Elephant In The Room? What Elephant?
“I do not see a major negative impact on property values. In other words, people will have a shock… people will probably stay away from places that look like they have a cave but generally speaking I believe that prices would remain fairly steady.”
… Real Estate Agent George “Mellow” Ramsay commenting on whether apartment buildings falling into caves in the middle of the night just might change the real estate and homebuilding business in Barbados.
How Does A Person Identify Which Homes “Look like they have a cave”?
The spin doctors are trying desperately to calm down the masses with assurances that the cave-in problem is only in one very teensy-weensy area – but according to two real estate agents we’ve spoken with, folks are walking from already-written deals across the island unless tests are now done. As one chap put, “After Brittons Hill, who in their right mind would close a deal anywhere in Barbados without tests and assurances.”
Meanwhile, those special connected people who have access to government cave maps and data are scrambling to try and determine if their homes are worth what they hope they are. The vast majority of Bajan homeowners are also quickly waking up to the fact that the government cave maps are now the key to land values – but they are being denied access to the information by a corrupt government. (See Dear Prime Minister: Publish All Cave Maps And Data Now!)
The Nation News avoided talking about the subject for a week, but in the end they had to write something about the Barbados real estate meltdown express train that everyone hears coming down the track…
Property values ‘down the drain’
Properties near the ill-fated apartment complex at Arch Cot Terrace, Brittons X Road, St Michael, are valueless, says a realtor.
In addition, managing director of Big Mac Realty, Reverend Dr Gordon Matthews, said he believed the tragic incident, in which the complex plunged at least 50 feet into a cave last week Sunday, would usher in a new dispensation in “building and valuing”.
“In the immediate area, it is my opinion from what I have been reading in the papers from the experts that those properties along the fault line would be valueless because they are on a cave.
“This also brings about a new dispensation in building and valuing. Perhaps, we never thought about caves until this happened. We never thought about testing the ground before any development takes place, so I believe that this is now going to be introduced before any building or passing of land for development takes place to ensure that it is solid and the foundation would not present a danger in the future,” he told THE DAILY NATION.
… continue reading this article at The Nation News (link here)
28 Comments
September 5, 2007 at 1:48 am
Most houses in Barbados have to have a suckwell on the property typically 20 to 30 ft deep.
If you do not encounter caves while digging the SuckWell, chances are that you are on solid rock.
Also, if you encounter solid rock when preparing your Foundation, chances are that you are “safe”.
If the same conditions exist on your neighbours properties then it is likely that you are all OK.
If you have reason to believe you are in an unsafe house, then get it checked by professionals.
Does anyone know of a house falling into a cave anytime in the last 50 years?
It would be interesting to know.
September 5, 2007 at 2:15 am
I know lots of houses with strange holes in the yard. Bathsheba is riddled with them. People fill them with marl when they have a bottom but that hides the problem.
Lots of places that don’t look right to build on and I’m not a builder and they don’t look right to me. But how am I supposed to really know before I buy a home? If the government has all this knowledge about caves and landshifts why can’t we know about it too?
September 5, 2007 at 2:33 am
anonymous get a life those are crabholes.
September 5, 2007 at 2:42 am
STATUS OF HAZARD MAPS, VULNERABILITY ASSESSMENTS AND DIGITAL MAPS
BARBADOS COUNTRY REPORT — CDERA 2003
http://www.cdera.org/projects/cadm/docs/barbados_hmvadm.pdf
September 5, 2007 at 2:50 am
No not crab holes. deep crevases an holes that spread out further they go deep. Not talking crab holes.
September 5, 2007 at 2:56 am
I didn’t even know we had any land crabs left in Barbados, after the vast spread of the concrete jungle.
September 5, 2007 at 3:01 am
have anybody heard about a cave in on a road in ?I hope this is an isolated incident!
September 5, 2007 at 9:26 am
Land slippage on the east coast is a common and obvious feature.
If you drive along the Ermie Bourne Highway and look west, up slope, you can see the undulations and smooth hillocks, consistent with a gradual flow of top soil down the slope.
I can image that large splits will be visible in some situations when chunks of soil come loose and slide down.
I am always amazed to see block wall construction anywhere north of Bathsheba. If the foundations do NOT contain enough steel there will be cracks as local subsidence occurs under them. If the foundations DO contain enough then the risk is the whole building will slide downslope.
In my opinion, housing on the east coast should be wood frame so that it can flex a bit to cope with the inevitable. It will also be much easier to repair and adjust.
