Btw, have you given thought that Pied Piper may be one of the BFP associates that run this blog.”
Wow! What an exciting internet life I have. I am “Sargeant” and Patrick Porter and now I am a BFP “associate”. Does this mean I get to go out for a drink with them on Friday evenings? The job should have some perks
Mr. Halsall addresses Ms. Piper and raises an endlessly fascinating question.
First, here’s Mr. Halsall:
“Terribly sorry for not being able to keep up to speed with who Mr. Browman has the hard-on for in each of his posts…”
Second, and purely as a sidebar, shouldn’t that be “with whom”, Mr. Halsall? Perhaps not. Your relentless and apparently irremediable misspelling of the very easy surname “Bowman” is something that I choose, for now, to ascribe to inadvertent typing rather than to deliberate disrespect.
But third, and most importantly, what exactly is the plural of “hard-on”? If I have a “hard-on” for several people, are they “hard-ons” or “hards-on”? I have consulted the Chicago Manual of Style (ed 15) and Hart’s Rules, among others, and all reliable sources are silent on this matter.
Do you have an opinion, Mr. Halsall? After all, you have an opinion about everything else.
Did I ever tell you the joke about white women getting nourishment from a cow? If not, don’t hesitate to ask me to tell it here. It’s a blast. Really, really funny.
@Dumbfounded: “Why waste time with Pied Piper et al. Do you realize that you are increasing their comment numbers which they love to boast about. rolleyes
My apologies Dumbfounded. I did not notice your post until just now. I suspect it was in “moderation” for quite some time…
To speak to your question directly, all I choose say is there is method to my madness….
@Mr. Bowman…
I have to admit (as I have before), I’m not very good with Human languages. I prefer Perl, C, or Java…
And I’ve never been able to get my head around who vs. whom. Hell, it took me years to understand the difference between to, too and two…
This is why I prefer to have an editor trained in the language between me and my readers, to catch such mistakes.
But to speak to your question directly above, my layman’s opinion is the plural of “hard-on” is “hard-ons”.
Mr. Halsall strives for irony and fails epically, almost majestically, but his option for self-deprecation is both admirable and worthy of note. Here’s Mr. Halsall:
“Like [he means “as”] I said above, I’m slow, and an idiot…”
Perhaps you’re being a little hard on yourself there, Mr. Halsall. I don’t know you from Adam and I don’t care to.
Nonetheless, from what little I’ve read of your writing, I suspect you wouldn’t write this:
“Is there a role for other stakeholders to push the awareness factor?”
We’ve had the Bourne Identity and the Osterman Weekend, why shouldn’t we have the Awareness Factor? In fact, you could probably boil down all of Hamlet to make it “The Elsinore Conundrum”.
You can see, on a second reading and through the smile, what the man was trying to say by “the Awareness Factor”. But even when you grasp it, it still makes you laugh out loud.
All best wishes to you, Mr. Halsall. In previous exchanges you have doubted my sincerity when I have offered condolences for the loss of your cat. As a cat owner (actually, as someone who seems to be owned by a cat), I offer those condolences again. And I do so in all sincerity.
@Messrs Halsall and Bowman, taking Chris at his word, if he puts forward a need for an ‘editor’ to be between him and his comments, then I would ask if he has someone review his comments before being posted. He and I have been in touch by e-mail and if he wants to (at least for a while and accepting that it will slow things down), I would be glad to review his comments before they are posted. I do know the difference between to, too, two, who, whom, and many other things to do with English.
But, I don’t think it’s really necessary. Most of his substantive points are clear. As the thread is about freedom of speech then I would suggest that he express himself freely and others try their best to understand.
But, you both seem to be having fun, and for those who count comments, they must be glad.
No reply to me needed on the thread. You can each find me by e-mail.
@LIB: “…taking Chris at his word, if he puts forward a need for an ‘editor’ to be between him and his comments, then I would ask if he has someone review his comments before being posted.
You have misread me.
I didn’t say I *need* an editor. I said I prefer one.
But then, I’m able to debate verbally in real time (although there are a few words I can’t pronounce (I have a bit of both a speech and hearing impediment)), so I am comfortable posting my written language unreviewed…
Thanks though….
Mr. Bowman…
Language evolves…
Have you ever read the amazing book “The Professor and the Madman”?
Subtitle: “A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of the Oxford English Dictionary”.
A jolly good read!
I highly recommend it….
Halsall, I believe in fighting fair and not to deliberately impune someone’s character until they prove, nce and for all, that they have no character.
Dumbfounded’s rather dumb comment has been on the blog, visible to all, since yesterday afternoon. I only chose to respond to his comment late last night. There was no moderation of his or my comment. Perhaps if you spent a little less time making like the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland you would be able to see things more clearly.
Quote: “To speak to your question directly, all I choose say is there is method to my madness….”
Well, finally you own up to it………
You win here, Mr. Halsall. I lose. For now. I concede the defeat, but only for now.
In a completely unrepresentative poll using a tiny sample, with a margin of error of no less than 87%, the results were as follows:
An overwhelming majority favoured your preference of “hard-ons”. That majority included but is not restricted to: the lady on the scooter who delivers my mail; all the guys on the truck that took away my garbage this morning (4 guys); my next-door neighbor, who (whom?) I caught while I was polling the 4 guys on the garbage truck; and the entire staff at the friendly gas station in Oistins where I buy my newspapers.
The minority preference (which is mine, for “hards-on”) was shared only by a Bajan lady who cleans a house close to mine, and a Swiss lady who happened to be jogging past my house while I was talking to the garbage guys.
@Chris, your stated preference has been interpreted as a need because of the way I see its absence working out. But, as you declined the offer, no worry. Real time commenting gives some sense of true dialogue, perhaps, but it’s an illusion. I’ve also wondered if there is the need for commentary on every point. Each will make his or her own decision. My preference these days is to pick my poison, and decide what’s really a priority.
I’ll try your arguments on the 6 year olds sitting with me and see how they work it out.
Have fun. The offer stands if you change your mind.
@LIB… I have to admit, you are quite clever…
However…
I would ague that it is two quite separate things to have an “editor” review and edit your language before publication (working in your and their best interests)…
…and having a “moderator” take their sweet time to release your language exactly as written (protecting their best interests)…
Am I wrong?
What do your six year olds say to this question?
@Chris, I will take the complement. I have tried to explain that what motives me is seeing improvements rather than victories (or losses). But some are driven to make competition even where none exists.
Your distinction between editor and moderator are taken. However, the moderator does not necessarily control the flow on WordPress, unless he/they/she is on the monitor all the time. (I do not know if any of the blogs promise that, but it has become accepted that immediate publication is the norm. That’s a cross that may have to be borne.) My own WP blog does not flag spam, so I have to search to find it. That’s one reason I use it rarely. Blogger sends everything through to me by e-mail.
The six year olds have decided to tackle their differences on a gender basis and determine their next action after dolls and soccer balls have been played with. They have not yet read this. I may have had the heart to let them read this thread
s/b I have not had the heart to…
Mr. Halsall,
May I ask you a personal question? If the question is problematic in any way, please ignore it.
Here’s the question: “Is there a role for other stakeholders to push the Awareness Factor?”
What do you think?
Thanks.
@Mr. Bowman: “May I ask you a personal question? … Is there a role for other stakeholders to push the Awareness Factor?
1. That’s not a personal question.
2. IMHO, absolutely…
2.1. “Stakeholder(s)” is defined as anyone who might have an interest in the matter at hand.
2.2. “Awareness Factor” should be self explanatory.
Step right up!
Best regards to you and yours….
hi anonlegal (ooops!!) I mean Jeff.
——
No J. I am not Jeff but I suspect I know what handle he uses.
LIB ‘The six year olds have decided to tackle their differences on a gender basis and determine their next action after dolls and soccer balls have been played with’ for a moment there methought you were talking about the folks at BU.
Then I read some more and realised that a couple of others were having a private tete-a-tete about conundrums, personal questions and other more personal matters.
@Anonlegal, I’ve read the Jeff Cumberbatch article several times now, and keep getting stuck at the beginning by: ‘It is that I frequently read the popular local ‘blogs, Barbados Underground and Barbados Free Press, and on one or two occasions, I have even gone out on a figurative limb and contributed to them; pseudonymously, of course.’ I struggle to believe that his forays have really only been ‘one or two occasions’ given that he reads the blogs ‘frequently’. If he is being economical with the truth, why should he do that?
Of course, given that he comments publicly already it is mighty strange why he should feel the need to comment pseudonymously. What has he had to say that he could not say openly?
I look forward to the rest of his discussion, noting that he does not promise answers to the kind of question I pose.
@Libertarian, glad that you read some more. Context is always important.
Halsall September 21 6:14pm
‘Unlike here on BFP, “Barbados Underground” is where the serious discussion takes place unfettered (IMHO)…
(But, reader be aware… There aren’t that many Blog Entries about Rihanna….)’
…………………………………………………
Obviously you mean aside from a current blog where she is called names by two commentors, one with an anonymous ‘handle’ and one not. Words like …. and …. and then ‘promiscuous’.
In the context given, the meaning of the word ‘promiscuous’ is clear.
A ‘REAL’ classy blog, yeah right. Same one supposedly promoting ‘standards’ and has the gall to suggest in yes, a blog about her a few weeks back that suggested her ambassador title be taken away. Because of her actions?
Hypocrites.
But then maybe the editor is merely being ‘indefatigable’, in refusing to edit anything.
@Libertarian et al… It will never fail to amaze me how some readers read what they want to interpret, rather than what is actually said.
If I may, please let me map the language I wrote into Math; perhaps then what I wrote will be clearer…
Lets define “Number of Entries about Rihanna” as X.
Thus, “There aren’t that many Blog Entries about Rihanna” means that X is small (read: a low positive number), but greater than zero….