September 5, 2007 at 10:23 am
The matter of the horrific cave-in tragedy at Brittons Hill and the controversy that has followed concerning this BLP Government having in its possession information, data, and maps about the cave networkings and other underground phenomena in Barbados – intellectual work that it seems reluctant to release to the public, or that it does NOT want as yet to release to the public – must surely be seen in the light of having a central theme running through them of how many aspects of this made-made economic system in Barbados will inevitably conflict with the laws and facts of nature, but in the end also will have to bow to them no matter how imperial they appear.
Therefore, that is why the People’s Democratic Congress (PDC) in many of its perspectives, ideologies, policy measures and programs, have found it ABSOLUTELY necessary and EMINENTLY logical to have engineered these same perspectives, ideologies, policy perpectives and programs based on a quite naturalist philosophy of how human society should be constructed in a state of nature, which if Barbadians think seriously about these dimensions they will realize that the coming to office of a PDC Government is really what is required for Barbados at this juncture, so that Barbadians and others will be able to live far better lives and carry out business in a far greater and more efficient environment that now.
With regard to the strong belief of many Barbadians that if and when such information, data or maps about the cave networkings and other undergound phenomena are released by this BLP Government that, as a consequence of any such release, there will become many valueless properties or significant declines in the value of properties in Barbados, esp. those building that are built over caves, would it NOT be appropriate NOW to consider establishing a culture of property (ONLY buildings) that really reflects the value added of these properties, and that rightly does away with these exorbitant or otherwise property values that underscore the massive exploitation of our masses/middle classes??
That is why a newly elected PDC Government shall make sure that LAND related RIGHTS ACQUIRED, whether bought sold or leased, will be done so ONLY at nominal/administrative costs in Barbados. FOR IT IS A TOTAL UNMITIGATED LIE BY ECONOMICS THAT LAND IS PROPERTY, AND CAN THEREFORE BE BOUGHT, SOLD OR LEASED!!
September 5, 2007 at 10:32 am
Apparently it is not on the east cost. It is on Plumgrove, off Lodge Road, Christ Church. Outside the residence of Betty Thorpe. A drop of about 40 feet. SSA truck feel into the hole. The hole is about 30 feet deep and 6 to 10 feet wide.
September 5, 2007 at 10:32 am
Sorry…that should have been “fell into the hole”.
September 5, 2007 at 10:55 am
I will take my chances, and hopefully be able to buy one of these cheap homes, Horray! Barbados real estate prices going to drop. Now the poor man will get some property. Beware of gremlins!
September 5, 2007 at 11:08 am
Better hope the insurance companies do not put in a limitation clause re subsistence on new policies, or else not one condo will now be sold until a geological survey is done islandwide and published for all to see.
September 5, 2007 at 11:51 am
Yes indeed..the PlumGrove incident happened!
Barbados Swiss Cheese is being nibbled at by subterranean rats and mice.
That’s why it’s collapsing.
What a thing, nuh!
September 5, 2007 at 11:52 am
We should soon be hearing from Ian Bourne
with a PR explanation from SSA, of whuh guddung!
September 5, 2007 at 11:56 am
Rumpy is right!
The insurance boys not gyne pay out one cent.
Their list of NoPays is far far longer than the short list of Pays you get with your policy!
Wunnuh gyne get RIP!
Not a cent in compensation gyne get pay out, wait and see!
Betty Thorpe house ain’t worth a cent right now and she must be still paying mortgage pun it!
Betty,girl,
I’d give you a hundred for it right now,
but I gyne want-back CHANGE, yuh hear?
September 5, 2007 at 12:33 pm
What if the ‘rock’ you meet while digging foundation is the boulder at the top of the cave? How would you know? I think a few holes should be sunk to check each property because one or two may just be in the outside wall of an underground cave and the rest of the property be over the cave. Can we ever be certain of safety?
September 5, 2007 at 12:55 pm
On September 5th, 2007 at 12:33 pm, The Falcon said:
What if the ‘rock’ you meet while digging foundation is the boulder at the top of the cave? How would you know?
——
Crusty: You would not know unless someone with ground penetrating radar or similar device had done a survey for you at significant cost.
——
The Falcon said: I think a few holes should be sunk to check each property because one or two may just be in the outside wall of an underground cave and the rest of the property be over the cave.
——
Crusty: As the owner of a piece of property you are within your rights to pay for any survey you want, with the intent to increase your knowledge of the underlying geology.
——
The Falcon said: Can we ever be certain of safety?
——
Crusty: In a word, no.
September 5, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Land Tax bills will shortly be arriving on your doorstep!
DO NOT PAY THEM.
Do Not Pay Your Land Tax Bill
until you have assurance from Government
via their caves map,
that your property has Real Value,
and is not situated over a cave.
For all you know, your property might be worth as much as an apartment bldg in Brittons Hill,
or Betty’s house in PlumGrove,
which right now ain’t worth one red cent!
DO NOT pay your Land tax bill.
Not unless it is accompanied by a sectional map showing your land, where your house is situated,
where the nearest caves are
- and also encompassing at least 2-3 neighbours’ properties away from you! – and their caves!!
September 5, 2007 at 1:54 pm
I am really not intrested in my neighbour’s caves hahaha.
September 5, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Sinkhole Incident No.1
The lady in Long Gap, Spooners Hill,
whose backyard and inside flooring has been collapsing for some weeks/months prior to
Sinkhole Incident No.2
which involved the loss of an entire Apartment building in Brittons Hill
and killed a young family of five.
Sinkhole Incident No.3
Government of Barbados loses one of its expensive Sanitation Services trucks to a sudden sinkhole, around 8 p.m. in Plumgrove, Ch.Ch.
Sinkhole Incident No.4
Coming soon to an area close to you!
Look for it.
__________________
What’s under YOUR house?
DO NOT PAY YOUR LAND TAX BILL
until you’ve see the Government’s Caves Map
and your property is ‘free and clear’
- of being swallowed up!
September 5, 2007 at 1:58 pm
“I am really not intrested in my neighbour’s caves hahaha.” he bravely said…
oh YEAH? – ha ha ha!
dat doan affect you? ha ha HA!
Ask Betty’s neighbour how concerned they are about the cave-in at Plumgrove.
September 5, 2007 at 7:35 pm
In my opinion, being of the area, there are no caves, sinkholes at Bathsheba. What we have are lots of gullies and land slides. Any holes are crab holes. When I was a kid, you were not allowed to build wall houses from Tent Bay to Cattlewash. Now they are popping up all over the place. When the land moves, these houses will crack starting at the foundation, until the house becomes unlivable. We have had to move our board and shingle several times over the years as the gullies encroached.
On the other hand, I know of one person whose house is built on a rock who came across a cave when he was digging for his well. He was not sure how deep it was or how far it ran. The good thing is that his house is also board and shingle and quite small.
I was told by a prominent local, that a good friend of his when he was building his home in St. James in the early 1990’s came across a cave while digging his well. Rather than closing it up and trying another spot, the educated man, used it as his septic system. My friend was horrified, as he was of the opinion that the St. James cave system is connected to the Harrisons Cave network. He was concerned about all the sewage that was being flushed into the caves by this ‘educated man’, and where it would eventually end up.
September 6, 2007 at 1:15 am
On September 5th, 2007 at 7:35 pm Pat said:
the St. James cave system is connected to the Harrisons Cave network. He was concerned about all the sewage that was being flushed into the caves by this ‘educated man’, and where it would eventually end up.
———
St. James caves are downhill from Harrison’s Cave so your educated man might just be getting his sewage diluted by the water flowing through Harrison’s and not the other way round. What the bugs don’t eat gets flushed out to sea where the plankton eat it.
September 6, 2007 at 2:55 am
Crusty, I hope you are right. I dont know the area at all.
September 6, 2007 at 5:53 am
crossroads ? What’s up with you? Real Estate prices dropping.. a good thing?
Please, ohh uninformed one that a large part of our Banks’ security is held in Real Estate. What happens when these values plummet, those borrowing money will be forced to pay out all loans on the assets if they can’t raise more equity (a process which would probably require more loans) and eventually all the banks will be foreclosing on loans because that’s what their paperwork indicates this must do…
I guess to you this means nothing. But when the banks’ acquire all these useless, declining-on-value homes and the stability of the local economy starts to teeter a bit when they all realise that everything they were banking on just fell from beneath them (yes, pun intended) that all the “poor men” as you stated will not be able to afford homes. Mostly because the risk factor of homes will go through the roof and lending facilities will immediate be running scared.
If the real estate market becomes unstable we will lose significant foreign exchange, general economic stability and those who can’t afford homes now will be in an even worse position when nobody’s financing.
Be careful what you wish for!
September 6, 2007 at 10:11 am
where is plumgrove?
September 6, 2007 at 11:28 am
This Plumgrove incident is being remarkably hushed-up, even by Barbados Free Press.
One would have thought that now there have been THREE separate sinkhole incidents revealed within a month that SOMEone would be on the ball.
Obviously The Capt. has made his phone calls, and instructions have been issued.
Plumgrove is (I believe) in the Gall Hill area
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BFP Comments
We’ve been busy Anon. Something like that hushed up by BFP? Are you nuts?
Give us a few more details folks. Anyone have a photo?